Red Dirt Border Collie Ranch

[Dragoon 45]

Anyone know anything about Red Dirt Border Collies in Perkins, Oklahoma? A young lady I know asked me about them and I know nothing. I tried a Google search and all I found was a facebook page with lots of pictures of the current litter of pups. There was nothing about who the parents and pups are registered through. From the limited info I saw they do not appear to breeding for color, yet nothing was said about their parents working ability and lines that I saw. I have asked around locally, but no one seems to know more than that they have heard the name before.

 

So I am unable to give my friend any info. Any help would be appreciated so I can give her some sort of answer.

[Sue R]

They are advertising *on Craigslist* that they have two litters right now. That's about as big a red flag as I can think of. I would say, knowing nothing else, to stay far away from any breeder that sells pups on Craigslist. Period.

[Gloria Atwater]

On their Facebook page, I see a lot of red and tri, which suggests an interest in breeding for color - and further down, one all WHITE puppy, which is a big no-no. Actually, it looks like there may be a white puppy from another litter, though they're labeling it "gold/lemon." So, are they happily breeding potentially deaf/blind puppies, too?

I'd say these people are not breeding for anything good. LOTS of puppies on that FB page and not one thing about the parents, whether they work or what they are used for. Besides breeding.

Highly suspicious, in my book.

~ Gloria

P.S.

Craigslist = a HUGE red flag. Huge.

[juliepoudrier]

On their Facebook page, I see a lot of red and tri, which suggests an interest in breeding for color - and further down, one all WHITE puppy, which is a big no-no.

 

 

 

 

Not arguing in favor of this breeder for all the reasons already mentioned, but just wanted to say that an all-white or mostly white pup, in and of itself, would not be enough to turn me off a litter (assuming it was a well-bred working litter, which these are likely not). But if there were all sorts of merles in candy colors, then I'd be very suspicious of white dogs....

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

I just had to comment on the white pup. They replied that she is not white, she is "golden" or "red ee" and that she has reddish pigmentation on her ears.

Okay. Not sure what to make of that, but okay. Genetics whiz folks, any opinions?

In photos, it looks like maybe the ears are colored like a very, very, VERY diluted red point Siamese.

~ Gloria

[terrecar]

Do all white Border Collies appear very often in litters that are not double merle? (I am unfamiliar with the genetics here and just curious.)

[Gloria Atwater]

Thanks, Julie. I agree. They have a lot of red and tri pups, but no merles. But Craigslist does set off flares and flags in my head!

Terrecar, I second your question! I've never seen a pup this pale in a litter that was not due to merle genes, so I'm curious, too.

~ Gloria

[Grizel]

One rule of thumb I always use when looking is website is to ask where the emphasis is. If the focus is on puppies (like this breeder's FB page), then I steer clear. I love to see breeders who are proud of their breeding stock and want to tell us all about the parents and their accomplishments.

[Liz P]

If they are ee red pups they are from show lines. Never seen an ee red in working dogs. Looked like they had that color in 2 litters? Screams color breeder.

[juliepoudrier]

ee red is Aussie red. It's actually true "red" as what we call red (bb) is really brown/liver. It is common in Aus/NZ show lines.

 

You can get pups with a lot of white if you breed two white factored dogs.

 

My main work dog is Pip. This is a photo of him loading sheep into the pen at Donald's. It's not a great picture, but it does show how much white he has, though is head is classically marked (black mask with blaze).

 

J.

 

 

[GentleLake]

I just had to comment on the white pup. They replied that she is not white, she is "golden" or "red ee" and that she has reddish pigmentation on her ears.

 

 

ee red is Australian red, right? If so, the pup's nose leather should be black. Can't tell from the picture.

 

Some Aussie reds can be quite light. AFAIK, it's the same color as Golden Retrievers, and they range from cream to an almost Irish Setter red.

 

But it does seem like they have a few more than normal colors going on, so I'd think of them as color breeders.

[GentleLake]

You can get pups with a lot of white if you breed two white factored dogs.

 

Some dogs throw white pups even when bred to a dog that isn't white factored. My Kate was one that did.

 

My main work dog is Pip. This is a photo of him loading sheep into the pen at Donald's. It's not a great picture, but it does show how much white he has, though is head is classically marked (black mask with blaze).

 

 

I think that now (post AKC) they call this extreme white.

[Dragoon 45]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

[KnottyClarence]

was reading their FB page and someone told the breeder in a comment that if they don't refer to the puppy as "white" no one will ask about it being deaf. Breeder says "good idea' and starts referring to the puppy as " Goldie". Ah.

[GentleLake]

FWIW, I just looked at their FB page again. There are newer pics of the puppies and now you can clearly see the contrast between the "gold" and the white markings. So she's really not an all white puppy.

 

But definitely interesting to see that they'd consider changing the way they were referring to her in order to avoid questions about deafness. What if she really had been all white? It would have been a legitimate concern then.

 

Just kinda confirms people's reservations about them as breeders.

 

ETA: I'm not sure that Thunder, the "Black & White Tri-Color Male", isn't actually a sable. Possibly Lightening, too.

[Liz P]

Still tri color though. Tri color just means 3 colors. There are tan point tri colors and sable tri colors.

[Alchemist]

She claims that the "white" (ee red) puppy can "see and hear just fine". Of course her eyes aren't open in that photo, because she's only ten days old. She's 20 days old right now - does anyone know whether that's old enough to test vision and hearing?

 

I'm with everyone else. Selling puppies on Craigslist is enough of a red flag right there that I'd run in the opposite direction. NO evidence on their FB page that they do anything with their dogs other than churn out puppies. Tell your friend to run, don't walk, away.

[GentleLake]

Still tri color though. Tri color just means 3 colors. There are tan point tri colors and sable tri colors.

 

I wasn't arguing the tri-color part, just the black & white part.

[GentleLake]

She claims that the "white" (ee red) puppy can "see and hear just fine". Of course her eyes aren't open in that photo, because she's only ten days old. She's 20 days old right now - does anyone know whether that's old enough to test vision and hearing?

 

Can't say for sure about the hearing, but it's just common sense to guess that a pup that's eyes aren't even open can't see squat.

[Alchemist]

Can't say for sure about the hearing, but it's just common sense to guess that a pup that's eyes aren't even open can't see squat.

 

Of course, but if the comment was written when the pup was 20 days (not 10 days) old, its eyes were open at that point

[Liz P]

You generally check eyes at 6 to 8 weeks and ears/hearing at 7 to 8 weeks of age. Ear canals aren't even open at birth.

[Sue R]

"Can see and hear just fine"? And just how do they know for sure? I doubt they have a clue, just a desire to sell.

[reddirtbordercollies]

This post is for all of you knowitalls & elitists. My name is Angela Smith. My family & I have Red Dirt Border Collies. We are a small family owned breeding program. The only reason that we started raising Border Collies is because we fell in love with the breed after getting our first 2 Border Collies, Zoe & Chloe. I am going to address each of the posts at this time –

 

They are advertising *on Craigslist* that they have two litters right now. That's about as big a red flag as I can think of. I would say, knowing nothing else, to stay far away from any breeder that sells pups on Craigslist. Period.

 

As far as advertising on Craigslist goes, we are in a rural area & everyone looks at Craigslist here. We do not ship our puppies, and would rather place them in other rural areas close by. A lot of Border Collie breeders put their pups on the Farm & Garden section of Craigslist. I see nothing wrong with this & it is a good way to reach people browsing the farm & garden section like farmers, ranchers & just country people in general. We do spend a lot of time in correspondence with & getting to know the families where our puppies are placed. We do educate new potential families about Border Collies, as well. Now, for the two litters, I realize that may make seem excessive, but our two breeding females are sisters who are litter mates & they cycle at the same time. We don’t always breed both, but sometimes we will. That is our decision NOT anyone else’s.

 

 

Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:32 PM

On their Facebook page, I see a lot of red and tri, which suggests an interest in breeding for color - and further down, one all WHITE puppy, which is a big no-no. Actually, it looks like there may be a white puppy from another litter, though they're labeling it "gold/lemon." So, are they happily breeding potentially deaf/blind puppies, too?

I'd say these people are not breeding for anything good. LOTS of puppies on that FB page and not one thing about the parents, whether they work or what they are used for. Besides breeding.

Highly suspicious, in my book.

~ Gloria

P.S.

Craigslist = a HUGE red flag. Huge.

 

Yes, we do have quite a few colors in our pack & as a result we end up with a variety of colors in our pups. As far as the white pup goes, we were just as concerned as everyone else when she was born, because she did appear to be an all white pup. We had not seen an ee red pup before either, so she was a surprise to us. We are not idiots & realize what all white could mean in Border Collies. We were just going to wait & see as she got older if she was deaf. As you know her color started showing up & we realized she was not white. We would definitely not sell a deaf or blind pup & we would not breed deaf or blind pups that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life – “happily breeding potentially blind/deaf puppies.” There was only one white/ee red pup on our page, not two. There are actually a lot of pictures & posts about the parents on our page if you scroll through enough. Of course, the posts at the beginning were about the puppies we had available, as most breeders would be. I’ve already addressed what I think of Craigslist.

 

Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:37 PM

Gloria Atwater, on 20 Jan 2014 - 17:38, said:

 

On their Facebook page, I see a lot of red and tri, which suggests an interest in breeding for color - and further down, one all WHITE puppy, which is a big no-no.





 

Not arguing in favor of this breeder for all the reasons already mentioned, but just wanted to say that an all-white or mostly white pup, in and of itself, would not be enough to turn me off a litter (assuming it was a well-bred working litter, which these are likely not). But if there were all sorts of merles in candy colors, then I'd be very suspicious of white dogs....

 

J.

 

There are no merles in our pack of 9. I appreciate you trying to talk some sense into the original poster.

.

Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:45 PM

I just had to comment on the white pup. They replied that she is not white, she is "golden" or "red ee" and that she has reddish pigmentation on her ears.

Okay. Not sure what to make of that, but okay. Genetics whiz folks, any opinions?

In photos, it looks like maybe the ears are colored like a very, very, VERY diluted red point Siamese.

~ Gloria

 

I realize that you had to comment on the white pup over & over again. I thought something was wrong with all of your comments, I just couldn’t pinpoint it. At least you admit in this post that you have no idea what an ee red Border Collie is, my suggestion to you before you make an ass of yourself, commenting over and over again on an obviously ee red pup is that you do some research!

 

Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:45 PM

Do all white Border Collies appear very often in litters that are not double merle? (I am unfamiliar with the genetics here and just curious.)

 

She was not an all white Border Collie, she was indeed a beautiful ee red. We have NO merles in our pack of 9.

 

Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:46 PM

Thanks, Julie. I agree. They have a lot of red and tri pups, but no merles. But Craigslist does set off flares and flags in my head! 

Terrecar, I second your question! I've never seen a pup this pale in a litter that was not due to merle genes, so I'm curious, too.

~ Gloria

 

Do some research, I daresay you have not seen everything before!

.

.

Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:50 PM

One rule of thumb I always use when looking is website is to ask where the emphasis is. If the focus is on puppies (like this breeder's FB page), then I steer clear. I love to see breeders who are proud of their breeding stock and want to tell us all about the parents and their accomplishments.

 

Again, there are plenty of pictures & information about our 9 Border Collies on our page. Whenever we have puppies available, the focus usually does shift to the puppies. We are proud of all of our dogs! As far as accomplishments, other than being very active companions, running buddies, ball players, proven herders, family members, etc…..our dogs don’t have a lot of other accomplishments.

 

 

Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:52 PM

If they are ee red pups they are from show lines. Never seen an ee red in working dogs. Looked like they had that color in 2 litters? Screams color breeder.

 

All of our dogs came from working ranches, not show dogs. I have heard that currently most ee reds are from show lines, but they originated with working dogs. We only had ee red in one litter. We did not get our dogs for color purposes, but it turns out they all have a lot of recessive genes to produce different colors. As far as we are concerned, we love all the colors of the Border Collie! Now since then we have bought a red & a blue female because we like those colors. If you consider us a color breeder so be it, we love all of our dogs no matter the color!!! They are all capable working dogs in any color.

 

Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:53 PM

ee red is Aussie red. It's actually true "red" as what we call red (bb) is really brown/liver. It is common in Aus/NZ show lines.

 

You can get pups with a lot of white if you breed two white factored dogs.

 

Yes, the ee red is called Australian Red as well. Also, known as the true red. You can look at our dogs & pups to see that white factoring is not an issue.

 

.

Posted 20 January 2014 - 08:30 PM

Gloria Atwater, on 20 Jan 2014 - 17:51, said:

 

I just had to comment on the white pup. They replied that she is not white, she is "golden" or "red ee" and that she has reddish pigmentation on her ears.


 

ee red is Australian red, right? If so, the pup's nose leather should be black. Can't tell from the picture.

 

Some Aussie reds can be quite light. AFAIK, it's the same color as Golden Retrievers, and they range from cream to an almost Irish Setter red.

 

But it does seem like they have a few more than normal colors going on, so I'd think of them as color breeders.

 

The pup is Australian red or ee red. The ee red actually masks the true color of the dog, so the dog can be red, black, blue, etc. You can look at the dogs nose leather to determine what the true color is. So our Goldie is actually a red & white. Again, we did not start off looking at the colors, we just wanted some good dogs for our country life, but think what you will.

 

Posted 20 January 2014 - 08:50 PM

juliepoudrier, on 20 Jan 2014 - 18:59, said:

 

You can get pups with a lot of white if you breed two white factored dogs.

 

Some dogs throw white pups even when bred to a dog that isn't white factored. My Kate was one that did.

 

Our dogs are not white factored or merle. The pup was not white, she was ee red. She did look solid white when she was born though. Her color was not obvious until she was a little older.

 

.

Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:56 AM

was reading their FB page and someone told the breeder in a comment that if they don't refer to the puppy as "white" no one will ask about it being deaf. Breeder says "good idea' and starts referring to the puppy as " Goldie". Ah.

 

Yes, the someone that said that was a Border Collie breeder in Texas who breeds ee reds frequently. She knew right away that the pup was ee red, not white. I didn’t want any more ignorant questions, like your co-poster was commenting so I agreed. I didn’t delete the comments so everyone could still see them.

 

 

Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:10 AM

FWIW, I just looked at their FB page again. There are newer pics of the puppies and now you can clearly see the contrast between the "gold" and the white markings. So she's really not an all white puppy.

 

But definitely interesting to see that they'd consider changing the way they were referring to her in order to avoid questions about deafness. What if she really had been all white? It would have been a legitimate concern then.

 

Just kinda confirms people's reservations about them as breeders.

 

ETA: I'm not sure that Thunder, the "Black & White Tri-Color Male", isn't actually a sable. Possibly Lightening, too.

 

I would have addressed any concerns for our pups. We never intentionally misrepresent any of our pups. Our pups are vet checked. As you stated, she was not an all white pup, that is why I didn’t want people to refer to her as one. Thanks for the heads up on Thunder, we had never had a sable or saddle pattern pup before either.

 

 

Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:44 AM

Still tri color though. Tri color just means 3 colors. There are tan point tri colors and sable tri colors.

 

Yes, both Thunder & Lightning are tri-color.

 

Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:51 AM

She claims that the "white" (ee red) puppy can "see and hear just fine". Of course her eyes aren't open in that photo, because she's only ten days old. She's 20 days old right now - does anyone know whether that's old enough to test vision and hearing?

 

I'm with everyone else. Selling puppies on Craigslist is enough of a red flag right there that I'd run in the opposite direction. NO evidence on their FB page that they do anything with their dogs other than churn out puppies. Tell your friend to run, don't walk, away.

 

If you will look at the post, you will see that I posted that on an older picture. At the time of the comment I posted the pups were 20 days old & had their eyes/ears open. We LOVE our dogs, we exercise, train, live with, and work with them. Again, there is a lot of pictures/posts of our dogs on our page. What evidence would you like to see?

 

 

Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:05 PM

Liz P, on 21 Jan 2014 - 10:50, said:

 

Still tri color though. Tri color just means 3 colors. There are tan point tri colors and sable tri colors.

 

I wasn't arguing the tri-color part, just the black & white part.

 

Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:07 PM

Alchemist, on 21 Jan 2014 - 10:57, said:

 

She claims that the "white" (ee red) puppy can "see and hear just fine". Of course her eyes aren't open in that photo, because she's only ten days old. She's 20 days old right now - does anyone know whether that's old enough to test vision and hearing?

 

Can't say for sure about the hearing, but it's just common sense to guess that a pup that's eyes aren't even open can't see squat.

 

Go back & look at that comment!!!! I posted that when the pups were 20 days old. The eyes & ears were open at that point.

 

Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:31 PM

GentleLake, on 21 Jan 2014 - 11:13, said:

 

Can't say for sure about the hearing, but it's just common sense to guess that a pup that's eyes aren't even open can't see squat.

 

Of course, but if the comment was written when the pup was 20 days (not 10 days) old, its eyes were open at that point

 

Finally someone with some sense!!! Yes, the comment was written at 20 days. Not when the picture was first posted.

 

You generally check eyes at 6 to 8 weeks and ears/hearing at 7 to 8 weeks of age. Ear canals aren't even open at birth.

 

Duh! I never claimed that they could see & hear at birth. Those comments are just stupid!

 

"Can see and hear just fine"? And just how do they know for sure? I doubt they have a clue, just a desire to sell.

 

Again, our pups are vet checked!!!!! Yes, because we make so much money on pups. SARCASM With what we spend on vet care, food, housing, etc., we do not make ANY money on the pups. We raise Border Collies only because we love our dogs & think they are the best breed!

 

So, in conclusion – we are simply a family who loves our dogs. After we got our first two Border Collies, we fell in love with the breed. We are not in this to make money. We charge a minimal amount for our exceptional puppies. We are truly the common man’s Border Collie breeders. Our dogs are well taken care of – they have vet care, plenty of food, lots of space & exercise. I realize that most of the people on this board are breeding working Border Collies. Our dogs have good instincts & have worked in the past. We are planning to add sheep to our operation & be able to produce working dogs in the future. At this time our dogs have good instincts, but we do not misrepresent our dogs/puppies ever, we do not represent them as working dogs. We are by no means a puppy mill or anything of that sort either. We usually have 2 or 3 litters a year. If you have any questions of us feel free to ask, some of our current puppy owners will be happy to answer any questions as well. It seems like to me that most of you on this board are very judgmental & will not even take the time to find out the facts. I wish I had as much time to sit around & lambaste total strangers as you people seem to have. Alas, I have a full-time job shaping the future of our country. How would you feel if someone was blasting you online for everyone to see? If you were truly concerned about the things you were talking about (like the white puppy, breeding double merles, etc.), you would make an effort to educate people not condemn them. Thanks for your time!

[Smalahundur]

You really spend a lot of breath to confirm you are a color breeder. One sentence would have done it.

Also a tip, don't call these very knowledgeable people "stupid", really, how do you think that makes you sound...?

[Sue R]

You might wish to read "Read this first" (http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showannouncement=1&f=6) and "Seeking information about getting a Border Collie" (http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=15117, which includes a link to "Tips on Getting a Border Collie") both of which will help explain the philosophy and viewpoints of this forum, and might help you understand why people responded to the OP's questions as they did.