Need training help..ideas..etc

[RenandTaff]

Hey all,

 

We have had Hobo now for over three months and we seem to have reached a standstill in training him. He still only knows a few commands and about 12-15 words. He has calmed down quite a bit and is mainly chewing his toys, instead of everything else but he seems stuck when it comes to learning any more commands or new words.

 

(by words I mean things like his name, my kids name, the cat, Taffy, food, etc)

 

I have never had this kind of problem in training before. I have had dogs that took more time to train but never one that just kind of stared at me blankly.

 

I have (except for a few days when I was ill) been working with him every day and we do not seem to get anywhere. I even tried bringing Taff out to help train him (she had him understanding the 'no kitchen' rule after only two attempts) but that did not seem to help either.

 

Does anyone have any ideas?

 

Thanks, -Ren

[jvw]

Why does he need to know your kids' or the cat's name? Seems to me basic control is a good start. And body language is much more important to dogs than words. Maybe you're working too hard. Just like people, not all dogs are "studious". As long as he's behaving himself give him a break for a bit.

Jennifer

[RenandTaff]

***Why does he need to know your kids' or the cat's name? Seems to me basic control is a good start. And body language is much more important to dogs than words. Maybe you're working too hard. Just like people, not all dogs are "studious". As long as he's behaving himself give him a break for a bit.***

 

That was the point. He does not have a reliable down. He does not have a reliable recall. He is a massive dog and he has to behave. I have a child, other animals, and a whole pasture full of the neighbor's cows and donkeys. I cannot have a dog that doesn't behave.

 

My question was posed because he seems incapable of learning. I need ideas to help, not permission to kick back and relax a while.

 

As for the words question...how can I teach him 'no road' or 'no fence' if he has no clue what the road or the fence is. 'No' alone works, but I have found being able to specify an object by name works much better.

 

Ren

[D'Elle]

Hi Ren

 

I am no expert in training, but generally have good success, so I will reply and try to offer something. You don't mention how old the dog is, or where you got him (maybe you told that on a previous post and I do not remember?). If he is a rescue, then you may be dealing of course with a lot of past baggage in the dog. This in my experience sometimes means a lot more time and patience is required. If no one ever trained him before, or if they used coercive or abusive training techniques then things will take a lot longer. An adult dog, as I am sure you know, is not a blank slate. My dog is very biddable by nature, but it still took some time and patience on my part to get past some of his fears and uncertainties at first. He was very cautious and had no self-confidence, and I had to build him up. He sort of wouldn't do anything at first, I think because he was scared he might do something wrong. And he didn't know very many commands. I started with just one thing at a time, and proceeded slowly. Sometimes this lack of confidence displays in different ways, including staring at you blankly when you give a command. I would suggest that continued work and patience, not pushing him too hard, and not letting your frustration with him show to him might be a good way to go. Try shorter training sessions, and lots of praise. Have you tried working with food or treats? Or, does he like a toy that can be a reward? Three months is not enough time for a dog to settle down, or for you to know each other's language very well yet. Give it time and give him your patience and love and in another three months you may be amazed at what he has learned. At first I was very uncertain about what Jes would learn to do, but now after only 6 months I am having a hard time coming up with new things to teach him fast enough! Anyway, hang in there and good luck!

[RenandTaff]

Thanks D'Elle,

 

I hadn't considered past baggage because he always seems so...goofy. Maybe I should. We got him about 3 months ago when he wandered up in the yard as a stray. He is about 13-14 months old now. We thought he was a GSD mix (maybe GSD and Golden Retriever) but the older he gets the more he looks like he has some Chow in him as well.

 

He is very gentle, but he is big and doesn't have good body sense. (he knocks over things, runs over things, whaps them with his tail, etc)

 

Nothing seems to scare him, or startle him and he does respond well to treats. He learned a few commands right off but then it is like he just..stalled. I worked for over two months to teach him down and he still doesn't know it as a verbal command. (he will down for a hand signal, though..which makes no sense) It is like he wakes up in a new world each day.

 

Thanks for your ideas. I will try to have more patience with him. (and not be so grumpy here..sorry Jen)

 

Ren

[BaileysMom]

Have you tried incorporating learning into fun activities and games? Bailey gets bored practicing the same old thing over and over again. I have to come up with games to play in order to get any progress sometimes. Hide and seek for stay, because he has to stay until I hide the object, then come when he is called. When he finds the object I do another sit, stay, down in order for him to get the treat. I have to change treats frequently to keep his interest in the treat which helps because it is the reward. I go to fenced areas and run around with him between learning to make it fun and exciting. Have you been on the boards long? Sorry, I don't remember. There are lots of good posts to look through on training that may be of some help. It can be tricky to think of a fun way to teach commands other than the basic ones, but it may help. Just have to be creative! And eventually your dog will learn the cat's name and all that just by listening to people say it. Bailey knows bone, ball, Odin (our husky) couch, outside, come in, go back, banana, you name it! Those are things that he just picked up on his own. But if you lay a banana down with a bunch of other things and tell him "get the banana" he will choose it. Good luck to you!

[jvw]

Sorry Ren,

In your original post you did not mention that the problems you were having trouble training were things like here, leave it, lie down, etc. You mostly mentioned trying to teach him words. I thought you had the basics down. Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

You mentioned needing to teach him words like fence and road to keep him away from them. Actually you don't. All he really needs is a good recall, lie down/stay, and leave it. That's it. After you've mastered those then work on more specific things.

 

You mentioned that it makes no sense that he won't down on a word but will for a hand signal. Actually, this makes perfect sense. It is not easy for dogs to learn English! You might want to check out the book "The Other End of the Leash". Its about human body language in relation to dogs. I'm not sure it will help you with training specific commands but it may help you find better ways to communicate with the dog while eventually teaching verbal commands.

 

I also agree three months is not a long time to get settled into a new home. Keep working with him but try not to get too frustrated. Learning needs to be fun for both of you.

Jennifer

[MrSnappy]

I think I read somewhere that for the average dog, 2000 reptitions of a command need to be done before he really understands what is being asked of him.

 

I find that many people think their dogs understand things that they don't really understand. A good way to prove this is try the following: lie down on your back on the floor, and then issue commands you think your dog knows, like "sit" "lie down" etc. You might be surprised when your dog does not respond - because he is used to reading body language more than he actually knows the 'meaning' of the commands you give him.

 

Finally, and no offense to Chows, but the Chow breed is not exactly renowned for its obedience or learning skills. I imagine they can be difficult dogs to train for that reason. I would suggest more seductive motivators for the dog and very short, very upbeat training sessions with low expectations on your part, so that you can realize realistic improvements in a positive way, instead of being frustrated at his lack of progress.

 

RDM

[BigD]

Some suggestions that may or may not help:

 

Use food as a motivator at all times. If food doesn't work, then don't feed your dog so much. Or - feed him by doing some training work. That's how he gets his kibble.

 

Keep a long line on him at all times until you get a solid recall. If the dog is off leash and has been allowed to ignore your call before - well, you need to start over. New command - don't use the same things you've been using before (instead of "Dog come!" use "Dog here!" or something like that.) You should NEVER call your dog unless you can back it up. Period. If you do, you've lost the game. Reward each recall with food or a toy or something that is better than what you called him off of. Everytime. Gradually phase out the rewards. If you see him hesitate, bring the rewards back after you get a solid recall.

 

This could take months...

 

I agree with the other posters that you don't need to teach words. What a way to confuse the poor guy. Save that until after you've perfected the rest of your needs.

 

Be happy the dog responds to hand signals! Use that to your advantage when you re-train the recall.

 

Work on the stay and wait commands. This will help him learn about his personal space. I too have a big, pushy boy whose tail always knocks over things. I put him in a down stay and he settles after a bit.

 

I would stick with the basics for now - sit, down, wait, stay and the recall.

 

Again - this can take months. Make your training fun, happy and part of something he enjoys (daily walk? a game?). Just because you train everyday doesn't mean anything. Sometimes dogs will do much better with a day off. Your training should be short! No more than say 10 or 15 minutes. To maximize your efforts you should only train your dog when he is lonely, bored and hungry. It sounds nasty, but it really helps. He will be more focused on you, on what you are doing and it will help in the long run.

 

Also - if you can, enroll in a basic obedience class - this will help the most as you will get various forms of feedback from instructors that can see your dog.

 

Good luck...hope some of this helps...

 

Denise

[Cholla1]

---"Finally, and no offense to Chows, but the Chow breed is not exactly renowned for its obedience or learning skills. I imagine they can be difficult dogs to train for that reason."---

 

You may have that right, if the dog has some chow and it is part of it's temperament.

 

We had a friend that raised chows and brought some regularly for a few classes, maybe puppy and beginners once or twice.

They were, in her words, the most lovable, cuddly and calm pet rock of dogdom.

They just didn't interact with people except in their own terms, especially when grown.

All she wanted of the dog classes was to establish a line of communication, not to teach the dog anything in particular past the basics.

 

She said they were naturally obedient and willing, if you didn't want much and like you, wondered if they woke up in a different world every day.

She referred the puppy buyers, the few litters she had, to the classes and the ones that came were the same.

 

Now, you don't really know that your dog has chow in him, but if he did, that may be something to consider.

Work at his pace. They are hard to motivate but you can do it.

[RenandTaff]

OKay. I am obviously bad at conveying this. (grin) I do appreciate all the suggestions. (Especially the body language and hand signals as he does seem to react more to those than my voice) Unfortunately I have already tried most of the others with no success.

 

I am not new to the boards or to owning/training dogs. Taffy is my soon to be 12 year old (in March) Border Collie and we work well together. Most of the time I can give her commands with just a look or noise in my throat. I can also carry on a conversation with her. My first Border Collie was the same way. I have had other dogs over the years and while some have not been as smart as others (one SamoyedX in particular was just...dim), they were all able to learn basic commands and expected behavior. I am not a professional but I have never met a dog I couldn't train. Until Hobo.

 

I know he can learn. He waits to eat until I tell him it is okay. He sits to be petted. He has this little ball he squeaks when he wants to play. He is housetrained (actually, he is fanatical about picking one spot outside and only going there) and as I said before, he knows he is not allowed in the kitchen and stays out of it when he is inside. He will sit/stay until I call him. He comes when I call his name. He learned all the above in a couple of weeks. This is where we have been stalled for months. In the three months since those first weeks he has learned down (with a hand signal) and has almost stopped jumping on us. (he has bad days but he is learning it is not allowed) I have never had a dog learn so slowly. Am I rushing him?

 

Cholla - I have never had a chow. I thought they didn't like other dogs? Hobo thinks Taffy is wonderful. The 'waking up in a new world' does apply though. As does calm and cuddly. He has a mostly black tongue but I have read where other dogs besides chows can have them so I don't know.

 

Thanks again everybody, -Ren

[BaileysMom]

Ah-that explains everything much better. Sounds like our husky Odin. He is smart, he knows the basic commands but only listens when he wants to. Otherwise he'll just stare at us blankly. And I really think with him he just doesn't care to learn more. Knows what he is allowed to do and what he isn't, where he is allowed to go in the house and where he can't, but other than that we cannot train this dog to listen every time, or get him to even seem interested in anything we say or do. He is 3 years old. He does not misbehave or have any bad habits. Just seems like he doesn't care to learn anything else. Bailey, my BC, is the opposite, loves learning new things and playing games. It sounds like you definitely know what you are doing, maybe its just the personality of your dog. It drives my crazy sometimes with Odin, Bailey is eager to learn and Odin just looks at me like, "I could care less."

[jones1100]

Hi, just a thought. But have you considered getting his hearing tested by the vet?

[Lou]

Once you have had a BC it spoils you for other breeds They aren't considered at the top of the intelligence/trainable list for nothing. We had always had other breeds/mixes...then came Freckles...there is a difference. I can talk to her from another room and she responds!! Almost spooky. In the car if she stands between the seat and blocks my vision... I can just say "Freck, I can't see" and she goes down...and I don't always use the same words. Just one example...Amazes me.