Tramadol and Rimadyl

[Liz P]

Baby aspirin is NOT easy on the stomach or liver. It's a non selective NSAID. I would not recommend trying it out.

[medic09]

DON'T use enteric coated aspirin because it doesn't dissolve in their stomach and can build up in their intestines and can cause overdosing problems,

As already noted, it is not a good idea to institute a regular/chronic medication regimen without a veterinarian's instructions regarding the individual animal. So I won't go there. But urgent/temporary use of drugs like aspirin for a field injury, etc. is pretty well accepted and advised in any number of home and professional vet books.

 

So, did you actually learn your above quote from a good vet or other reliable professional source? Or did it just come off some internet forum? Because it is the opposite of what I've read and been taught.

 

(I'm going to play the 'credential game' here. I'm a health care professional. Served 5 years as an evacuation and recon team medic. Worked as a civilian and SAR paramedic. Worked as an ER nurse. Work the last seven years as a board certified critical care transport/flight paramedic and nurse. I was mentored by our vet specifically for caring for our SAR team dogs, as well as our own animals at home. My wife is a physician who does a lot of the animal care with me. Well, I assist her. My only real point is I have some education/expertise in sifting through relevant medical information.)

 

Since your advice surprised me, I pulled off the shelf one of my home manuals - Griffin, MD and Carlson, DVM's Dog Owner's Home Veterinary Handbook, 3rd ed. On page 504 they write, "Buffered or enteric coated aspirin is much safer than regular aspirin because it is less likely to cause stomach and duodenal ulcers." There is more about using regular aspiring with buffering agents and the like; but my point is they say the exact opposite of your quote. DeVinne, DVM writes in First Aid for Sporting Dogs on pg. 19 to use "Aspirin (buffered)", with the appropriate caveat "Consult your vet if possible before administering any medication." Acker, DVM is not so specific in Field Guide to Dog First Aid, but he does list the use on pg. 84 of "Aspirin/Bufferin", which leads me to think that he certainly does not object to the use of buffered aspirin.

 

I have successfully used both regular and enteric aspirin in treating pain associated with acute injury in dogs. I have never used it for chronic situations. I will note that Griffin and Carlson write that aspirin "is no longer recommended for long-term control of osteoarthritis, because of its destructive effects on joint cartilage. There are better analgesics available that do not have this disadvantage." In the next paragraph regarding metabolism of aspirin, they note "As few as two regular-strenth aspirin tablets can produce severe organ damage in some medium-sized (30 pound) dogs. Follow the exact dosage, etc."

 

I am not trying to be alarmist. Personally, I have used and will continue to use aspirin for acute injury in dogs (and humans). It's a great drug. But older dogs (and people) are likely to have some metabolic changes that should make us a bit cautious about giving any drug long-term with instruction from a veterinarian who knows the particular animal. Patients vary, and it is risky to say 'I like it for my dog, do this for your dog' without some hesitation.

 

I apologize for the rant and digression. I benefit from the discussions and advice here. I hope my suggesting a little caution is not out of place, and won't harm discussion and learning. Now, I'll go back to my lane...

 

Of course, if I am wrong, PLEASE correct me so that I learn and don't mislead others. That's why we're all here, I think.

[juliepoudrier]

I am not a medic or a vet, nor do I play either one on TV, but I am a scientist and I have worked for vets over rather long periods of time and also have had long discussions with them regarding various care regimens for various animals with various problems or disease processes. First of all, AFAIK buffered is not the same as enteric coated, so using the terms interchangeably can be a bit misleading (yes, the buffering and enteric coating have the same practical outcome in humans, but it's by different processes, which is the sticking point when it comes to dogs).

 

I have never heard that enteric-coated aspirin would build up in the intestines, but rather that because the dog's gut is shorter than ours and the digestion process somewhat quicker it's likely that enteric coated aspirin would pass through the entire GI tract largely untouched and therefore unused. Aspirin (buffered or not) that would actually dissolve in the stomach would at least have some hope of being absorbed from the GI tract and reach its intended target.

 

There are lots of NSAIDS (IMO) out there that are probably more suitable than aspirin, but if I had a dog with a need and nothing else(e.g., carprofen, meloxicam, etc.) on hand, I would use aspirin for immediate or short term relief. Given the option I would choose plain or buffered over enteric coated.

 

FWIW, I have seen lots of arguments/discussions regarding enteric-coated vs. not, and it seems there is no real consensus. I have not made any attempt whatsoever to go to the literature and see if there are any definitive studies (this topic hasn't come up in a long time), so there could actually be some sort of answer out there, but as far as I'm concerned, I'd do as I noted above.

 

There are a lot of highly educated folks on this forum, so although they may not be medical professionals, they likely have done their research. It's good to question suggestions that don't seem to make sense, but as I've known both vets and doctors that I would dream of letting treat me or mine, I don't think credentials necessarily trumps all else.

 

More often than not in these discussions posters will suggest consulting a vet, and I don't think anyone here ever posts as an authority about what should or shouldn't be done (even our resident vets will suggest seeing an actual vet in person even if they do offer some general advice here), but forums are about discussion and exchanges of ideas so I also don't see anything wrong with someone posting about what has worked for them. It's incumbent upon all of us to recognize that free advice is worth what we paid for it. That said, there are folks on this forum I know in person and whose opinions I trust. But again, it's up to me (and everyone else who participates on groups like this) to make those decisions about the trustworthiness of information given, ultimately.

 

J.

[Freeman 101]

My Labrador took Norocarp for years. She also had severe osteoarthritis. Norocarp is much more affordable than Rimadyl. My Pyr Shep took Tramadol for more than a month post surgery and he had no issues with it.

[medic09]

Julie, I agree with everything you wrote. Everything.

 

I will point out that I didn't choose to equate enteric and buffered. Drs. Griffin and Carlson did that. I take that to mean that they think (or thought) that functionally both would achieve the same clinical effect. I have seen the same clinical conclusion elsewhere. I simply pulled down the couple of books I have easily at hand to articulate the point. I don't have a veterinary pharmacology text, so couldn't check that.

 

I wrote what I did because Ancient Dog gave clear clinical advice, including what I take to be misinformation in their last sentence. Since, as I noted, that last sentence is the exact opposite of what I've been taught and read; I thought it wise to question the source and veracity of the information. That is still an open question, since I may be proven wrong or outdated. But if someone is going to give actual clinical instruction (as opposed to a suggestion of 'did you ask your vet about...?), we should be willing to question the correctness of that or risk mistreating our dogs (whether minor or major mistake).

 

I agree that credentials alone trump nothing. But we do typically look for experience and education to indicate that we have reason to think someone *should* be able (not does) to responsibly know their limitations and the limitations of the science and literature. I only meant it to show why I think I have reason to question if the aspirin suggestion didn't contain misinformation. Ultimately, anyone's comments should stand on their merits; not anything else, as I believe you said. I still may be proven mistaken, but for now I think my objections are valid and someone should not to jump on implementing the aspirin suggestion *as written*

 

BTW, I know that about ten years ago there were a couple of studies that suggested that enteric coated ASA is less effective or ineffective in dogs. It was suggested that dogs do not digest the coating properly and just pass the aspirin. To the best of my knowledge, that was inconclusive; as I think you noted too. About a year ago a UPenn study of 400 human patients suggested a significant decrease of effectiveness in humans. The study isn't large enough to be definitive clinically; but it certainly warrants further investigation. Personally, I stick with regular aspirin; but I only use it in acute cases without further veterinary instruction for the specific dog.

 

If I understand correctly, the major mechanism by which NSAIDs cause gastrointestinal problems is through inhibiting PGE production, including aspirin. That occurs at the systemic level, and so in ongoing use, buffered or enteric aspirin maybe won't help anything much. Or maybe it will. But since the buffering or coating may reduce local irritation as suggested in some papers, it may still be useful for temporary use. Many of us here seem to agree that chronic drug administration is not a good idea without veterinary diagnosis and instruction in any case.

 

BTW, if I understand correctly, Ascriptin (which some vets like) is not enteric coated. The manufacturer calls it 'aspirin buffered with Maalox'.

[Dragoon 45]

My 14 YO BC gets a daily dose of Novox and Tramadol as needed. He is also on a daily regimen of Duralactin and Glycoflex. I am told the Novox is a generic of Rymadil and is about 1/3 the cost through my vet. He has been on this regimen for the past three years due to a significant lower back injury and so far no major issues with any of the meds. He can't really run anymore due to his back, but still gets around pretty good.

[ness_bc]

Bit late on this but my young BC girl with ortho issues has been on and off a combination of tramadol and carprofen (which is effectively rimadyl). The specialist said if I could get away with just tramadol then it was a safer long term alternative for her and he was much happier for her to be on that.

 

We did dosage reductions to see what was the lowest dose of the drugs she can still be ok on. In the end she is now on carprofen and tramadol as needed.

[RoseAmy]

I too have an older dog almost 15 with problems. At this point it is about quality of life. He has been on at one time or another most of all mentioned above. What ever seems to be working at the time.

 

They were many times when we really thought it was time to say goodbye but he rallied.

 

Back in Sept. I tried him on a supplement ( I'm not much on supplements btw) as a last ditch effort. It's called Connectin made by In Clover. The change in him is unbelievable. Most days he takes no pain meds and he's acting like he's 4 yrs younger.

[Ancient_Dog]

I just want to apologize for posting about the Aspirin. I really have no excuse other than I was trying to be helpful and since everybody was throwing out names of prescription medications, I thought that I would recommend an OTC (Over the Counter) pain reliever that I had used very effectively.

 

Disclaimer: I am not a Veterinarian or in a medical profession of any kind. Aspirin was recommended to me in multiple visits by at least two different Vets. Both Vets were graduates from Texas A&M University and well respected in the community. I have no financial ties to any Aspirin company (Bayer or the like).

 

I am sorry if I somewhat mis-spoke about enteric coated Aspirin accumulating in the intestines. This is probably more my interpretation of what I thought my Vet told me. With all the other pain relieving drugs being bantered about, I thought I would relate my experience…. That’s all. I’m not sure now whether I am right or wrong to use the aspirin. I don’t want to be giving out incorrect information; I just wish I had not posted, period.

[jvw]

Ancient_Dog don't worry! It spurred some good discussion. Good info. Don't beat yourself up.

 

I just always want to remind people to ALWAYS discuss things with their vet. What works for someone MAY be detrimental for another dog.

[juliepoudrier]

Ancient_Dog,

You did nothing wrong by posting. I have used aspirin and will use it again if needed. I think you were right to mention something that was OTC. Just remind yourself that on any forum there will be those who disagree and wish to prove others wrong. That shouldn't stop you from posting. As I said in an earlier post--it's incumbent upon anyone taking advice over the internet to do their own research and not just take everything they read as gospel. Those who don't can't blame anyone but themselves when/if the advice doesn't work for them.

 

J.

I just want to apologize for posting about the Aspirin. I really have no excuse other than I was trying to be helpful and since everybody was throwing out names of prescription medications, I thought that I would recommend an OTC (Over the Counter) pain reliever that I had used very effectively.

 

Disclaimer: I am not a Veterinarian or in a medical profession of any kind. Aspirin was recommended to me in multiple visits by at least two different Vets. Both Vets were graduates from Texas A&M University and well respected in the community. I have no financial ties to any Aspirin company (Bayer or the like).

 

I am sorry if I somewhat mis-spoke about enteric coated Aspirin accumulating in the intestines. This is probably more my interpretation of what I thought my Vet told me. With all the other pain relieving drugs being bantered about, I thought I would relate my experience…. That’s all. I’m not sure now whether I am right or wrong to use the aspirin. I don’t want to be giving out incorrect information; I just wish I had not posted, period.