Breeding pet border collies

[sogj]

I'm kind of regretting asking this question, lol.

 

Thank you so much to those of you who answered me. I appreciate the time it took to explain some genetic/biology basics.

 

I'm sorry I have offended some by using the word "border," or have shown off my obvious snobbery by using the phrase "border collie." I'm still not exactly sure how I'm supposed to refer to the dog here.

 

I'm also sorry for having the audacity to ask a question that has been asked before. I wanted to interact and engage with actual, knowledgeable people on the subject instead of just reading articles and the like online which usually leave me more confused than intellectually satisfied, as they tend to be watered down and highly emotional instead of informative. I was unaware that I was expected to have a 30 year knowledge of breeding history and discussion before commenting here.

 

Again, thank you so much to all of you who very thoughtfully explained (a) what exactly people's actual problems are, ( the biological difficulty in actually creating a new breed of dog, © a few of the cultural differences around the world, and (d) that most people who may be desiring to fulfill a specific urban need would probably have their needs met with less of a designer option, thereby not making the creating of a new breed a "need fulfillment" in the historical, anthropological sense.

 

And no, I have not seen that Nova episode, though it looks fascinating. I watch biology documentaries for fun in my spare time, I will try to find that one.

 

Thank y'all.

[bcnewe2]

I'm choosing not to address the border collie part of your question, it has been answered many times above.

But addressing the why not other dogs being mixed.

 

If I didn't "need" a boder collie for working stock I would have chosen a rescue. Either a rescue border collie (because I like the breed) or a mutt from a shelter.

 

The way I see it is, if you don't "need" a purpose bred dog of whatever kind, why not rescue something that strikes your fancy. Why is the need to breed something so important (not you but the "general you")? There our zillions of dogs out there waiting for their forever homes. Why would anyone want to add more to the over population of good dogs without a real need? It is as easy for me to love a purple big dog or an little green one. But I need one to work my livestock and I appreciate the border collie breed as a whole. If I was intent on getting one whom I knew was bred true just for the love of the breed I would be looking at breeders who are caretakers of the breed for it is that which I love.

Otherwise it is just a lovable mutt! Which I happen to find nothing wrong with!

[Jumpin Boots]

 

 

If anyone says "Border" to me I think Border Terrier. Lassie collie is a Rough Collie. Smooth version of a Rough Collie is a Smooth Collie. If anyone says Border Collie I think breed snob or internationally ambitious agility handler. If anyone says collie they mean BC or WSD. Some working people I know tend to call them the dog or it.

 

But that's in the UK (where the breeds originated).

Within certain groups of people I have actually begun referring to our pup as a 'working bred border collie.' I don't know what level if snobbery this would put me under

 

I do this mainly within a local agility group I use to practice with. They are mainly akc folks and Barbie/sport collies have begun trending as the must have pup. None of which act like my dog or how border collies should. Not to mention their coats are ridiculous, and several are cross eyed looking.

 

I do this bc quite often it triggers the what is 'working bred' and I can step up on my soap box for a minute and voice my concern on breeding these dogs for other things and there are examples of the difference right there. People who have been around the breed groups just ignore my subtle comment but newbies are curious.

 

I find many people here don't know what my pup his, I've been told he's too small and his coat is too scraggly to be a border collie most seem to think he's a rescue border collie mix, must be the scraggly coat.

[Sue R]

Don't be. No offense intended, no offense taken by anybody that I can see. But, a lot of good answers came your way and most people just saying it as it is in their minds.

 

I'm kind of regretting asking this question, lol.

[Sue R]

If it was the common way to refer to the working sheepdog as a "Border", I don't think anyone would find it the least bit bothersome. Salamanhunder (sp?) pointed out that's common in Germany among the working sheepdog people. In my experience, in North America, those who refer to the "Border Collie" as a "Border", are those who are involved with dogs in the show world, performance world perhaps, and pet world perhaps. They are not the people who view the breed as a working dog and work to preserve it as such.

 

So, to me, it's a bit derogatory and disrespectful because I find it associated with folks who like cutesy, shortened names for breeds, and who really view dogs without a true concern for their historical and purposeful background (and future). I guess I'd have to say that it just *feels wrong* to me, and I know I am not alone.

 

It's taken me a while to get used to typing "BC" instead of typing out the full name but maybe the texting era is having some small effect on me, too!

[G. Festerling]

There is no need to breed a pet Border Collie because they are already being bred. A pet serves no purpose (or if you will, no higher purpose) than to provide companionship. A working dogs purpose is to provide a service that impacts a life through a very specific set of skills way past normal being a dog. The ability to smell, herd, hunt...and the willingness and skills to let a human use it.

Even the very best matches between purebred dogs produce less than stellar individuals. Even "duds" when it comes to doing the intended job. Those make great pets for the most part. A dud in a litter of Border Collies could simply be a dog with less drive for sheep and more interest in toys. Makes it not a good sheep dog but a great active companion for a sport or pet home. So, yeah, I mean dud in a nice way here! Because if one breeds the best dogs, the left over pups, the duds, who do not live up to the planned level, they still deserve great homes. And great homes deserve a well bred dog.

Today we don't face so many more "new" uses for dogs that somewhat justify developing new breeds. As a working animal their jobs shift and change. The largest "breed" in the world is the pet dog. Be that a breed that is simply bred to be a companion as a Pekinise, a mix breed dog that is somewhat watered down in its instincts or a "pet" quality working dog. So why breed more?

Supply and demand? Well, take a look around. There are plenty Border Collies out there that need homes. Could it be that if we nix (with a magic wand) all breedings that were not done by truly working oriented folks, that there may not be enough "pet" quality pups in a litter to fill a demand? I suppose. Although I do not know. But then, is impacting a breed negatively just for the sake of human wants worth it? There are a lot of things I would like and can't have. Call me old fashioned and narrow minded, but I do believe not everyone should set their own ideas of what "they" want and be able to just simply go out and do it without any concern on history and rules.

 

 

[Smalahundur]

If it was the common way to refer to the working sheepdog as a "Border", I don't think anyone would find it the least bit bothersome. Salamanhunder (sp?) pointed out that's common in Germany among the working sheepdog people.

I for instance don´t find it bothersome at all that you make "Salamanhundur" of my handle .

What were you thinking of, a salamander dog?

 

Maybe it interests you that the word "Smalahunder" means stockdog, in Icelandic (að smala means to gather). I do understand it must sound a bit exotic.

 

Yeah, and concerning the term "border" of course the context in which it is used is crucial, and context you mention makes the negative associations understandable.

 

To me "border" sounds just like "bc", a simple shortening for convenience.

[G. Festerling]

Hmmm...I refer to my GSD's as Germans, and my BC's as Borders....and neither have a smidgen of show in them. And everyone that knows me, neither do I!

Sorry. could not help myself....

[Maralynn]

I had no clue that people might find the term "borders" to be offensive before I came to this board.

[urge to herd]

Seems to me that deciding WHAT kind of person someone is, based on what they CALL a certain breed is a bit like 'knowing' that a dog would be great at working sheep, just because he's a border collie. It's simply coming from another direction, but it's the same principle, making judgements based on very little information

 

I don't care what terms are used or not used. There are more important issues than labels. I don't find the term 'borders' offensive. I refer to my dog(s) as bc's, just for shorthand. If it's offensive, please tell me how the terminology I use has ever contributed to any harm done to border collies as a breed. Or any individual dog of any kind, for that matter.

 

I am offended by people who tell me that they know their dog would be great with sheep, or want to know if Gibbs can breed, because of his coloring. But what they call their dog? Tch, tch.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Sue R]

To each their own. I meant no offense (just like those that call them "Borders") but that's been my experience, those are my feelings, and I know I'm not alone. Or maybe I am.

[Sue R]

To each their own. I meant no offense (just like those that call them "Borders") but that's been my experience, those are my feelings, and I know I'm not alone. Or maybe I am.

[Sue R]

Darn phone posting - I should know better!

[Diana A]

Breeding a border collie to be just a pet - that's a bit like saying you want to breed a particular type of horse, and starting by trying to breed down from an elephant. I want an elephant but i want it to weigh only 1000 pounds, I want to breed out the trunk, I want to breed in a pretty coat, and a longer neck, and smaller ears, etc etc. Why not start with something close to what you already want, like another type of horse? If you want a 'pet' why not start with a breed that is already meant for a pet and just breed really good ones (health, temperament, etc). Why take a border collie and try to breed it into something it's not, when there are other breeds out there that are much more suitable starting material.

 

In theory I have no problem if someone wants to create a new breed specifically meant for agility or some other sport. Maybe you'd even use border collies as some of the starting material. But you'd be calling it something else and you'd need to work several generations to set in the type and get the traits you want, and those genes would never cross back over into the border collie gene pool. In this day and age I doubt anyone would stand for the culling and number of litters that would be necessary to actually accomplish the creation of a true new breed. Just think of what would need to be done to ensure a big enough gene pool - no one could possibly own that many dogs - you'd need special contracts with buyers, breedings on sold dogs, to keep contact with the majority of dogs produced, track health information on every pup produced, track traits throughout a huge family tree, etc. A huge undertaking, but maybe feasible if there's a market for an ideal sport dog.

 

But to do all that for a pet? That just seems silly. First of all, the job of 'pet' is way too diverse for one breeding program to ever cover it all. Everyone wants something different - one person might want a nice lap dog who never needs walking and another might want a play companion for the kids and jogging companion for mom and dad. Some people find short faces cute and others might find them repugnant, some like short coats, others like a different look, or pretty fur, or a particular color or body type. For 'just a pet' it's better for each person to pick a suitable breed, get a rescue, whatever. I see absolutely no sense whatsoever in taking a working breed and trying to change it to be a 'pet' when there first of all is no need to create a 'pet' breed and secondly even if you did decide to create a pet breed, there is much better starting material out there than to start with a working breed.

[Laurae]

Great post, Diana.

[juliepoudrier]

Gentlelake and Diana both gave you good answers. It is believed that the genetic combinations that produce a good working dog are linked to one another (that is, some of the traits needed in a good working dog are linked to other traits that one might want for a good pet--you can't easily have one without the other, not to mention being linked to undesirable traits that one might want to minimize or eliminate in either type of dog, if one could do so without affecting working ability).

 

As Denise Wall explained so eloquently in her bull's eye/dart board analogy, the working traits must be selected for in every generation or they will quickly be lost. One needn't even select for pet traits; one could simply not bother to select for working ability, and soon enough (within a couple of generations) you'd have a dog that no longer was capable of working to a high standard. The catch, of course, is that you'd not only lose the "working" part of things, you'd also lose some of the traits desired in a pet (intelligence, biddability, great desire to partner with a human) because those traits are all likely connected within the border collie genome.

 

Assuming one could keep the "desirable" traits while eliminating only the "undesirable" traits in order to create a perfect pet, there's still the problem of when it becomes a new breed. Remove enough of the traits that define a breed and it's no longer that original breed, right? Border collies are a mix of a bunch of different genetics, selected to produce the working dog we know today. If a breeder starts selecting against those same traits, or even some of them, at some point the dog is no longer the breed it started out as. There's a reason people make distinctions, say, between American german shepherds and German german shepherds, or those dogs bred from show vs. working/protection lines. The name of the breed is the same, but the type of dog you get depends very much on what lines the dog comes from. IMO that leads to some unnecessary confusion.

 

As for shorthand breed names, lots of folks do it, but it seems to have arisen from (or at least be more prevalent in) the bench show culture, which of course in itself can cause a knee-jerk reaction among folks who aren't (and don't want to be) a part of that culture. Not to mention the aforementioned confusion between very different dog breeds with similar names (border terriers vs. border collies). I tend to call my dogs either border collies or working border collies (or working stockdogs). If someone else wants to use shorthand for a dog breed name, I don't really have a problem with it, though it may cause me to make some assumptions (for what they're worth) about a person's dog culture background.

 

By way of apology to the OP, this topic does come up fairly regularly and is definitely a hot-button topic. One source of irritation for some of us is the assumption that many posters make (you are not numbered among this group) that border collies aren't needed for actual stockwork any longer and so no one should care if they change. These same people will contend that those of us who cling to the working stockdog need to get with the program and realize that change happens, whether we like it or not, and because the border collie is now more popular for use in X, Y, and Z activities, we need to get over it--change is coming like it or not--embrace the change or get out of the way. So some of the emotion you're getting here is a result of those past discussions and the fact that for those of use who do use these dogs for what they were originally intended realize how easily this breed can be changed to our and the breed's detriment. And those same people telling us we should accept the inevitable are often incredulous that we would dig in our heels and fight for a breed that means a great deal to us, when we are "such a minority." So yeah, something of a touchy subject.

 

J.

[Gideon's girl]

A "breeder" that is breeding a new breed of dog for a new purpose does not sell his puppies. You have to keep them until they are grown to know if they have the traits you are looking for. You also need quite a number of individuals to breed from. Somebody that breeds one dog of x breed to one bitch of y breed and sells the puppies is not breeding a new breed and not for any purpose except to make money.

[sogj]

By way of apology to the OP, this topic does come up fairly regularly and is definitely a hot-button topic. One source of irritation for some of us is the assumption that many posters make (you are not numbered among this group) that border collies aren't needed for actual stockwork any longer and so no one should care if they change. These same people will contend that those of us who cling to the working stockdog need to get with the program and realize that change happens, whether we like it or not, and because the border collie is now more popular for use in X, Y, and Z activities, we need to get over it--change is coming like it or not--embrace the change or get out of the way. So some of the emotion you're getting here is a result of those past discussions and the fact that for those of use who do use these dogs for what they were originally intended realize how easily this breed can be changed to our and the breed's detriment. And those same people telling us we should accept the inevitable are often incredulous that we would dig in our heels and fight for a breed that means a great deal to us, when we are "such a minority." So yeah, something of a touchy subject.

 

I agree, Diana that was a very informative post, thank you.

 

And I had no idea people believed this ^^. Do people really think BC's aren't used for stock anymore?! What do they think, ranchers have robots now?!?! Thanks for telling me, that does explain some of the...ahem...passion I sensed behind answers and some of the assumptions that seemed to be made about me.

 

Thank you for all of your answers, I feel like I've actually learned something.

[juliepoudrier]

Sogj,

Most people don't think about ranchers and certainly (as Pam noted) at least here in the U.S. find sheep something or a foreign concept, since they don't even necessarily see lamb in the grocery store. Many farmers and ranchers use mechanized means (4-wheelers, etc.) to handle stock, and of course feed lots don't necessarily need dogs. But honestly, the average person probably doesn't really think of meat production at all beyond the packaged product they get in the store, or maybe the latest shocking undercover video that goes viral. What they see are border collies doing agility, flyball, obedience, or catch Westminster or similar on TV. They have no clue that border collies have a real purpose (beyond what they might have seen in the movie Babe) and are used for work on a daily basis throughout this country. To them, the border collie is all those other things first and foremost.

 

J.

[Liz P]

People don't think about agriculture. I've heard some scary things. Ever seen the letter to the editor where the guy rants about hunters killing innocent animals? He wants people to instead buy meat at the grocery store where "it's manufactured."

[KnottyClarence]

The announcer at the national finals, whom I've heard announcing many other trials as well, always refers to the competing dog on the field as " the border collie". Sounds good to me.

[Tilly's Handler]

Liz P<br />You bring up a very valid and truthful point. Most people today are so far removed from the day today production of food that they do not understand how it goes from field to table. The thing I find most disturbing is people will spend weeks researching there choice for internet provider cable ect but go to a grocery store and buy the cheapest from shelf. I had a discussion with a person at a party once about the price difference between farm gate and retail at store. He was complaining he could buy a ready made lasagna for half the price to just buy the ingredients My reply was does that not make you wonder about what you are eating and he just stared at me blankly like that thought had never occurred to him.<br />The other problem when discussing hunting is the Walt Disney generation who believe all wild animals think and act like humans. I was on a rural advisory committee that had a public meeting about coyote problems. A women stood and explained how it was all our faults because we had displaced the wild animals by disturbing there habitat and that if we could not afford to put up predator fencing to protect our livestock we should quit farming then added to that we heard how coyotes and wolves only prey on sick and diseased animals so we must have something wrong with our livestock. Needless to say it got really exciting after that but I am sure if it was her little fluffy kitty cat she found strung out across her front lawn the story would have been different<br />

[Jexa]

A women stood and explained how it was all our faults because we had displaced the wild animals by disturbing there habitat and that if we could not afford to put up predator fencing to protect our livestock we should quit farming then added to that we heard how coyotes and wolves only prey on sick and diseased animals so we must have something wrong with our livestock.

Not to defend someone who is clearly looney, but that woman would actually be correct if she were discussing the coyotes who live where I grew up - the panhandle of Texas. I'm sure things are completely different in eastern Ontario (especially with wolves in the picture), but our coyote population in our area has long been devastated by mange. The few surviving coyotes are small, weak, and sickly. They aren't capable of going after anything that isn't very small, very young, very old, injured, sick, or, their favorite, already dead. They don't hunt in packs like wolves do - it's unusual to see a group of more than 3 at a time, and when you do it's often a mother and small litter. We never worried about our cattle, and even our neighbor, who bred show calves worth thousands didn't worry about coyotes. So she wasn't entirely incorrect...just about 500 miles too far north

 

Julie I think you're right about the average person seeing border collies primarily in the context of dog sports rather than farm/ranch work. They can't fathom that dogs and horses are still the best way to get a lot of stuff done, and more importantly, they don't understand that a AKC Barbie Collie just can't hack it.

[alligande]

There has been a huge disconnect for a long time, I am 49 and went to boarding school in a rural area in Yorkshire and on Sundays would often take a friend to my grandmothers for Sunday lunch. Especially in the fall when the bullocks had just been brought in from the hill farm, they were all cute, fluffy and clean, I would mention that one of them was our Sunday roast ( a small lie as my family has never eaten never eaten it's own beef ) I don't think any of my teenage friends had ever given a moments thought to where their food had come from before, despite the cows and sheep grazing next to the school.

[NJSwede]

The first couple of years my parents had their sheep farm they would name their sheep and you'd find bags in the freezer labeled "Harold - Leg of Lamb". Needless to say, that practice was quickly phased out... I think the ewes just have numbers now, but the breeding ram(s) have names.