highway61 Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 I'm not even in search of a puppy but I know there are a lot of us on line here in the NW so I would like to recommend this breeder. They look pretty legit to me however, I'm still pretty new to BCs so I would like to know what you all think of them? http://www.midnightbordercollies.biz/about-us.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 I wouldn't get a puppy from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jescano Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 6 litters in one year is a lot. pretty colorful too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 I'm curious why you'd want to "recommend" this breeder? I see an emphasis on colors, I see lots of litters and I see passing mention of "herding" but nothing to substantiate the last claim. So what is it about them that makes you want to recommend them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe H Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 There are a lot of us in the NW that would not recommend this breeder. If you want a good quality pup, most often you will not find them advertised on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 Too many litters, too much emphasis on candy colors, no indication that there is any emphasis on working ability. This seems like a good example that "ABCA-registered" is not an indication of good breeding; it simply functions as a registry in cases like this. I didn't have time to look any further but if you check out the breeder of their stud dog, it is a kennel that produces "Border Collies for the pet home or the show ring." Their "Roll of Honor" is all about show wins and performance. There is no indication there that there is any true emphasis on working ability. That's certainly not a recommendation in my opinion. Again, what reason do you have for "recommending" this breeder? There are good breeders of quality working-bred pups in the northwest states, particularly if a person is willing to travel a distance and/or have a pup shipped to them. Why go to a breeder of multiple litters of colorful pups that shows no indication that they are from good working stock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted November 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 I'm curious why you'd want to "recommend" this breeder? I see an emphasis on colors, I see lots of litters and I see passing mention of "herding" but nothing to substantiate the last claim. So what is it about them that makes you want to recommend them? My bad, I meant to say I would like to know if I SHOULD recommend this breeder. I'm not affiliated in anyway, they just happen to be close to me proximity-wise so I was curious, thanks for all the responses. As far as color, should a good breeder only be breeding black & whites? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 A good breeder will breed for working ability and color won't matter. But since it is a rarity that a good working dog is a "candy color" (merle, lilac, etc.), to have a kennel producing scads of candy-colored dogs says that that kennel is not really interested in working ability but is interested in producing the colors that pet folks seem to favor. The simple answer is, "No. Don't recommend a breeder like this." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted November 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 A good breeder will breed for working ability and color won't matter. But since it is a rarity that a good working dog is a "candy color" (merle, lilac, etc.), to have a kennel producing scads of candy-colored dogs says that that kennel is not really interested in working ability but is interested in producing the colors that pet folks seem to favor. The simple answer is, "No. Don't recommend a breeder like this." Got it. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted November 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 If you want a good quality pup, most often you will not find them advertised on the internet. I hadn't thought about that but now that I am, you're most likely right on point Joe. I've only been here since June and of all the "would you recommend this breeder" topics have yet to see anyone endorse a breeder with a website/facebook page. Good to know. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 There are some excellent breeders with pages, but they tend to be simple pages. Many good breeders don't have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDoodle Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 Yankee is from this breeder, they do herd with their dogs but I do not know if they compete. Yankee is doing well in herding lessons, but maybe we just got lucky. I had originally thought they were quite responsible but we grow and learn and I am happy with my dog. I however must say they have recently started having more litters and that was a bit saddening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuneM Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 Full disclosure: I got my lovely blue merle 15 month old BC from Midnight Border collies. I did not get him to do herding but as an all around dog. So far at 15 months he has progressed in search and rescue training to the point of doing totally blind finds in 1- 5 acres; he is turning out to have promise in agility (no major jumping yet - but we will compete next year), hikes with me, goes to doggy day care and gets along with all the dogs he meets. I do admit he is a bit suspicious of strangers. He is obedient, doesn't chew up anything in the house (never has) and is an all around pleasure as a companion. While I understand that there might be concerns with any breeder (all may have their pros and cons depending on what you are looking for) I do find it rather objectionable that someone would discourage another from looking at a breeder because they have a web page! Come on folks. That is standard business practice in this day and age and frankly I would find it suspicious if a breeder didn't have a web page where i could actually do some research. There are both good breeders and bad breeders, with and without web sites, so might be best to stick to some actual knowledge of the dogs produced, not so much speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 Except that most potential puppy buyers don't really do any research. They see a splashy page with lots of pretty pictures and automatically assume they've found a great breeder. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 A comment I wrote a while back on another forum in regards to Midnight Border Collies:"3 litters already sold this year + 3 current litters + 2 or more litters planned for this year = 8+ litters for 2013... they have seven breeding bitches (or more, what the heck are 'guest dams'?!), no photos, brags, or proof of any ability to work livestock... nothing that shows they do anything to 'prove' their dogs' worthiness of being bred, no health test results posted anywhere, having a litter out of their bitches every single year... ...With a large number of females that they only breed to one in-house male, they're cranking out as many litters a year as they can without any thought or regard to new genetics or bettering the breed in any way, shape, or form. They're breeding for candy-colored puppies to make money... just because they're not housed in dirty, filthy, cramped cages doesn't mean it isn't a puppy mill." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 [Deleted because I'm tired and cross and should not be in public just now, even if it's only virtual public.]Carry on, nothing to see here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 While I understand that there might be concerns with any breeder (all may have their pros and cons depending on what you are looking for) I do find it rather objectionable that someone would discourage another from looking at a breeder because they have a web page! Come on folks. That is standard business practice in this day and age and frankly I would find it suspicious if a breeder didn't have a web page where i could actually do some research. There are both good breeders and bad breeders, with and without web sites, so might be best to stick to some actual knowledge of the dogs produced, not so much speculation. As I look back over this thread, it appears to me that the original reservation voiced was "If you want a good quality pup, most often you will not find them advertised on the internet." I agree with that statement whole-heartedly. There's a waiting list for most well-bred pups before they're born. No need to post their photos on the web. I also agree with Liz P that there *are* some excellent breeders with web sites (and I can easily come up with half a dozen or more such, and no, I'm not going to post their names, because I don't think I'd be doing them any favor to do so). As Liz says, their web pages tend to be short, and they don't have pages and pages of photos of puppies still for sale or information on how to tape their ears to get just that perfect set. Most will devote some space to the *accomplishments* of their current dogs - and that doesn't mean just showing a photo of them chasing sheep, it means real accomplishments - winning or placing well at some of the most competitive USBCHA-sanctioned trials around. It's been said many times on the BC Boards, but apparently it bears repeating. If you're in search of a working-bred Border collie, do your homework. Don't just search for websites. Read the "pinned" topics, then go back and read them again. Memorize all the "red flags". Go to trials, attend clinics (you can audit even if you don't own a dog), get to meet dogs and handlers. Volunteer. You'll find yourself a part of a community. And you'll be much better equipped to differentiate between well-bred dogs and sporter collies. And if you're protesting that you don't have time for any of this... maybe you should ask why you're considering a Border collie in the first place. There are breeds of dog out there that will demand less of you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 While I understand that there might be concerns with any breeder (all may have their pros and cons depending on what you are looking for) I do find it rather objectionable that someone would discourage another from looking at a breeder because they have a web page! Come on folks. That is standard business practice in this day and age and frankly I would find it suspicious if a breeder didn't have a web page where i could actually do some research. There are both good breeders and bad breeders, with and without web sites, so might be best to stick to some actual knowledge of the dogs produced, not so much speculation. It's not really about whether or not a breeder uses the internet or advertizes that's the problem. The problem is that they're not breeding with the betterment of the breed in mind. You can't do that if you're not breeding with proven herding ability (not herding lines or herding backgrounds) in your breeding stock. And you can't do it if you're breeding for colors. There's absolutely no indication on their website that these folks are breeding proven working trials dogs, or even proven working farm dogs, but there's lots to suggest that they're interested in producing colors and that they're doing agility. Neither of those factors are going to do squat to recommend them as breeders of true, working border collies. The issue of having a website isn't why folks here aren't considering them reputable. But what they're saying about their dogs and their breeding program on that site is what gives people pause. Having a website isn't a strike against a breeder . . . but the fact is that most of the reputable border collie breeders just aren't the kind of people who invest their effort in websites. Therefore, the web isn't necessarily the best place to do your research in this particular situation. See the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 They have also announced that they've partnered with another kennel so that they can provide even more puppies. Lovely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chianne Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 As someone that speaks from experience from choosing bad breeders, I can only tell you to follow the advise you are given here from experienced border collie people. I will likely still make mistakes, but at least now I know to come here and ask for feedback here first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felonmach Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 actually the quote was that it is a rarity that candy colored dogs have good working ability. im saying my midnight bc does have all of the qualities you could ever want in agood working dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 "Candy coloured dogs have inferior herding ability" is not the same as "Someone breeding a lot of candy coloured dogs is probably focusing on finding good colour instead of finding good herding ability."In the same fashion, "A breeder with a webpage is a bad breeder" is not the same as "Oftentimes good breeders don't have webpages."You're putting words in peoples' mouths a bit, I think. In both cases people made the latter statement and you quoted it as being the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 "Let sleeping topics lie..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 ^^Exactly. Why people feel a need to resurrect an old topic just so they can defend a breeder is beyond me. Oh, and breeding to a daughter of Pleat means pretty much nothing. Yes Patrick has a website. No he's not breeding for pretty colors or sport dogs, nor is a dropping a bunch of litters every year. Making excuses about why one can't prove one's dogs is simply another hallmark of a bad breeder. So you're not exactly doing the breeder any favors there either.... ETA: And if anyone can read this entire thread and then still complain that the folks here are saying website = bad, well then it's clear to me that the only thing they can find to take issue with is a passing website comment and not the miller aspects, or breeding for color, or not proving their dogs. leaving the website comments aside (even though numerous folks clearly stated that having a website in and of itself is not THE problem) and what do you have left to defend this breeder? That your year old dog might be a potential AGILITY star? That someone had you breed your dog to a Pleat daughter? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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