A lot of issues, Main issue impacted anal glands

[josey]

I have my border collie on a raw food diet and have had her for it for maybe 2 years. she would get a thigh and a drumstick a day. At first she lost weight, 9 lbs. Then she began gaining it back. She now weights 62 lbs and since she is tall I feel that 50 lbs should be her weight. I walk her about a mile a day, and she has a very large yard.

 

Then I read that she should have more of a variety of food, so I bought her some pork, which she has eaten now and then without problems, and she always had liver once a week with no problem. And sometimes gizzards without problems. But then I got her some beef tongue and hearts and gave her 1/2 lb of (one or the other) for her evening meal. Next thing I find she smells, and I check her out and it is her rear end, so I bathe her rear end, but the next day the same thing happened, and this went on for 4 days. I am thinking it is diarrhea so I took her off the heart and tongue. She seemed okay.

 

Then I took her to the vet for a growth that he took off, and he tells me that she had an impacted anal gland and has incontinence. Put her on hormones for the latter, although i was not so sure of that latter diagnosis because she always urinates when she is scared, part of her fear aggression that she has had since a puppy. She also urinates when she is excited. but he said he knows she has incontinence this because there is a brown or red streak where she urinates.

 

I am most worried about her anal problems. So she is off hearts and tongue now and I am giving her a thigh one day and a leg the next, and then 3/4 c. Taste of the Wild each evening because it has 4 percent fiber and I had read that fiber helps prevent anal impacts. Does it? But the 20 percent fat in Touch of the Wild bothers me because I need to get her weight down. Still, I feel her diet is more healthy with Taste of the Wild.

 

Does anyone have any ideas?

[Sue R]

With regards to fat content, I like to see a feed that has a percentage of fat that is 2/3 that of the percentage of protein, at least for an active dog. Now, I would not consider a one mile walk a day and being loose in a yard to really be providing much in the way of exercise for a dog, though. Unless your dog is unusually active in your yard, you would probably find that she is really engaging in little beneficial exercise when she is by herself.

 

What you can do is reduce the amount you feed her by a reasonable quantity. If you are concerned about vitamins and minerals if you are doing that, you may wish to give her a vitamin/mineral supplement (one for dogs).

 

I don't feed raw except as a supplement to a kibble diet but what I understand about feeding raw is that not only do you want a variety of sources (chicken, pork, lamb, organ meats, etc.) but also to make sure that it is a balanced diet that includes all the sorts of nutrients that the dog needs. There are lots of raw feeders here who can help you with devising a good raw diet, or steer you in the direction of good sources.

 

Some animals are prone to impacted anal glands and sometimes the solution is to have them expressed on a regular or as-needed basis. You can have a vet, tech, or groomer do this, or you can learn how to do it yourself. I would think that a diet that includes a good amount of raw meaty bones would produce a firm stool that will help reduce the likelihood of impaction. Again, there are many people here who can advise you on this much more than I can.

 

As for the beef parts, some dogs do not do well with certain protein sources. We used to have a dog who would have diarrhea when he ate any turkey, and he finally reached a point where even a little turkey (like licking out a pan that had been scraped out after making gravy) would make him seriously ill. In addition, the flora in the digestive tract may take a little while to adjust to any new food - when I introduce something new or something the dogs haven't had for a while, I do it very gradually, never in a quantity like half-a-pound. Just a little bit, a few bites today, a few tomorrow, and a gradual increase if I see the dog is handling it well.

 

I would be concerned about a red or brown streak when urinating - are you talking about a stain on her fur or redness/brownness in the urine? That makes me wonder about a urinary tract infection, which could also be a reason for over-frequent urination and/or leakage of urine.

[waffles]

I think you should put her back on kibble. I feed my dog a mostly raw diet ( i do feed some commercial food) but from what you describe I don't think you have a good grasp of what that diet should be. Feeding your dog nothing but bone in chicken parts is not doing her health any good. A raw diet should be varied in types of protein sources as well as different parts of those animals. Your dog also needs organs and not just liver. It should be a diet mostly based on red meat with little bone and litte organs added. I would suggest feeding her kibble until you feel you can better feed her a varied raw diet.

She got diarrhea from the heart because you introduced a lot of new meat (1/2 lb is a lot) that she never had before. I would suggest reintroducing it with just a small piece, like golf ball size. She also should not be eating so much bone (everyday is a lot!) I am surprised she isn't constipated.

I mean this in the kindest way. Feeding a 100% raw diet isn't for everyone. I would suggest feeding kibble and adding some raw in if you feel like it (such as bone-in pieces for teeth cleaning) That way you know she is getting the nutrition she needs.

ETA. A one mile walk, at least for me is probably 15 min long which is not much at all for most dogs. I think more exercise will help get that weight off. Can you play ball or frisbee with her? Does she have dog friends that can come over to play ? Or take her for longer walks?

[josey]

Thanks so much. My idea, and I think I posted it, is to give her a thigh one day and a drumstick the next with 1/2 or 3/4 cup of what you called kibble (Touch of the Wild). Not sure if that is too much kibble. But I can just give her a thigh a day along with kibble.

 

My walk is 30 to 40 minutes a day. I am only guessing that it is a mile. I should drive it and see. I let her sniff things when we walk which also slows us down some.

 

When I play ball with her she only brings it back 3 or 4 times and then wants to lie down. It gets frustrating. I need to work with her because that is the best idea for exercise.

 

She has no dog friends.

 

The red or brown streak was on her fur not in her urine. think he said "brown."

 

thanks for all your posts.

[rlwzgd]

Right, but is the fur stained because the urine is that color or just from the amount of time she's had trouble... I usually try to get my pups to pee on a surface (rock hard dirt, usually, or gravel) once a week so I can check the color. Maybe try something like that?

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but TotW is about 370kcal/cup... You are only feeding her 500kcal/day? I think my guys eat more than that, but they also play with each other quite a bit.

 

I understood your first post to mean that you only fed raw chicken parts, too. Given that you meant in addition to kibble, it's probably fine, though bone every day is taxing on them (constipating + a lot of calcium). It's been years since I did research. I think I remember too much calcium causing stones, but I'd have to go back and check. I settled on no more than 10% bone, ground into the meat and haven't changed it since. We do supplement with the occasional whole egg (shell and all) and antlers as the nutritionist I used to speak with wasn't convinced they were getting enough calcium. He was happy with 2 additional egg shells/week.

 

Other than that, we rotate protein weekly, whatever I can find as variety is key...

[jvw]

When I fed my dogs raw they got bone every day. It was not taxing on them at all. From what I read I understood there needed to be bone or at least bonemeal added if it was just meat. There is an ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio. I forget what it is now. But if you feet just raw meat without bone you will not get the ratio correct. My dogs never got constipated but then again I also fed them plenty of vegetables with their meals and as treats.

[waffles]

 

When I fed my dogs raw they got bone every day. It was not taxing on them at all. From what I read I understood there needed to be bone or at least bonemeal added if it was just meat. There is an ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio. I forget what it is now. But if you feet just raw meat without bone you will not get the ratio correct. My dogs never got constipated but then again I also fed them plenty of vegetables with their meals and as treats.

There are many different philosophies of feeding raw that people follow. I don't feed veggies and there is no need to feed bone each and everyday, at least none that I have come across. My dog gets a bone in piece 3 times a week and a couple eggs and does just fine. Watch for loose stools. If they're too loose add more bone. A raw diet shouldn't be based on bones. There is no need for bone meal either. But like I said there is more than one way people believe in feeding raw. You may have been feeding what some called BARF.

[Maralynn]

How old is this dog? Has she had blood work done to make sure there isn't another issue going on that could be causing the weight gain? That just seems like a small amount of food for a dog that size

[Sue R]

How old is this dog? Has she had blood work done to make sure there isn't another issue going on that could be causing the weight gain? That just seems like a small amount of food for a dog that size

 

This is a very good idea. I have a smaller bitch at 35# and she gets a heaping half-cup twice a day of the kibble we use (Eagle Pack Holistic Select Chicken and Rice, at about 385 calories per cup), a raw egg daily, and supplemental fat in the evening meal, a small amount of hand-fed tiny treats, and usually a raw bone once or twice a week, for the chew value and for clean teeth.

 

She is walked/run between three and four miles a day (we try for an hour and sometimes get a bit less and sometimes a bit more) and ball-fetching when the weather and season allows.

 

She's 11 years old, spends the day resting in her crate if we are at work or loose in the house if we are home, and is very fit and trim.

 

My ideas would be that if your dog is that overweight on such a limited diet, could she have a metabolic issue (as mentioned) and/or is her exercise regime really not exercise at all. It sounds to me that if you are only covering a mile in 45 minutes, that you are just strolling along - which is fine but which is providing little real exercise and no real aerobic benefit to her. And I'd say that her being out in your large yard but not really doing anything, is the same - no real exercise and no aerobic benefit.

 

You may wish to make your walk time more of an exercise time - I know that improving our walks has not only resulted in fitter dogs but also helped me, although the losing weight aspect still seems to elude me!

 

If you can, you might want to opt for at least some basic bloodwork to make sure that all systems are functioning reasonably well.

 

PS - An obese dog, like an obese person, is more at risk for diabetes and its attendant ills like kidney failure. The extremely obese dog of relatives was put down at barely age 12 due to kidney failure. He had been obese for years and it was a shame to see how hard it was for him to be active at all, even though he wanted to be. He had, admittedly, been horribly overfed for years on a diet of very poor quality kibble, which contributed nothing positive to his health and well-being. Once he was placed on a limited diet of a special kidney formula, he began to lose weight and feel better, but the damage had been done and he was euthanized at an age when many of these dogs are still very active and healthy.

 

PSS - To be totally honest, I am obese myself, and I know how much it adversely impacts my life. I need someone like me to control my intake like I control my dogs'. I eat something and tell them they can't have it because it's junk. Talk about hypocrisy on my part.

[josey]

hi, she is not extremely obese, just that you can't feel her ribs. she is 7 years old. i would think that a chicken thigh and a cup of kibble would be enough for a dog, but i don't know for sure.

 

i will have to exercise her with a ball because i can't speed walk due to foot problems. I just checked, and we walk 1 mile a day.

 

She had a thyroid test, and it was normal.

 

It looks like she is only getting 464 calories a day, and yet she doesn't lose weight. that isn't much in the way of calories.

[juliepoudrier]

I think the solution is more exercise. A slow one-mile walk isn't gomg to be nearly enough to help her lose weight. I'm not sure what your definition of extremely obese is, but if she now weighs 62 pounds and you think her ideal weight is 50 pounds then consider that you want her to lose more than 20% of her body weight. In human terms that would be like a 150-lb human losing 30 lbs. That's a good chunk of weight, and if you can't feel her ribs at all, then she probably does fit the definition of obese.

 

Some dogs are prone to impacted anal glands, but I've always understood that the fiber/bulk in a raw diet should help prevent such issues.

 

And if you're feeding her a cup of kibble a day, why not just limit the raw to 2-3 times a week (or eliminate it altogether for now, until you get the weight issue under control) and see if that makes a difference? If she's 12 (or even 5) pounds overweight the same principle applies as with humans trying to lose weight: you need fewer calories in and more calories expended. You can always add plain canned pumpkin, green beans, other steamed veggies to the kibble to make her feel fuller without adding a signficant number of calories.

 

And she definitely needs more exercise.

 

 

J.

[Gideon's girl]

Sometimes with raw fed dogs, the stool is so much smaller that it doesn't put enough pressure on the anal glands to express them while defecating. Those dogs usually benefit from at least some of their meals having fiber added.

[GentleLake]

you can't feel her ribs.

 

Then she's too heavy. You should be able to feel ribs easily, without having to push at all to do it.

 

 

i would think that a chicken thigh and a cup of kibble would be enough for a dog, but i don't know for sure.

 

It depends on the dog, it's size, metabolism and exercise level. That would be too much food for 2 of my 3 dogs. And a leisurely one mile walk isn't much exercise for a BC, even at her age.

 

 

t looks like she is only getting 464 calories a day, and yet she doesn't lose weight. that isn't much in the way of calories.

 

Some dogs are easy keepers. Many BCs are. IMO, it's more important to look at the dog's condition than it is to look at the amount of food.

[GentleLake]

And if you're feeding her a cup of kibble a day, why not just limit the raw to 2-3 times a week (or eliminate it altogether for now, until you get the weight issue under control) and see if that makes a difference?

 

Personally, I'd be inclined to do just the opposite, cut out the kibble, because carbs & fat are more likely to produce excess weight than lean meat, especially in an inactive dog. But then my preference is to feed raw in general. And I'd probably reduce fat by removing the skin.

 

But if you're going to feed raw the way you have been, with such limited variety, you're probably better off either switching to kibble or combining the two.

 

I sometimes feed a whole chicken leg quarter, though I don't feed a lot of chicken. But leg quarters can vary considerably in size, anywhere from 1/2 lb. to a lb.. My dogs, who weigh 47, 39 and 34 lbs. all eat about the same amount of food, which averages between 3/4 to 1 lb. daily. The smallest sometimes gets more. This is what I mean by different dogs needing different amounts. So if they get a large leg quarter one day, they'll get a smaller meal to compensate the next day.

 

I board a fat 10 year old border collie. He's normally fed 1 cup of kibble and 1/4 can of canned food, and it's just too much food for him. He's here for a month at a time and I cut his kibble back to 3/4 cup and he gets more exercise here running w/ my dogs than he does at home. I've never weighed him, but I can see that he's loosing weight, just on that small reduction (well, I don't give him the large milk bone his owner does each day either) and increase in activity, he's losing weight.

 

I'm guessing his ideal weight would be around 48-50 lbs., close to what you think your dog should be. And you're feeding your dog as much or more than what he's getting, which, simply put, is just too much food.

 

Edited to correct: My dogs eat anywhere from 1/2 to 1 lb. of food a day (raw diet), averaging around 3/4 lb.

[urge to herd]

You can try using a flirt pole with her, to get her to run around your yard a bit more and not put any more strain on your feet. I've got pretty bad arthritis in my right foot and I can't walk very fast. Well, I can, but then I can't walk for a day or so after that.

 

Use a fishing pole or bamboo cane, tie some line or string to the end, then tie a favorite toy to the end. You might want to 'flavor' the toy with some beef or chicken juice the first few times to get her interested.

 

Then you entice her to play with it, the way you would a cat. This will take a few sessions, but keep going. Vary the speed and the motion, drag it a bit, then make it jump, all the while keeping it close enough that she could catch it. Use some of whatever amount of kibble you're feeding per day to reward her for 'capturing' the toy.

 

You may need to wash the toy every couple days, or buy some cheap toys at a thrift store and just replace them for a while. You could also stuff a small kong with something good smelling, then wash it and re-use.

 

If the flirt pole thing works, then you can begin to stop her every few minutes and get her focus back on you. Then ask her to sit, lay down, work on teaching her some simple tricks. This will wear her out mentally, which is always a good thing for a border collie. Keep that up - flirt pole for a few minutes, then some obedience training or tricks, then flirt pole again.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[juliepoudrier]

My suggestion for cutting out raw was simply because I didn't think Josey has done the research needed to feed raw in a way that is beneficial to her dog. At least kibble should meet the dog's minimum nutrition requirements. Otherwise, I agree that raw could be a good choice for helping a dog lose weight. I just don't think it's a good choice in this case.

 

(Not trying to offend anyone; just explaining my reasoning for suggesting kibble over raw for this particular situation.)

 

J.

[GentleLake]

And I think you're probably right, Julie, which is why I said the OP might be better off switching to kibble if she's going to continue feeding raw the was she was.

 

So we're in complete agreement on this one.

[Gideon's girl]

My suggestion for cutting out raw was simply because I didn't think Josey has done the research needed to feed raw in a way that is beneficial to her dog. At least kibble should meet the dog's minimum nutrition requirements. Otherwise, I agree that raw could be a good choice for helping a dog lose weight. I just don't think it's a good choice in this case.

 

(Not trying to offend anyone; just explaining my reasoning for suggesting kibble over raw for this particular situation.)

 

J.

I also agree. It sounds like the raw is too big a portion of the diet for it to not be balanced.

[MrSnappy]

You don't need to switch to kibble; you could simply feed a proper raw diet, or at least one that resembles one. Are ground meats not available where you are?

 

My dogs eat rotating ground meats, sometimes with bone in, sometimes not. Organ meat is mixed in them all, and some have ground veggies for no real reason except it's in some of the stuff I buy. Their variety is usually turkey, beef, duck, lamb, tripe and herring. They get a different meat each day. I buy all of it, excepting the herring, in the same shop. Sometimes my meat chicken processors (I raise my own meat birds, and I have a couple that does all the processing for me in exchange for half the birds) bring my dogs moose, elk and other meats that they hunt. That's breakfast, which they get with a raw egg, or plain yogurt, or cottage cheese. For dinner they either get chicken backs/necks, turkey necks, or pork bones.

 

The dogs who are lazy/chunky get reduced portions, and I bulk up the remainder with frozen green beans (high in fibre, filling, low in calories). They also get Coconut Oil in their breakfast, and some of them get joint supplements.

 

This is not difficult to do - I am feeding 8 dogs and three cats a raw diet and they all do very well on it. But if you can't offer a bigger variety for whatever reason, I agree that a quality kibble is the solution.

 

I don't feed weight bearing bones, incidentally, as they tend to be hard on teeth.

 

RDM

[BCjetta]

Dogs that are overweight can have more problems with the anal glands as well. They can get fat deposits around the anal area which make it harder for the anal glands to properly express.

[josey]

I began feeding her a thigh a day without skin, and then Touch of the Wild, which is meat and sweet potatoes but more nutrients. I am just not feeding her a lot at night, 3/4 c.. Since doing this she has better BMs.

 

I am going back to walking her at the river and campus where she can run off leash. And I am trying to get her to play ball. Never heard of a flirt pole. Interesting. She didn't get impacted anal glands until I gave her hearts and tongue. But chicken alone was too constipating and could have contributed somehow. I will see how her diet goes. If she begins gaining weight on TotW. I will cut it down, and if still gaining, then I will do something else, like back to raw food, chicken in a.m. and pork or beef in p.m. but less than what she was getting. She still gets liver once a week and has no problem with it that I know of.

[GentleLake]

If you go back to feeding raw, liver should be 5% of her total diet and another 5% should be some other organ, like kidney, spleen or pancreas (heart is a muscle, so not considered organ for nutritional purposes.) 10%-20% of her diet should be bone, and the remaining 70-80% should be meat. It's OK to add some steamed or pureed vegetables, but they're not necessary and should only be a small portion of her diet (I use ice cube trays to freeze my dogs' veggies portions, which they get one of some days), unless you're using them as a filler (in which case you don't want starchy veggies) because she's hungry on reduced portions.

 

If you don't give her both variety of meat sources and the organs, you'll not be meeting her nutritional needs.

 

Raw feeding isn't for everyone. Not everyone wants to bother trying to source the variety needed at a reasonable cost. So there's no need to feel guilty if you're not up to doing it right and you decide to go with kibble.

 

And you're definitely better off going with a good quality kibble than not doing raw right. . . .

[Gloria Atwater]

I can't really advise you, but please do listen to people here.

The point they are making is, if you're only giving your dog one source of meat, one kind of meat, you are not giving her a balanced diet. And if you suddenly feed her half a pound of organ meat, that's awfully rich for a new protein source.

You've got some great menu ideas here. Please do look into them. Good luck with your good dog.

~ Gloria

[mum24dog]

I can't comment on the dietary aspect but I'm not entirely surprised that josey's dog has impacted anal glands with so little exercise.

 

Walking isn't enough, however far. Dogs need to be able to run to help the glands empty themselves.

 

Overweight dog / lack of exercise / inappropriate diet are all factors that can cause impacted anal glands and it seems we may have a combination of all 3 here.

 

Some dogs are just more prone to such problems though because of the way they are made.

[josey]

i have no idea if my vet was telling me the truth about her anal glands or not, because he wasn't about her so-called "incontinence" which she does not have. and when he took off a lump he said he didn't send it to the lab. i quit going to him because my dog is scared to death of him now. and i just learned of his bad reputation with animals. she also had a bm daily on our walks, but when i gave her too much organ meat she had diarrhea. thanks to all.