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Christina

Seeking a very specific kind of breeder- can anyone help?

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Here's what I think - Christina isn't as obtuse as she appears and she's enjoying this. Good luck to her. I'd sure never sell her a puppy or recommend her to anyone based on what I've seen here. Oh, and I have a dog from Creekside...you'd never get one.

 

Btw, I did ENS with the 2 litters that I bred. It wasn't hard to do and didn't take a ton of time and I have no idea if it added to the super temperaments that the pups ended up having. I don't know if I'd do it again because I think just lots of plain old handling of the puppies that I did anyway would have been sufficient.

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Actually I am incredibly hurt and hate that I even got involved in this. But go you. I am an incredible dog owner and would give any Border Collie in my possession a fantastic home. Congratulations for thinking you know anything about me and being so entirely wrong.

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You know what is really sick? After all of this, after I have walked away from my computer in tears twice today I am STILL here because I so badly want to be involved with this incredible breed. Why is it necessary to put up with this kind of abuse to do that? Why are YOU allowed to bully somebody just because they don't agree with something that you believe in? What happened to being kind to one another even if you disagree?

 

I am going to go to Nationals in a few weeks and I am going to talk to breeders even though my pride has been severely damaged by this forum and even though I am praying that the few of you are only a small part of this entire community. Until afew posts ago I have said NOTHING to warrant these comments. I don't know if I'm supposed to trust all the people who messaged me and essentially said to give up because you people are not worth it or if my opinion really is that bad.

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Being a incredible owner is not the same as being the right type of person to entrust with a unaltered dog knowing that the buyer has the intentions on breeding. Just because you own it and have the rights to breed does not mean it should be bred, odds are that a novice, even 5 years later won't be able to properly evaluate breeding quality let alone make a close to accurate decision as to what type of dog the individual should be mated to.

 

Often times buyers forget that when they are looking for a pup with breeding rights they also have to find a breeder who is willing to entrust them with their dogs and lines knowing that their name will go on those pups produced by that newbee breeding regardless of if the pups are good or bad. Some breeders don't worry about, others prefer to steer very clear once it is determined that the prospective buyer is far from aligned with the breeders goals and values.


Go back to school Christina, find a good mentor, buy a nicely started dog and get yourself out on the trial field, after you get around the course a few times with a few dogs that other people have produced and get a understanding as to what traits need to be selected for above all else then think about making your first breeding.

 


Some advice that really turned out to be true, you will know when you have a breeding quality dog when handlers that are far superior in ability and have proven that they can produce quality working dogs inquire about pups by or out of your dog or when they recommend your dog as the right mate for a client's dog. When that time comes there is a way better chance that you will be doing right by the breed, but even then if you have to be tough skinned because there will still be many that disagree, such is life.

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I'm certain you have received private messages offering assistance and guidance, take them up on the offers, get cracken so that when you do make that first mating you are not only a incredible owner but you are also setting the foundation of being a incredible working breeder, not just another breeder claiming to be breeding working dogs.

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Go back to school Christina, find a good mentor, buy a nicely started dog and get yourself out on the trial field, after you get around the course a few times with a few dogs that other people have produced and get a understanding as to what traits need to be selected for above all else then think about making your first breeding.

She doesn't want to breed working(sheep) dogs. She wants to breed service dogs(if she was going to breed, from what I understand.) And that is not breeding to a working standard.

 

I don't want to step on any toes or bully Christina anymore than she feels she has already been bullied. But I think the reason people "attacked" you was because you wouldn't mind breeding a dog to a dual registered dog, and you couldn't see why that was a problem since it was registered with both AKC and ABCA/ISDS/CBCA. They don't want their dogs bred with any AKC dog, dual registered or not. Because the AKC doesn't have any working standard, only a physical(looks) standard.

 

I am surprised though that anyone would suggest getting an AKC border collie for anything(flamincomet, not saying you suggested it, but you said people suggested it to you). Even for service dog work or SAR. I've only ever heard bad things about them and their temperament(unstable)

 

I personally think that a well bred working border collie can make an AMAZING service dog(which other people, even the people you have considered rude, have stated) because of how biddable and willing to work with their person they are. They are the perfect size, not big and bulky like a lab/golden/gsd(not that I have anything against them), but definitely not delicate and can go anywhere and do anything.

 

I'm sure you are a wonderful dog owner and your dogs are very happy and fulfilled in their lives/work. But that doesn't mean you'd make a good breeder. I'm assume that you'll say something along the lines of "You don't know me, what I know, what I can or can't do." But it seems like you've not really had much experience trialing and working with working(sheep) border collies, so how can these people-who truly love and support the breed for it's original purpose and don't want to see it bred for other reasons- support you(a novice) wanting to breed for anything other than stock work. And I'm sure even if you were looking for a working dog, to work stock, they still wouldn't be gung ho for you to breed just because you don't have the experience, yet.

 

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/early_neurological_stimulation_en.pdf

 

if that is what you were talking about by ENS I don't see how that would be better than a working pup that is raised in/around a farm, going for rides to the store, meeting all sorts of strangers, going to strange places, trials, meeting all sorts of other dogs(at trials I'm assuming there's lots of dogs). And there's also a lot of socialisation and introducing to new surfaces/textures/etc once you get the pup home at 8 weeks. It's not as if the puppy turns 8 weeks and a window shuts for you to show it anything new.

 

I think your best bet would be to find a reputable working breeder and just talk to them. Tell them exactly what you want/need.

 

Anyways... not really sure where I'm going with this anymore. Just felt the need to say something after watching this thread from the very beginning and watching it all unravel and turn into a mess.

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-Breeds working dogs.

-Will not make me sign a spay/neuter contract. Gives buyers the option to breed their dogs later on if the dog is a good prospect.

 

 

This dog is an extraordinary working dog and has placed several times in USBCHA trials but also does a little agilty on the side.

 

 

I plan on trialing in USBCHA.

 

 

 

If a good working dog was dual registered I personally would have no problem breeding to said working dog if it would benefit my stock in the long run.

 

 

Because I geniunely care about the breed I choose to not compromsie working ability to do this.

 

No! I was waiting for this point to come up. The difference is in raising the puppy. I like working Border Collies. I don't want to change anything about that except the way the dog *I* choose to use as a service dog is raised.

 

 

----

 

 

She doesn't want to breed working(sheep) dogs. She wants to breed service dogs(if she was going to breed, from what I understand.) And that is not breeding to a working standard.

 

Um. What?

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So your main goal is breeding for working border collies then... not service dogs?

 

Still missing how much experience you have actually working stock/trialing

 

I am on your side, chill.

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Yes my main goal is to breed working Border Collies, not service dogs. I want the dog I get to possibly be able to fill the shoes of my present service dog but there is never a guarantee and I am well aware of that. If said dog does not turn out to be a wonderful service dog, no harm done, I have other options. The dog will then only be a stock dog instead of a service dog and a stock dog (I don't want to offend anyone again but I literally cannot find any other way to put that- this is nothing against stock dogs).

For example:

Dog is either both a service dog and a trialing dog.

OR

Dog fails as a service dog and is only a trialing dog, not both.

OR


Dog fails at both and does something else.

Under all three circumstances I would keep the dog.

I hope that's clear.

I have minimal experience as a stockdog handler. I have worked my own dogs numerous times but cannot any more because one has no herding instinct and the other has an injury that prevents her from doing so.

 

My partner's dog, from Patrick Shannahan, will be started on stock when he is old enough.

 

I am looking a year out from now, possibly longer. Presumably my partner's puppy will give both of us experience with stock work to begin with.

 

We will have both dogs sent out for training if they show promise as trialing dogs. I know you learn more off a trained dog than an untrained dog as a novice.

 

I would wait until my dog were at open level to breed and I would honor any stipluations on the breeding contract, including allowing the breeder of my dog to have a say in who the sire of the litter is.

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This is my opinion only, and if I ever do breed I don't plan on it until I've trialed in USBCHA for a while and have the land and stock to work them as I feel they should. But, a person can have separate goals without compromising working ability, as long as they realize one cannot compromise the other. For example, if, I ever bred it would be proven working dogs, with the goal to produce better working dogs. And if, as I watched the litter develop, I noticed that one or more of the puppies seemed to have a temperament suitable for service dog work I would keep them and train them (or sell to a service home who is capable of training themselves) and place them in a service dog home. If none of the puppies turned out to have a suitable temperament I would rely on donations, or possibly shelter dogs if a candidate arose, to satisfy my service dog training goals. I would not breed specifically for a service dog temperament, breeding a good working dog would be my top priority. If I happen to have a good working dog who also has a service dog temperament I'd consider it icing on the cake, but ultimately my breeding decision would be based on working ability (and health and temperament).

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I'm going to close this thread now that it appears to have stabilized and is ending on a relatively good note. Before I do, though, I need to say this.

 

Christina,

 

If you are genuinely seeking information and help, you are more likely to be successful if you don't tell the people you're seeking it from that you don't like to be around them, or accuse them of

 

  • being too lazy or stupid to understand your posts
  • being a clique
  • freaking out when anyone even tries to disagree with them
  • rolling their eyes, stomping their feet and screaming
  • being arrogant and ignorant (for not supporting the AKC)
  • throwing nonsense at you
  • taking things you say out of context "so you can drag it through the mud and shame me once again for asking for specifics"
  • having a snotty attitude towards you
  • bullying and abusing you
  • "brown nosing up to Julie and Eileen"
  • etc.

Even if you perceive that as what's happening here (and I realize it's possible that you do), don't you see that this is a poor strategy? Is it likely to make anyone want to help you? Isn't it likely that they will remember your accusations (which I'm sure you would term abuse if they were directed at you) the next time you ask for information (just as many remember your "breeding red working dogs" thread), and not want to respond? It certainly leads to escalation on both sides, and makes for a toxic thread. Enough toxic threads, and people won't want to participate anymore, so you will have contributed to making the Boards less helpful to other newcomers, not just to yourself.

 

I have no doubt there are people writing you privately telling you to ignore this person or that person or everybody here because they are bullies, or useless, or whatever. I could probably tell you exactly who they are. They may feel they are being constructive in doing this, and you may feel they are too, but if their private support encourages you to tell the people you're seeking help from how unsatisfactory they are and how many people secretly disparage them, I'm not sure the end result is all that constructive.

 

Think it over. Think too about how your initial post could have been taken as saying, "I have very high standards, and I realize that very few of the breeders you consider good will meet them, but surely there must be one or two, so please tell me who they are." But people did not choose to be offended -- they tried to address you with information they thought it would be good for you to know. If they were mistaken -- if it was information you did not want -- you could have simply ignored it. Yes, they too could have ignored some of the things you said that they didn't care for, but you are the one seeking help and they are the ones who are here to offer it, for free, to you and others who ask. When you are asking for help, it really doesn't work to dictate to the people offering it what they should say and how they should say it.

 

Think it over.

 

Finally, if you want to discuss this with me, please do so privately, by PM or email.

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