Seeking a very specific kind of breeder- can anyone help?

[GentleLake]

^^Well said, Julie.

[juliepoudrier]

Seriously? You bring up the topic of dual registration and then don't want to hear opinions you don't like?

 

 

J.

[Gideon's girl]

I don't understand how people get sucked into this conversation over and over again, but here we are. It is the point of view of this board that Border Collies do not belong in AKC and Border Collie people should not support AKC. Nobody has been trying to hide this fact, it is clearly ALL OVER the whole website. If you don't like, can't understand, won't agree to that POV, you should still not be surprised that it is here and will come up every time you post asking about a breeder. If you don't want to hear it, ask your questions somewhere else, some place that supports your POV. If people here don't support your POV, why would they suggest a breeder?

 

Sorry, but that has been wanting to scream out of me for a while now. I'll just go away now.

[Maralynn]

 

It doesn't really matter since I have no need for AKC registeration.

 

Color me confused. Why even bring it up if you have no need for it??

[juliepoudrier]

 

 

I'll get to the rest of your post in a minute, but my understanding of that sentence is very different. I took that to mean that they don't condone breeding solely because your dog excels at AKC herding- which is completely understandable. I plan on trialing in USBCHA. They have a "how-to" on registering your dog with the AKC on their site as well.

 

It doesn't really matter since I have no need for AKC registeration.

 

To me, this:

"It is our goal to keep our carefully bred working dogs' bloodlines undiluted by "show" and/or "sport" lines, therefore every puppy from Creekside who’s future includes anything but a focus on stock work MUST be spayed or neutered at a suitable age*. "

 

very specifically says that they don't want their pups used in breeding programs that aren't directly related to USBCHA type work. They go on to clarify that AKC herding doesn't constitute working to any level worthy of breeding from. I'm not quite sure how you can interpret that as them not condoning breeding dogs who excel at AKC. The sentence I quoted above clearly states that they don't want their "carefully bred working ...bloodlines" diluted [by conformation, sport, etc. bloodlines].

 

Oh well, I don't know why I bother. People who deliberately choose to ignore the reality of what AKC means for the usefulness of dogs aren't likely to listen to any well-reasoned arguments to the contrary.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

Good morning,

I have been searching high and low for a breeder that I can buy a dog from next year but am having a hard time finding one that has everything I'm looking for.

 

So far this is the criteria I have listed:

 

-Anywhere in the United States or Canada.

-Breeds working dogs.

-Provides early neurological stimulation and socialization for puppies.

-Will allow me to be "involved" (stay in contact with me) with the litter from the day they are born onward. Will keep me updated on puppy personalities.

-Tests hips and eyes.

-Will not make me sign a spay/neuter contract. Gives buyers the option to breed their dogs later on if the dog is a good prospect. A breeding contract is okay but NO co-ownership.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

I would like the dog for trialing and use as a service dog, hence the need for ENS.

 

 

Hi Christina ~

 

The early neurological thing you emphasize so strongly ... is that a make-or-break for you? Because it may limit you severely, as I have yet to meet any working-dog breeders who follow a specific, scientific protocol with puppies.

 

Those I do know of generally do the usual basic things such as play with the pups, handle them regularly, have any neighbor kids or young relatives come and (gently) handle and play with them, teach them to come when called "puppy puppy," and make sure they have a safe yard to play in where they can romp and run and hear all the usual home/farm noises such as cars, people, lawnmowers and other things. By socializing them with whomever stops by, and making sure they hear all the ordinary sounds of daily life, a working pup is pretty well set to go on to his forever home.

 

But more than that ... I can't think of anyone who subscribes to a special protocol. That sounds like more of a show or performance breeder thing, from where I sit.

 

Per pre-purchase contact, I believes most working breeders would be willing to reply to you and/or provide pictures if you call or email and ask for updates. If they have a Facebook page or keep a blog, they're very apt to post regular rounds of photos showing the puppies' growth and development.

Is that the sort of regular contact you hope for?

 

I don't know that many breeders of working lines require a spay/neuter contract, so that should not be a major problem. Most breeders that I'm aware of just figure that you paid for the entire pup, ovaries or testicles and all.

 

I believe most reputable working breeders today also test hips and eyes, knowing both are concerns to buyers, so generally they will advertise as such or you can inquire and get a prompt reply.

 

I do know of one person in the Pacific Northwest who has a litter of pups just born, that were sired by Dewi Tweed, if you would be interested in talking to her. She has done hips/eyes, as well, and the bitch is a full-time working farm dog, as well as some trialing, works cattle, goats and sheep.

 

~ Gloria

 

 

 

[stockdogranch]

I was replying and it went away. Just as well. Picture me joining Julie in the head banging exercise,

A

[Flamincomet]

Christina, if you do find a working breeder who meets these criteria, would you mind PMing me here? I'm on the lookout for a breeder with exactly the same things to replace my current service dog when he is ready to retire. I've had a hard time finding any working breeders who do ENS, although I will look into Creekside now. Also if you don't mind would you PM me your reason for not wanting to go with a Riggs pup? My SD is a Riggs boy but I'm thinking about going with different lines for his replacement. Good luck in your search, wish I had a recommendation for you.

[Christina]

Oh good GRIEF people. I asked for an explanation, decided I didn't agree, and wanted to get back to the topic I was asking about. Stop trying to come to the conclusion that I am some horrible person out to ruin the Border Collie breed. This is exactly why I avoid coming to this board which is an utter shame because there is so much information that I could benefit from if it weren't all being thrown at me disguised with sheer hositility. I personally know MANY AKC breeders who do not breed Border Collies and NONE of them are like the breeders that were referenced by any of you. Somebody isn't jumping on your bandwagon. It'll be okay. The AKC is one of the few good organizations left that lobby for your right to own a purebred dog in the first place.

----

Gloria- ENS is not a dealbreaker but I would like to know that the puppies are being given an "above average" amount of early life experiences. Even playing with visiting children and walking on different textured surfaces is acceptable. The more socialization the better. The most important thing, to me, with ENS and socialization is that the breeder is going to get a better understanding of their dog's personalities and will then be able to match me with the puppy that I need for service dog work. I understand that I am asking a lot out of the breeder and I know I am going to have to search high and low to find somebody that fits all of my criteria. I'm reasonable about my expectations in finding everything on my list- I know it might not happen the way I want it to. But I am absolutely willing to talk to other breeders that don't completely fit my criteria to see if we can work something out.

I will hold off on getting information about the Dewi Tweed litter just because I'm not quite ready for the new puppy. I have a service dog candidiate coming in a few months that I will be training for somebody else and I want to get that dog situated before I get my dog. Thank you very much for the insight though! I agree, many working breeders do seem to health test and don't bother with breeding contracts though I have run into quite a few (usually the people who do ENS and socialization) that do. A contract is fine as long as I am comfortable meeting the terms and the breeder is willing to talk to me long enough to trust me on making a judgement call on whether I eventually want to breed the dog.

Flamincomet- I will PM you

[Gloria Atwater]

Well, the folks I know let their puppies run on grass, dirt, gravel, linoleum, concrete ... that seems plenty varied to me!

I'll wish you luck, though, because I believe that "ENS" criteria will be a severe limitation and will probably put you in the camp of AKC breeders. Sorry I can't help.
Regards,

Gloria

Gloria- ENS is not a dealbreaker but I would like to know that the puppies are being given an "above average" amount of early life experiences. Even playing with visiting children and walking on different textured surfaces is acceptable. The more socialization the better. The most important thing, to me, with ENS and socialization is that the breeder is going to get a better understanding of their dog's personalities and will then be able to match me with the puppy that I need for service dog work. I understand that I am asking a lot out of the breeder and I know I am going to have to search high and low to find somebody that fits all of my criteria. I'm reasonable about my expectations in finding everything on my list- I know it might not happen the way I want it to. But I am absolutely willing to talk to other breeders that don't completely fit my criteria to see if we can work something out.

[Flamincomet]

"Well, the folks I know let their puppies run on grass, dirt, gravel, linoleum, concrete ... that seems plenty varied to me!"

That may be great for a family pet or performance dog, but a service dog is entirely another issue.

[Christina]

"Well, the folks I know let their puppies run on grass, dirt, gravel, linoleum, concrete ... that seems plenty varied to me!"

 

That may be great for a family pet or performance dog, but a service dog is entirely another issue.

 

Precisely. Thank you.

 

I'm not going to drastically reduce my standards. The kind of breeder I'm looking for has to exist.

[Gloria Atwater]

"Well, the folks I know let their puppies run on grass, dirt, gravel, linoleum, concrete ... that seems plenty varied to me!"

 

That may be great for a family pet or performance dog, but a service dog is entirely another issue.

 

 

My apologies. I spoke of working-bred pups, not just pets or performance, but I didn't realize that a service dog's conditioning or training began before 8 weeks of age, or that before 8 weeks, those pups would require distinctly different handling than working puppies. I shall be quiet, now.

 

~ Gloria

[Christina]

No need to apologize Gloria. I wouldn't expect everyone to know how to raise a service dog candidate. But that is why I want to find the right breeder.

[Pippin's person]

Oh good GRIEF people. I asked for an explanation, decided I didn't agree, and wanted to get back to the topic I was asking about. Stop trying to come to the conclusion that I am some horrible person out to ruin the Border Collie breed. This is exactly why I avoid coming to this board which is an utter shame because there is so much information that I could benefit from if it weren't all being thrown at me disguised with sheer hositility. I personally know MANY AKC breeders who do not breed Border Collies and NONE of them are like the breeders that were referenced by any of you. Somebody isn't jumping on your bandwagon. It'll be okay. The AKC is one of the few good organizations left that lobby for your right to own a purebred dog in the first place.

 

 

Unfortunately, it's positions like yours as regards breeding practices that have pretty much driven so many of the working people from this board--the very people who might be able to help you with what you are looking for (at least one member who used to be here frequently but has pretty much left raised a litter of puppies, one of whom became a fairly recognizable service dog).

 

While of course I don't know why they have left, I do know that the majority of them share the position--which is both ontological and epistemological--that the AKC orientation of breeding border collies to a visual standard does damage over the long term specifically to the preservation of livestock working ability in border collies.

 

No one has implied that you are a horrible person. The fact that you profess to have no problem with the practice of breeding border collies to a standard other than a working standard is simply antithetical to the principles of this board, as you well know. And the information you find useful flows from those principles.

 

If what you want is a service dog, why not find a breeder breeding service dogs (e.g. breeding for function)? If the kind of socialization you want is more or less proxy for knowing the pups' personalities, you can probably trust that someone breeding a working litter will know their puppies' personalities as well as anyone can at 7-8 weeks. The reason most working litters are bred is because the person doing the breeding wants a puppy from either the sire or the dam, so they have a vested interest in knowing about personalities.

[mum24dog]

 

 

But more than that ... I can't think of anyone who subscribes to a special protocol. That sounds like more of a show or performance breeder thing, from where I sit.

 

 

~ Gloria

 

And overcomplicating the process as usual.

 

I don't know why people do it. Is it that making something that should be straightforward seem difficult makes them feel superior?

 

The older I get the more I realise that less can be more where dogs are concerned. How many dogs have been screwed up by the tick box approach to socialisation, for example?

 

I just hate the idea of compartmentalisation and labelling. Life's too short to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

[toney]

I don't think you should compromise on your standards at all. But I also think no working breeder should compromise their standards, either. Many working breeders have a standard- "No AKC registration." Or "No AKC registration without spaying or neutering."

[Christina]

Can somebody please point to the place where I said I'm fine with Border Collies being raised to a physical standard? I'll wait.

 

And no I am NOT going to get just any other breed of dog because no other breed would fit my lifestyle. Not a good compromise.

 

I have not once said that I would ask a breeder to compromise and let me register the dog with the AKC.

 

Now PLEASE stop jumping down my throat, misquoting me, and otherwise catering to the clique that is very evident in this group. I keep wanting to be a part of this lunacy because I can learn a lot but you folks make it exceedingly difficult by absolutely freaking out when anyone even tries to disagree with you.

[Pippin's person]

Posts #10, #15, #20 and #34 all state that you do not have a problem with the AKC registry. I suspect you understand how that position can be construed as support for the breeding philosophy of the AKC.

 

True, you haven't stated you want to register your dog with the AKC. You did state that you would need to think long and hard about a requirement that didn't allow you to breed your dog to a dual registered dog (Post #10), which suggests at least via implication that you would like to retain the option of doing exactly that. Perhaps that implication is mistaken or unintentional.

 

What would you like to learn from the boards?

 

One of the things I really loved learning about from these boards was perspectives on working dogs, border collies in particular. I benefitted a lot from what people who actually do that had to say. It was truly a gift; I am immensely grateful for it; and I'm very sad that it is mostly gone from the boards now.

[Christina]

Posts #10, #15, #20 and #34 all state that you do not have a problem with the AKC registry. I suspect you understand how that position can be construed as support for the breeding philosophy of the AKC.

 

True, you haven't stated you want to register your dog with the AKC. You did state that you would need to think long and hard about a requirement that didn't allow you to breed your dog to a dual registered dog (Post #10), which suggests at least via implication that you would like to retain the option of doing exactly that. Perhaps that implication is mistaken or unintentional.

 

What would you like to learn from the boards?

 

One of the things I really loved learning about from these boards was perspectives on working dogs, border collies in particular. I benefitted a lot from what people who actually do that had to say. It was truly a gift; I am immensely grateful for it; and I'm very sad that it is mostly gone from the boards now.

 

Amazing. So I haven't said it but you're still trying imply that I believe something even thought I did explicitly state that I don't have any need to register a dog with the AKC. I asked because I was curious. I would have to think long and hard because I believed it would limit the gene pool. If a good working dog was dual registered I personally would have no problem breeding to said working dog if it would benefit my stock in the long run.

 

My understanding of registration is this would not actually give the AKC any of the bloodline as all puppies would be ABCA registered but not automatically (is there an automatic registration...no...) be AKC registered because only one parent was registered with the AKC. So, again, why is this a problem? You aren't giving the AKC anything. You can already transfer ABCA registration to the AKC. But whatever. If the breeder had that stipulation I would follow it, as I said I would.

[Pippin's person]

 

Amazing. So I haven't said it but you're still trying imply that I believe something even thought I did explicitly state that I don't have any need to register a dog with the AKC. I asked because I was curious. I would have to think long and hard because I believed it would limit the gene pool. If a good working dog was dual registered I personally would have no problem breeding to said working dog if it would benefit my stock in the long run.

 

My understanding of registration is this would not actually give the AKC any of the bloodline as all puppies would be ABCA registered but not automatically (is there an automatic registration...no...) be AKC registered because only one parent was registered with the AKC. So, again, why is this a problem? You aren't giving the AKC anything. You can already transfer ABCA registration to the AKC. But whatever. If the breeder had that stipulation I would follow it, as I said I would.

 

Actually, no, I made no implication whatsoever that you plan to register your own dog with the AKC nor am I trying to imply that in any way. You made it completely clear that you don't plan to register your own dog with the AKC.

 

What I did take from your comments, including the one above, is that you don't have an issue with the *principles* behind the AKC, which is breeding dogs to a visual standard. You stated explicitly that you don't have a problem with the AKC registry or with breeding to dogs who are registered with the AKC. That's certainly your right, just as it's my right to state clearly why I do have a problem with it. This is how discussions work.

 

The issue is not registering. It's breeding.

 

You have asked twice why it is a problem to breed to a dual registered dog. Do you not understand the answers that have been provided or do you not agree with them?

 

I missed where you said you would follow a breeding stipulation by a breeder. Can you point that out to me so I can see my mistake?

[Christina]

Actually, no, I made no implication whatsoever that you plan to register your own dog with the AKC nor am I trying to imply that in any way. You made it completely clear that you don't plan to register your own dog with the AKC.

 

What I did take from your comments, including the one above, is that you don't have an issue with the *principles* behind the AKC, which is breeding dogs to a visual standard. You stated explicitly that you don't have a problem with the AKC registry or with breeding to dogs who are registered with the AKC. That's certainly your right, just as it's my right to state clearly why I do have a problem with it. This is how discussions work.

 

The issue is not registering. It's breeding.

 

You have asked twice why it is a problem to breed to a dual registered dog. Do you not understand the answers that have been provided or do you not agree with them?

 

I missed where you said you would follow a breeding stipulation by a breeder. Can you point that out to me so I can see my mistake?

 

I said I don't have a problem with the AKC as a whole. I never said I don't have a problem with breeding dogs to a physical standard. What I was implying is that there are many breeds that have not suffered the same fate as the Border Collie (and Bulldog, and GSD, etc) when they gained AKC recognition. People like to point to the obvious ones but skip over breeds that have maintained functionality and uniform physical structure.

 

There are just as many breeders who particpate both in conformation and in working trials for their breed as there are who focus only on conformation. What would you have the AKC do? Require a working certificate to champion a dog? What about breeds that are not bred to work? Placing the blame for the ruin of a breed on a registry is like placing the blame for dogs in shelters on dog breeders. You are not directing your resentment at the source of the problem- just one of the factors in the equation. As I said before, the AKC has about as much control over breeders as legislators do. It is nearly impossible to mandate that a breeder meet specific requirements without hurting another breeding program in the process. You either sacrifice part of what you hold dear or you let go of your view that all breeders needing to be as uniform as the conformation dogs you claim to hate. If once size doesn't fit all for the Border Collie, I can only imagine that one size doesn't fit all for breeders either.

 

And yes, I know exactly how you're going to respond to that. "But my issue with conformation dogs is that they aren't bred for work!"

 

SOME of them are not bred for work. The conformation BC community seems to struggle with this a little more than other breeds. But you cannot and should not only consider a single part of the whole. I have absolutely no reason to defend the AKC other than my interest in keeping dog breeding out of the hands of AR activists. And given that one of the heaviest lobbyers against the AR agenda IS the AKC I simply cannot choose to write them off. Roll your eyes, stomp your feet, scream about how we don't need the AKC to defend our rights to breed dogs but in the end when they strip you of your ability to choose from the wide variety of dog breeders we have today please consider the fact that I warned you that this was going to happen.

 

Picking and choosing what breeder you support and what breeder you don't support is divisive.

 

So to answer your question, I do support the principles behind the AKC. I support the AKC out of necessity. Will I go against a breeder's wishes and register with them? No. Will I be putting any of my dogs in the conformation ring? No. But, in my humble opinion, refusing to side with the only superpower left on your team is arrogant, ignorant, and damning to dog breeding.

 

Until you step into the ring with the rest of us (please see the US Dog Laws or Animal Legislation Awareness groups on Facebook) you have absolutely no idea what we are actually up against nor can you conceive of how close we have come to losing these rights.

[Christina]

 

I can't imagine that would be a problem but I would have to give it some serious thought.

 

I believe this answers your question about where I said I would honor the wishes of a breeder about registering with the AKC.

 

 

[Maralynn]

FWIW, Early Neurological Stimulation does have a scientific background although some studies suggest that well rounded exposure and stimulation in the first 8 weeks of life do the same thing

 

Developing High Achievers

 

Evaluating the effect of early neurological stimulation on the development and training of mine detection dogs

[G. Festerling]

Which breeds have not suffered from AKC? And I am singling out this statement only out of sheer curiosity!

 

Yes, why not require a good standard working achievement for high titles?

 

But here goes my example again with the German SV. DESPITE, mandatory health checks, pre titles and titles, the GSD has still been ruined to a large.extend by HUMANS that exploit a breed.

 

And by HUMANS that waiver on breeding solely to the original purpose. If you have never seen a true working dog work (not trial to any standard as even high standards are in my eyes still somewhat artificial) in it's original job, to earn a living (herding, hunting, guide dogs, drug dogs, security dogs) then you will never understand the passion. And by you, I refer to no one in particular. Yet it includes me as well.

 

And I believe that is at the bottom of the passion.