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Nipping kids... should I muzzle on walks?


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My dog is NOT aggressive at all, but she play-nips often-- never hard enough to injure, but enough to startle someone who doesn't expect it. We trained her out of this VERY quickly after adopting her, but she does sometimes try to nip when children she doesn't know pet her. It's always clearly playful behavior-- tail wagging, play-bowing, etc.-- but it's still really bad that she does this.

When I take her for walks and kids try to pet her, I always tell them "No, she sometimes bites when she's trying to say hello," but the kids will pet her anyway, and then they'll start screaming bloody murder when she very gently nips at them. I know she would never bite hard enough to actually injure someone, but she's scared a lot of kids and made a lot of parents mad at me.

I wish that parents and kids would listen when I say, "Don't pet her," but they do it anyway. I was successful in training her not to nip adults, but I don't know how to train her not to nip kids, especially since they tend to start screaming or running, which just confuses her, whereas an adult can just firmly but gently tell her, "No bite."

Should I muzzle her when I take her in public so she doesn't do this when kids pet her? I feel would bad if she has to wear a muzzle because other people ignore my warnings, but does that seem like the best solution?

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My dog is afraid of small kids so when we walk no kid is allowed near him. He has never tried to bite but I make sure he never feels he needs to. When I see kids walking towards us and I think they might ask to pet him, I cross the street before they get close. Avoid the situation all together. If I can't or don't have time to cross the road then I keep walking or even walk a bit faster. This way if they ask I can keep walking without slowing down and just quickly respond "no he isn't friendly". I even sometimes say he bites though neither is true. I also make sure my dog is at my side and on the opposite side of oncoming kids. Makes it much easier to just avoid the situation or say no.

If you can't do those things then you may want to muzzle or walk when kids are not around like the late evening near dark or early morning or during school hours if you don't work those hours.

I personally hate being talked to while on walks by adults or kids so I just avoid the situation as much as possible. My SIL wears head phones and pretends she doesn't hear people when she walks her dog. ;)

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Okay, thanks. I guess I just need to start by being more firm when kids ask to pet her. I hate making it seem like I've got a "mean" dog, but "She isn't friendly" might work better than, "She sometimes bites when she's saying hello." Maybe I'll muzzle when we're in a very crowded area with lots of kids, but for normal walks I'll just avoid the kids entirely.

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We had a similar issue with Murray knocking over kids/elderly women/the mail man on walks. My obedience instructor gave me some sound advice: She said it's OK to be "rude" to people who don't listen when you say "please don't pet my dog" and just keep walking or jog to get out of Dodge. It's more likely that the kid/parent/old lady/mail carrier will be rude to you after your dog causes them a scrape/nip/broken hip/federal mail offence.

 

She also had me practice talking to Murray (to keep him at heel and focused on me) on our walks. If food is a better trigger for your dog, I had great luck smearing some peanut butter on a wooden spoon for him to lick while walking. It's quicker to treat for focus and good behavior when you don't need to dig in a bait bag or bend over to get said treat to their mouth.

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People tend to be really sensitive about their kids and freak out if another adult tells them a firm "No." There was one time that a boy tried to pet Maggie after I'd told him not to, and she was play-bowing like she always does when she's going to nip a child or dog. Since he didn't listen to the first "No," I had yelled, "NO! Don't TOUCH her!" very loudly. I was looking out for the kid's safety, not trying to be a jerk, but his mom was really angry with me about it. I'd still prefer to tick off an ill-behaved kid and his mom than end up in court because she bit someone.

 

The spoon is a really, really good idea. Maggie's crazy about peanut butter, so I'll give that a shot today!

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Unfortunately, I think a lot of parents and kids nowadays feel entitled to pet dogs whenever and however they want. They are pet-stupid.

 

I agree that the best way to deal - in the short-term - is to NOT allow Maggie in these situations - using whatever methods seem appropriate. You received some good suggestions above.

 

IMHO, I don't really care if the parent or kid becomes ticked off. You may never see them again whereas you will be living for a long time with your dog - and her good or bad behaviors. Don't let her practice bad behavior - hence keep her away from kids.

 

I do recommend practicing greeting behavior with some kids you know and who will listen to instructions from you. Use a lot of positive reinforcements - have the kid(s) throw treats at Maggie from a distance and gradually get closer is one possible strategy. One thing I did with my dog (who never nipped at a kid, but was definitely uncomfortable around small children as he would try and hide behind my legs when they approached. At that time, I would NOT let the child touch him.) was to try and connect with a calm child who was happy just giving treats and didn't need to hug or otherwise touch my dog. For my dog, when the time was right, I was able to kneel down and treat him (and thus control his head) while the child was petting him GENTLY. I didn't push him and just let the exposures happen spontaneously, but I did make sure to manage. Today, he is fine with kids wanting to pet him. His default behavior is to roll over on his belly. I still make sure to be close by and do not allow any rough petting.

 

Jovi

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I am pretty lucky that kids by me almost always ask before trying to pet my dogs and parents generally are pretty cautious about strange dogs. Quinn adores children. I just need to watch him that he doesn’t knock them over in his enthusiam. Meanwhile, my Lhasa really dislikes kids but they are drawn to his teddy bear looks and often plead to be able to pet him. I always say he is “scared of kids. Isn’t that silly?” (which would totally outrage the Lhasa if he understood what I was accusing him of :lol: ). If Quinn is with us, I let them pet him as a consolation prize. Otherwise, I smile and keep moving. As Waffles said, I never want my dog in a situation where he feels he needs to nip or bite.

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I know she would never bite hard enough to actually injure someone

 

NO, you DO NOT know this! Sorry to shout, but no one ever knows 100% that their dog will never bite. Any dog is capable of biting and we don't always know what will trigger it. (Hmm, don't you remember the recent thread where we talked about predatory drift?) And kids often do things that trigger dogs to bite, so no dog should ever be 100% trusted around children, especially ones they don't know.

 

I think if I'd been in your situation w/ people allowing to pet the dog they'd just been told bites when she says hello, I'd probably have turned to the parents and said something like, "Who's fault was this? The child was told no."

 

Actually, it wouldn't have happened if it were my dog. If I knew my dog nipped children, even playfully, and I knew that children (and their parents) tend to react loudly and negatively to such nipping, I simply wouldn't allow them to greet my dog. You know how they're going to react, so it's your responsibility to avert the interaction in the first place.

 

Sure, a muzzle might prevent the nip, but you're also going to have everyone thinking you have a vicious dog. Is that what you want?

 

When a child or a parent asks if the child can pet your dog, JUST SAY NO! Be firm and immediately step in between your dog and the child to prevent the contact from happening. If you want to give an explanation, fine, but after you've intervened to make sure the child doesn't make contact.

 

In the meantime, it might be a good idea to contact a good positive trainer who might be able to help you teach Maggie not to play nip at children as part of her greeting behavior with them. That would be a win-win situation all around.

 

Good luck.

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You're the dog owner and responsible for the situation. If the kids won't listen, it's your responsibility to protect your dog (and them). If their parents are huffy, oh well, it was either that or their child getting nipped. If they walk up, you can physically stand between them and your dog, directing my dog to the other side. If you don't stop walking, it's hard to pet. So what if they get their feelings hurt? The last thing you need is for her to accidentally hurt someone and have a bite record.

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People tend to be really sensitive about their kids and freak out if another adult tells them a firm "No." There was one time that a boy tried to pet Maggie after I'd told him not to, and she was play-bowing like she always does when she's going to nip a child or dog. Since he didn't listen to the first "No," I had yelled, "NO! Don't TOUCH her!" very loudly. I was looking out for the kid's safety, not trying to be a jerk, but his mom was really angry with me about it. I'd still prefer to tick off an ill-behaved kid and his mom than end up in court because she bit someone.

 

Exactly! You already know people don't listen, so it's up to you to be proactive, even if it makes you feel like a meanie. Even if no one ever really gets hurt, sooner or later you'll likely run into a parent who wants to make trouble.

 

Peanut ptter on a spoon is great, but messy when you're walking. There are GoToobs that you can fill w/ watered down peanut butter, liverwurst, or yogurt (you can find them on Amazon -- Clean Run sells a similar type refillable tube), spray cheese (in the supermarket), baby food in pouches w/ recloseable screw on tops (happysqueeze is one brand), all things you can stash neatly in a pocket or fanny pack and bring out to distract Maggie when you see kids in the area.

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I agree with Jovi's advice. Instead of a muzzle you may want to consider a gentle leader while working on this behavior. It gives you greater control of the head and muzzle. A lot of dogs hate them though so if you do try this I'd be really slow and easy introducing it.

 

Kids and adults are very entitled to petting strange dogs, it's pretty ridiculous. I have to deal with this a lot when I'm out with Link in gear. The other day a little girl charged us twice trying to basically tackle Link in the produce section. By the third time I had to step in between her and Link with my hand out like a stop sign, repeatedly saying, "NO PET, HE'S WORKING." She was non English speaking and her mom seemed to think the entire situation was funny, but I was finally able to get her to go away. I wouldn't worry about Link nipping or anything, but he needs to feel safe and able to focus to do his job. Another time I was at physical therapy and one of the employees went right up to him as he was on a down stay on his mat and started petting and cooing at him. When I reinforced him for staying she asked, "Oh, am I getting him in trouble?" And I said, "Yes actually, he's trying to work and you're distracting him." She responded, "You can't put a dog in front of me and expect me not to pet him!" Really? Aren't you an adult? He even has big patches on both sides of his vest that say "No touch, No talk, No eye contact," but people will still ignore them. You might consider getting your dog a vest though with No Petting patches, some people do respect them. The Yellow Dog Project is also gaining popularity: http://www.theyellowdogproject.com/The_Yellow_Dog_Project/Home.html

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I agree with those who have said, "Just say no!" It's not as much fun having a dog that can't play with random strangers, but it's better than having a dog put to sleep because a stupid kid and litigious parent put you in a bad situation.

 

My dog likes calm toddlers. I've had great success asking kids to give him a treat instead of patting him. They love to feed the dog, and they almost never want to pat him afterwards.

 

My neighbor's little toddler loves Buddy. One night he was out in the yard "helping" his dad. He had three large wrenches in his hands, saw Buddy and ran at us. Sensing potential disaster (when the wrenches all hit Buddy in the head!), I put my hand out to catch the child at his chest. Alas, he held tight to the wrenches, and their inertia was enough to carry him forward. He landed on his chin, and scraped both his knees, and screamed bloody murder.

 

I'd still put my hand out to stop him - at least this way, it wasn't Buddy's fault the kid ended up wounded. Oy.

 

Mary

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Exactly! You already know people don't listen, so it's up to you to be proactive, even if it makes you feel like a meanie.

 

And remember, setting limits is not being mean. Just be firm and authoritative. Unless a kid is flying at me, I am smiling when I tell them no. Besides I doubt people are thinking that much if at all about the lost opportunity to pet a dog after you move along. Just be very clear and pleasant and don't pause to chit chat. Everyone will be fine.

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NO, you DO NOT know this! Sorry to shout, but no one ever knows 100% that their dog will never bite. Any dog is capable of biting and we don't always know what will trigger it. (Hmm, don't you remember the recent thread where we talked about predatory drift?) And kids often do things that trigger dogs to bite, so no dog should ever be 100% trusted around children, especially ones they don't know.

 

You're right-- absolutely right. It was an exaggeration to say I know she wouldn't injure someone. What I should have said is that I don't think she is an aggressive dog; I think she's a nippy herding dog who doesn't understand children, and I think she's *unlikely* to be aggressive.

 

A lot of good tips here... Thank you guys. I need to just buck up and refuse to let kids around Maggie until I've trained her to stop the nipping. My vet said that trying to train a border collie not to nip kids is like trying to train a dog not to bark-- it's impossible and would just frustrate the owner. But if you guys have border collies who don't nip kids, my vet's a little off the mark on that one so it's worth it to start introducing her to kids carefully.

 

Thanks for the help.

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My vet said that trying to train a border collie not to nip kids is like trying to train a dog not to bark-- it's impossible and would just frustrate the owner.

 

There are sooo many things wrong w/ this!

 

Most vets aren't trainers, and aren't behaviorists. I learned a long time ago not to look to vets for training advice. They're doctors, medical people, not trainers. (Of course there will be a few exceptions w/ vets who enjoy training dogs, but until you know this for a fact about a particular vet, it's not the best place to seek training advice.)

 

And that was such a blanket statement as to be ludicrous in the first place. I've had a lot of Bcs and none of them nipped kids, even when they were running around screaming. That's not to say that many of them don't do that; it's often an unfortunate byproduct of herding instincts. But to say that all of them do it is just plain stoopid.

 

And it doesn't sound to me like what Maggie's doing is typical herding-type nipping either, which I would expect to be more a heel-nipping kind of thing. There's no chasing involved in what's happeneng with her.

 

If you can solicit a somewhat older, dog savvy kid (with agreeable parents) who isn't going to freak out, you might be able to work on this alone, but I'd still highly recommend consulting a trainer for help. In the meantine, don't let her succeed (i.e. practice) doing this w/ any more kids.

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I have a dog (GSD) who does not care for strangers. While I got to know her, I found out quickly that away from home she was a lot nicer and she totally did not even consider kids. Totally cool with them. Adults, in the house, around my truck or any fishy situation with me, she is very quick to follow her gut feelings.

So I have strict rules for children to pet her, just because I can. They have to approach with a parent present, slow and allow me to introduce my dog to them plus often I hand them a treat. If they don't or they have an ignorant parent, I took to bringing a piece of paper with me with some scribbles on it. This was waved in the patents face with the request to please sign before the child would accost my dog....liability waver kind of. Only ever had to try that once. But then again, I am usually blunt and unapologetic anyway and I have found most kids quite happy for the chance and the guidance to pet the big dog.

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nova also nips children when she passes them or they try to leave her. I just don't let her near them. if I see kids ahead of our route, I change the route or move waaaayyy off the path of the kids. my daughter gives me the stink eye- "mom, you have such weird dogs", but I know their behaviors and i'm willing to work with them. luckily I've never had an "entitled" parent or child demanding my dog be petible.

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My vet said that trying to train a border collie not to nip kids is like trying to train a dog not to bark-- it's impossible and would just frustrate the owner.

LOL!! When I read this, my first thought was "He's probably right. It would be impossible for him."

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The sad thing is while many children (and adults) feel "entitled" to pet your dog no matter what you say, it is the very same people who will feel "entitled" to sue you and demand your dog be euthanized should the little darling get nipped, pinched, bitten, or just scared.

 

Be your dog's advocate - "no" means NO. As someone suggested, move across the street or take other evasive action if you have to. Put your dog behind you and put yourself between the dog and any unwanted contact. Walk your dog somewhere else, at another time when children (or pesky adults) are about, and always be alert for approaching problem people of all sizes.

 

Can't train Border Collies to not nip? Tell that to a host of people who have trained thousands - and, let's face it, there are a lot of those very same dogs that would never consider nipping at a person because they have been raised right and trained before it ever became an issue.

 

Good luck with this!

 

PS - Other than a muzzle sending the message that you have "vicious" dog (like a "Beware of Dog" sign, it can backfire on you if the dog hurts someone - something along the order of you already knowing you had a dangerous animal), a muzzle can also cause anxiety in the dog because the dog feels like it has lost its ability to defend itself. I'd try to avoid that if at all possible. Not that you can't do it if you have *no other choice*.

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As Sue says be your dogs advocate, my current dog is scared of children and I always say no to a casual pet on the street he would not hurt them but it makes him uncomfortable. In other environments where kids can play ball I will let them play fetch and within a short period of time they could maul him and he is happy but they have been allowed to become his friends.

My first border collie would nip children if they got to close, he was fine with an ear scratch but a hug was out of the question, I told every child that approached not to to touch him but a couple of times little boys made a grab and each time he made a very controled air snap that scared the hell out of the kids, we were lucky in that each case the parents told the kids off for not listening.

Don't worry about being mean, better than your dog having to wear a muzzle.

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"I'm sorry, she's in training right now and you cannot pet her"

 

Simple, to the point and you won't give the impression that she's just waiting for a chance to bite a child.

 

 

As far as not being able to train Border Collies not to nip kids goes, that vet is out to lunch. I had 2 Border Collies and 3 kids aged 5 and under happily playing together in the yard this afternoon without any nipping or herding of children.

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Josie swimming at a designated pet beach, in the water. I'm on shore with a leash in my pocket. Family with 5-8 year olds approaching toward a nearby dock. Little one breaks away from her family and comes trotting toward us just as Josie emerges from the water.

 

"Can I pet your dog?", she asks still approaching rapidly. Hey, she asked, and I was impressed with that.

 

Seeing there is no time for chit-chat, I say, "No," rather firmly and with good volume. Little one continues toward us, and I swing myself between her and Josie, reaching for my leash to clip it on. I look behind, and she is standing only a few away, with sad look on her face.

 

"What's the matter," she says.

 

"I said no, you can't pet her, she is afraid of strangers."

 

Dad walks over, not very hurriedly, to retrieve the nice little girl. I advise that my dog does not do well with strangers, and ask him to explain, since she didn't seem to understand my attempt.

 

Little girl perplexed at not being allowed to pet; me irked she kept approaching after I told her she couldn't pet my dog; dad apparently OK about things, and may or may not explain to her in words she can understand; Josie happy, likely unaware of the issue.

 

We continued to play in the water, and had a nice walk back to the car.

 

I'd stay away from areas where you cannot easily protect your dog from kids, always stay on leash, always remain on high alert, until you can obtain desensitization training -- Best wishes, TEC

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