He runs away

[blackacre]

You think running a dog down is "very old school" so you're going to use a SHOCK COLLAR instead ?!?!?

A.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by SAR K9 Lucy:

Michael,

If you're not getting a reliable recall, I'm not sure you're going to get a reliable down in motion. The reason is that when he's chasing critters, he's locked into prey drive and nothing else is more interesting/rewarding to him than the chase.

Can you remind me again how amny border collies you have?

 

Another option is ecollar training.

I disagree that shocking a dog is either training OR a humane method of ... anything. If you need to shock your border collie to make him do something, you aren't smart enough to have a border collie.

 

RDM

[Lucy Goosey]

Originally posted by blackacre:

You think running a dog down is "very old school" so you're going to use a SHOCK COLLAR instead ?!?!?

A.

I had never heard of running a dog down as a way of teaching the recall, so I wondered if it was an old school sheepdog training method. The reason I won't do it has nothing to do with whether it is old school or not; some of the best information is old school. The reason I won't do it is that running at my dog shouting at her will most likely put her in a state of conflict that I do not wish to put her in.

 

Originally posted by RDM:

Can you remind me again how amny border collies you have?

RDM, I'm simply wondering if a dog is in full blown prey drive, if they're not responding to a recall, whether they will respond to any command, let alone a down in motion.

 

I disagree that shocking a dog is either training OR a humane method of ... anything. If you need to shock your border collie to make him do something, you aren't smart enough to have a border collie.

I used to think that way too, until I saw for myself how an ecollar can be used in a humane fashion. Like any training tool, it can be abused, I won't argue with that. I think most people tend to think of using an ecollar as a punisher, inflicting pain and fear upon a dog who disobeys. That is light years away from what I am talking about.

[blackacre]

Originally posted by SAR K9 Lucy: The reason I won't do it is that running at my dog shouting at her will most likely put her in a state of conflict that I do not wish to put her in.

[/QB]

And you think shocking her is going to clear matters up?

 

A.

[Lucy Goosey]

Again, most people who have never seen one used properly tend to think of shocking the crap out of a dog as punishment. That is not what I'm talking about, and that is abuse. When used properly, if anything, it feels like a pulsating sensation, nothing more (yes, I have tried one on myself), and it's not applied as a punisher.

 

For the record, I don't use one on my dog. I don't even own one. She finds her work more rewarding than crittering, so I don't have the problem that Michael has. I think Michael has received some good advice that he should try, but if all else fails, the ecollar could save his dog's life, and it is Michael's decision if he wants to use one. I'm not pushing the ecollar at all, just saying it's an option that's out there.

[blackacre]

Well, Lucy or Lucy's Mom or whatever,

With all due respect, I think you don't know what you're talking about. God forbid anyone on this board should think otherwise.

Anyone who thinks they need to use a shock collar on a border collie better rethink their choice of breed.

A.

[Lucy Goosey]

Originally posted by blackacre:

Well, Lucy or Lucy's Mom or whatever,

With all due respect, I think you don't know what you're talking about. God forbid anyone on this board should think otherwise.

Anyone who thinks they need to use a shock collar on a border collie better rethink their choice of breed.

A.

You're entitled to your opinion. As I said, I don't use an ecollar on my dog (not that it matters, but all of my dogs are clicker trained), and I wouldn't recommend it as a first step in Michael's case either. However, when it comes to a serious, life threatening behavior where all other methods have failed, an ecollar could save the dog's life, and I don't think anyone should rule it out based upon ignorance. Find out how it can be used humanely, do the research, then make an educated decision.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

The dog is called and doesn't come. Running at him puts pressure on him which he is smart enough to associate with what he did -- not coming when called. He may dash a few steps away from you as a result, but so what? The point is that he is impressed with your displeasure. Immediately upon seeing this reaction, you walk away calling him nicely. He is relieved and happy to come, whereupon he finds how much nicer it feels to come when he's called than not to come when he's called.

 

I hope that's clear. Andrea's right that it's simple, quick and effective. I also like it because it's a very direct, interactive form of communication. You can adapt it to whatever your dog does when you call him -- for example, if he starts to come and then veers away -- as long as you watch him closely and react quickly (both of which are good things for a dog trainer to be doing).

[CMalazdrewich]

Lucy:

 

You indicated repeatedly that you thought running a dog down was a strange, and probably ineffective, way to "teach a dog to come to you". I thought I would take a moment to underscore the obvious - that this is not a method used to TEACH the meaning of the word "come" (or "that'll do, or whatever), but rather a physical and verbal correction that is implemented when the dog refuses to obey the command it already understands. Its purpose, like any other correction, is to show the dog that its response to the command is not optional. This type of correction is very effective with border collies, who are highly responsive to that kind of pressure. I can't comment on its effectiveness with other breeds, as I've only trained one non-border collie.

 

I'm not sure why you regard this as such alien, or "old school", training territory. As you said earlier:

 

"The reason he won't come to you even if you offer him food or a ball is that those things are not nearly as interesting as chasing critters. You can try using aversives that are stronger than his desire to chase; some of these can be very effective."

 

Well, this is one of those aversives, and it is indeed very effective.

 

Cheers,

Christie.

[Lucy Goosey]

Eileeen,

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

 

Christie,

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. My only concern with the efficacy of this technique, at this point (since I felt I understood it after Mr. Snappy explained it), is that while it may work in an enclosed tennis court, I'm wondering if it will work on a dog who is in full prey/chase drive, especially if the chasing has been reinforced through repetition (which will continue to happen until Michael addresses the fence jumping). This is not a young pup, and this is not a one time only thing. This dog has been doing this for a long time now, and finds the chase so rewarding, that his owner's displeasure may not be that important to him in the heat of the chase.

 

Maybe another way of explaining is that I do understand the theory behind this method, and can see how it could be effective when used at an early stage, and with enough consistency, but I'm not so sure that it could be effective as a cure for game chasing. I freely admit that I could be wrong (it's been known to happen ).

 

If Michael tries this, I would be very interested in hearing an update later down the road.

 

P.S. It seems that I have upset people by using the term "old school". I explained several times that I don't consider this to be a bad thing. :confused:

[Michael Ohleger]

Wow! Did I start something here? I think I need to clarify my situation. Skye doesn't have a problem with recalls as long as his attention is focused on the task at hand, namely working with me. If we are in a farm field or at home and he spots whatever-it-is-that-he-wants-to-chase, there is no getting him back. We're in the midst of formal obedience training with a group (this is more for my benefit) and he will do a fine sit/stay and recall from that. He will recall while in the confined space as well as at home in the yard and in the farm field. There is nothing in his repertoire as a down/stay (he hasn't grasped the concept) or a recall from a "prey chase" as someone put it. I'm getting the idea that more intense work is needed to reinforce his need for me, and to obey when commanded. 90 days is a short time to expect strict obedience to a recall particularly when dealing with a former road dog, I suppose. It has taken some work and understanding, since he sometimes forgets where he is (got excited over my brother's BC and marked the couch), and will still forage (stole a half dozen hershey's kisses and got wacky on caffiene). He stays off the furniture, chews only his things, sleeps at the foot of the bed and minds his manners around house guests, which is super. It's just this annoying behavior that has me baffled. He did it again since I opened this thread and I found him a mile away, happily jaunting down the road. He wouldn't come at that stage, but did when I turned my back on him walking to the car. I intend to take much of this sterling advice and continue to work with him with greater intensity. I'm also thinking about rescuing another one. Am I crazy?

 

Michael

[Lucy Goosey]

No, I don't think you started anything, crazy guy! I think I did, LOL! Glad you checked back in. Please keep us updated! :cool:

[Kyrasmom]

Going to veer into the world of possibilities here, but is this technique at all in tune with the ever popular "Horse Whisperer" technique that Monty Robert's travels around the world to exhibit?

 

In very short, his philosophy is that as horses are "pack (herd) animals" their main fear is that of being excluded from the pack which in nature could/would mean death. He applies pressure by urging a horse forward until he sees signs of submission and relaxation, and then turns away. If the horse follows it is rewarded, if it doesn't he exerts pressure and sends it forward again.

 

He explained that he saw that this was how a mare would correct a colt getting into mischief. She would rush at him and send him from the herd and wouldn't accept him back in until he submitted. The only real punishment was isolation.

 

I've tried the technique on my own horses and found it very effective, and really diminished the need for "traiing devices".

 

Anyway..just thought in concept that it sounded familiar.

 

Maria

[narcodog]

I would suggest alot of quality time bonding with your dog. The closer the dog feels to you the more willing he will be to respond. It took me months of sitting around petting Fiona and talking to her while watching TV and taking her everywhere I could. She wasn't abused or anything but she was very dog oriented when I got her. She just needed socialization and bonding with me. Almost everything scared her also and she would run away. By being confident and slowly exposing her to different enviroments she overcame her fears.

Fiona now will go anywhere I tell her. She routinely searches hot, loud, confined spaces because she believes in me and my commands.

A tennis ball or treats may not be what trips his switch either. Try finding one toy he really loves and reward him with that every time he returns. Be enthusiastic when he comes back also, eat him up with praise! The happier you act when he does the right thing the more often he will do it.

There are other techniques but try the tried and true methods of positive reinforcement first.

Just give it time and be patient.

Almost forgot. Try a kong or canvas bag tied to a long piece of chord. You can drag it along the ground, swing it around or whatever. It stimulates his prey drive but you are controlling the toy. He will begin to associate you with something really fun and want more. I have seen this used in training detection dogs with good success.

[Lucy Goosey]

Narcodog,

When I first adopted Lucy, she was like that too, and she had lived with a family, in their home. I just don't think they put a whole lot of time into her, which is why they gave her to the shelter.

Anyway, I did the same as you, just taking her everywhere, even if she wasn't going to be getting out of the car at all. The first few weeks, I wondered if I had made a huge mistake choosing this particular dog for SAR work. She was afraid of the wierdest things; drinking fountains, sculptures, the light cover on the ceiling, etc. She wasn't even very interested in play.

But now she goes nutso for her Kong on a rope (her favorite game is chase and tug), and is much more confident in new environments, though she still spooks at unfamiliar sudden loud noises. Lately I've been playing helicopter sounds while training her, to get her used to the sound of a helicopter up close and personal before she is really exposed to one next weekend (been using the sounds of Blackhawks, Hueys, Rangers, Sikorskys, etc.). She's doing fantastic in her SAR training, and I know now I picked a good dog. She just needed time to adjust and to bond with me.

[rafters]

Hi everyone-I have some ideas to share about Skye's propensity to ignore the come command etc. First I wouldn't allow him to be loose, if there is even a remote possibility for him to take off, don't let him loose. The more he run's the more he'll want to. It's a more rewarding to him than coming. Try to set him up to be right, a long line when loose in yard so you can catch him if he's taking off, also a way to reinforce the command to come. I would think about choosing another word for his recall since he's learned the command you've been giving him can be ignored.

Probably the best investment I've made is my Invisible fence, it gives me peace of mind and I know my dog's are safe. It may be worth looking into. Just my 2 cents worth.

Shellie

[sea4th]

I apologize if this is a repeat of what anyone else may have replied. I just began to read this post today. I've done rescue and have trained dogs for a long time---not to the elite levels of open level stock dogs, SAR dogs, etc., just basic obedience, enough to make a lot of the dogs that passed through my life upstanding K9 citizens, able to make tranfers to other homes and share mine without a lot of issues & baggage. I'm not blowing my own horn. God knows, I've still got a lot to learn, but I've still got enough experience under my belt to offer a suggestion or two.

 

In my experience, it's pointless to run after a dog if he's taken off, unless it's in an enclosed area. When that happens, I calmly walk after the the dog, not run, and when I am able to get it, take him by the collar and I growl a huge "SHAME ON YOU!!! WHAT THE H--L DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING?" Snap on a leash and call it to me. If the dog's not spasing out and I've got it's attention to actually come, then I'll praise it, but never when it's bucking like a bronco, on a leash, wanting to get away. Fortunately, these types have been in the minority. Most will come, even if reluctantly, and then I make coming to me the greatest thing in the world. When the dog decides it's going to take off, but stops and looks like it's reconsidering, I praise the hell out of him. Just the fact that you see he's reconsidering, is a step in the right direction. The recall, coming back to the human, should be the greatest, the most important thing to the dog in the world. You may want to kill the little shit when he's running away, but once that dog begins to rethink what he's doing, force yourself to be all honey and sweetness, and make it look like there is no other place in the world that is better for him than with you. Granted, some dogs, especially those that have been fending for themselves, don't see a need for that bond. Those are tougher, and take time to see that a human is an integral part of their existance. Some dogs will never be reliable.

 

Once, a long time ago, at an obedience trial, I saw a woman with a Siberian husky, in the novice ring. Sibes are notorious runners. This is what they were bred for. On the recall, the dog bolted out of the ring and took off happily, in a wild romp on the grounds. She never ran after the dogs. She called him. He ignored her, but obviously heard her, and continued to run, happily evading her. She never ran after him, shouting like a maniac. Instead, she called his name, he peeked at her, and she lay down on the ground. He immediately ran over to her, "Are you OK, MOM? Here I am". She took him by the collar and praised him.

 

Based on this, I also have one of my own experiences to relate. I have 2 LGD's who are not known for their recalls. They've been bred to work independent of man, and really feel there is no need for one. One cold Sunday morning in March a few years ago, I had one of my LGD's and border collies out. Lena, the guard dog, manipulated the gate and let the both of them out, and down the street they went. I live on a busy road. Fortunately, Sunday a.m.'s, it's quiet. The border collie stopped at the corner. I'm sure it was that built in guilt factor that they have that made Dolly, the border collie rethink what she was doing. Lena, on the other hand, was zigzagging across the street, completely ignoring me, in fact, it was a big game to her. She had a huge grin on her face and would pretend she was running to me, and zip right past me. Well she zipped down a side street and I lost sight of her. I quick ran Dolly home and ran back to the side street and it was at this point I decided to play to the LGD mentality, protecting their charges. I sat down in the middle of the side street (visualize a middle aged woman in slippers, sitting in the middle of the street). I couldn't see Lena, but I did call out "Lena, help me". Sure enough, that head popped out a block away from behing some bushes to see what was going one. The minute she saw me, she came barreling over and lay down on my lap. I wanted to kill her so bad, but through clenched teeth, I told her what a darned good girl she was.

 

I've subsequently used this method when the need arose. It works best with dogs that have established a bond with you----and I don't give a hang what it looks like. It's gotten dogs back for me.

 

That's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

 

Vicki

[Lucy Goosey]

Another tip for making yourself more valuable to your dog: Hand feed at least one meal per day, making the dog follow a command for each bite. The commands can be simple sits, downs, and recalls at close range, or even just giving you eye contact when you say their name. Anything where they are doing something to earn the food is fine.

[Michael Ohleger]

Thanks to all for the advice. I have to weed out the good and see what applies to Skye. He bolted again this afternoon - just after a good grooming and a bath (it figures). I didn't have a chance to call him since he slipped out the garage and disappeared into the woods in the twinkle of an eye. I didn't even see what direction he was in. Anyway after two hours of searching, he was found at a neighbors house just about a half mile away. He acted like nothing was amiss.

I have to agree that he will never be allowed to be out off lead. He will forever be attached to a long line (since it's easier to catch a 50 foot rope than a two foot dog) An invisible fence may just be the answer. I'll let y'all know after awhile. Thanks again.

 

Michael

[DonH105]

There has been a lot of water under the bridge, but I guess I will give you my two cents.

 

First I found the interaction between SAR K9 Lucy and blackacre really useful. My first reaction was like SAR K9 Lucy's. However, after the interaction with some help from Eileen and RDM, I agree with blackacre. The difficulty is getting the timing right so Skye clearly gets the message.

 

I have a 3 year old BC/kelpie mix, Gypsy. She has a very reliable recall and I can generally rely on her not straying too far from where ever I am. I go for long runs (5 to 10 miles) in the forest off leash with no concern about her straying. However, this was not always the case.

 

When I first got her, at 10 weeks, I lived in an apartment. We went on long daily walks, but she was almost always on a leash. When she got off the leash, usually by accident, she was hell bent for leather for the next county. It is difficult to let a dog know their behaviour is unacceptable when you can not catch them. I had several occasions to use the tag on her collar with my phone # on it. Fortunately, I never had to use the microchip. I chased her for miles on foot and drove around the neighborhood for hours looking for her on several occasions.

 

After she was one year old, we moved to a house with a school yard/park next door. One day she disappeared, and about an hour later I got a call from a lady with a cell phone at a soft ball game at the park. Gypsy was running around the infield doing her best to disrupt the game. Rather embarrassed, I called her from the other side of the field and she came right to me.

 

I then started taking her to the park and letting her off leash frequently. It was not long before she completely stopped running away. In my opinion, she learned that she could get off leash without running away. I think it was also a maturity thing.

 

My points are several. First, do not give up. Just becasue Skye runs away now does not mean he always will. Also, for Gypsy it was more than bonding with me and letting her know that running away is unacceptable. These were important, but I think she had to learn that she did not have to run away to be able to run free. I would suggest trying to find controlled situations where you can safely let Skye run loose and then practice a recall. He needs to learn that coming to you does not mean his fun is over.

 

Finally, although fences are important, I do not think they are the answer, in my opinion. Use the same brain, which can probably defeat most fences, to learn that running away is not a good solution. In this I agree with blackacre, Eileen and rdm.

 

Don

[Lucy Goosey]

I'm glad you found the discussion useful. That's what discussion forums are for!

 

Just a note on the fence, yes, a good fence is only a part of the whole picture. There is much more involved. However, stopping the cycle by modifying the fence to hold the dog is a very important first step, and should not be discounted.

[kaos]

HIya don

Your post is really interesting to me on many levels, I have a hound X that loves to bolt, she has gotten (ugh horrible grammar I know) much better with age but now when she takes off it is generally with an eye to hunt (she is a sight hound cross and amazing at vermin control. We are slowly making some progress with her but I too know the frustration.

 

Secondly, I have a BC mix that we were told was a bc/lab cross, although her herding trainer swears she has a whole lot of klpie in her and after researching pictures, I have to agree... do you have any pictures of your Gypsy? I would love to see how the mix showed up in yours

thanks

sara

[DonH105]

Hi Sara,

 

Unfortunately, I do not have any pictures that are digital. I guess I need to get to work on it. Gypsy is 3/4 BC and 1/4 Kelpie. She is a medium-sized, black body, tricolor with prick ears and long hair. I think her coloration is kelpie, but her hair length is long.

 

She has a very strong prey drive. Birds and squirrels are two words I can not say around her. There is nothing like seeing her going full out across a field trying to catch a swallow as it skims along the ground in front of her.

 

Although Gypsy does not look like any of the dogs on the web site, here is the web site of the breeder from which I got her.

 

http://www.herdeverything.org/HighlandKenn3.html

 

Don

[lagasan]

I hope you folks don't mind me bumping this old message up to the top!

 

I've read the thread with much interest. My BC Petey is my challenge. We've had him a year and he is 2 years old. We got him from a rescue. This week I realized that the click and treat training method I've been using for a year has to go. It just doesn't turn Petey on anymore. I've found the 99 cent squeaky ball is the trick. We only use it for training.

 

But the reason I am renewing this post: Petey, our darling, lovable pup, runs away. We have an invisible fence which works 95% of the time. We are working on the 5% when a dogs walks by and Petey bolts. He charges at the dog and its owner and growls and drools but doesn't bite. Then he has a fun run around the neighborhood. Eventually, we catch him. We thank the powers watching over us that a bus hasn't run him over!

 

I recently lost it with Petey after his 'run'. I turned him on his back in the middle of the road and hollered at him for a few minutes. I must have looked like a wild woman with my hair in my face and my 'inside clothes' on. It wasn't pretty and I hope the neighbors didn't see!

 

Anyway, Petey seemed to wake up and realize that these runs aren't that much fun anymore! So now I need to continue this 'training'. After reading this thread I still am unsure about what to do next. I think the 'running him down' method would work with this little freak. But he's a h*ll of a lot faster than me!

 

We live in a nice old residential neighborhood, have a big fenced yard (plus invisible fence to prevent digging under!) in the back and then the front yard is just invisible fence. Petey is never in the front yard by himself. Petey spends all day with me, I telecommute. He lives a life of leisure and I want to put him to work.

 

Other than waiting for some poor, unsuspecting dog to come along and then risk Petey's injury on his run... I don't know where or how to practice recalls.

 

Here is my dream... take Petey to the big, empty park... have him run around the border of the field and come back to me. Kind of like a sheepdog with no sheep. I'd like to be able to get him to go down from a distance... lets say if a dog wanders into the field (or better yet... a cat).

 

My second dream... take him to the river and let him jump in and chase a ball with my friend's dogs. I worry he will just disappear into the woods.

 

This is our mission. Can you help us?

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by lagasan:

Here is my dream... take Petey to the big, empty park... have him run around the border of the field and come back to me. Kind of like a sheepdog with no sheep. I'd like to be able to get him to go down from a distance... lets say if a dog wanders into the field (or better yet... a cat).

Do you want him to come? Or do you want him to "down"? These are two different commands.

 

You'e already read everything on the reliable recall, so you should be able to get your dog to obey that if you do it properly.

 

As for downing - all of my dogs reliably down at a distance, and that's because I make them We practiced downs in all sorts of situations, all the time. They down at curbs, they down when we meet people and I stop to chat, they down when I want to get a newspaper out of the box - and they definitely down when they are working, because if they don't lie down on command I run up to them through the sheep, take them by the collar and lie them down. Then I praise them.

 

So the key is - make your dog lie down every single time you want him to. Set him up if you have to ... get someone to walk past with a dog and tell your dog to lie down and enforce it if he doesn't comply. Put him on a thin line and back away and give the command - if he ignores it, run after him, take him back to where you first gave the command and lie him down.

 

Today at the park the freaky guy with the nasty Husky walked past us - I heard him coming so I turned around and told my dogs "Lie Down" with my backs to them. They were all in a down position when I looked back at them. They know better than to ignore the command, and they also know that if they lie down, another command is going to come that usually leads to more fun (such as "give me the ball and let's play again")

 

But I have a question for you - why do you want him to go running the perimeters of a park? One thing about my dogs is they won't go more than 30 or 40 feet from me in any situation unless they are working. They know their job is to hang around waiting for me to tell them what to do. They aren't encouraged to go roaming on their own and they don't want to anyway. So what you maybe need to do is improve the relationship between you and the dog so he doesn't want to go off on his own. If you provide all things fun, and you also prove that you can be NOT fun when things don't go your way, your dog will be more inclined to hang with you.

 

My second dream... take him to the river and let him jump in and chase a ball with my friend's dogs. I worry he will just disappear into the woods.

Doubtful ... if he likes the ball, and he likes the company of other dogs, and he likes the river, why would he leave? And if you have a reliable recall, how could he?

 

As for your invisible fencing issue, this has nothing to do with the thread but this is precisely the reason I won't adopt to homes with invisible fencing - they fail to work far too often. That and the fact that other dogs can come in and harass your invisibly fenced dog all they please and there is nowhere he can go to escape.

 

And to go back to your situation, you can set him up for this too - if you never leave him alone in the front yard, that means he only does the bolting thing when you are there. So if you set him up - get someone to walk by with a dog - you can stop him before he starts. As soon as he starts to charge I would yell "HEY! YOU GET BACK HERE YOU BUGGER" and start running at him the *moment* he shows interest in bolting. Just like a normal recall, it should get his attention and you can stop him. Stop him a few times, and he probably won't try it again.

 

RDM