He runs away

[jennyc]

Michael,

 

I have a dog who had/ has almost the exact same habit. He came from the pound at only 4 months, and is half border collie, half husky. His problem is a recall when there are other animals in sight, or occassionally when he is percieving the neighbor's dog's activities, even when I am not.

 

I took him to group obedience classes (in which I am proud to say he was a little star) and private obedience when he still needed work on this recall under these certain circumstances. I live in the country, in the woods, so when he goes he is out of my sight quickly and I am not fast enough to chase him anywhere. I got lots of great advice from people on this site and tried hope on a rope and other methods as well. I have found that I can yell my head off at him and the only affect is tired lungs! I laughed at myself when I came out from hiding behind a tree or walking in the other direction from where he was running, because frankly, he is not at that point at all concerned with me. He knows where he lives and has always come home on his own time. For safety and courtesy reasons (ie the road and the neighbours) this is not acceptable to me.

 

So . . . . the solution that I have used to date is keeping him on a long rope (always in my sight) and it has its flaws. My husband is not always as interested in the rope method, so occassionally Scout still goes for a jaunt, reinforcing how much fun it is to escape. Also, everytime I move around on the property I have to unclip his rope and move him to another tree.

 

The solution I am currently looking at is an invisible or underground electric fence. I know there are a number of people both for and against this on this web site and I can see the valid points of both opinions. However, compared to my dog's current level of freedom, I feel an electric fence will greatly improve his quality of life (and help my nerves too, as I am very concerned and stressed every time he escapes). I also understand that most dogs do not often get a shock from the fence. They learn its location, and the one I am looking at has an audio warning signal that I am fairly confident my dog would learn to recognise further enabling him to avoid a shock.

 

All that being said, not all invisible fences are created equally, and they are not cheap. The one I am looking at allows me to have a 30' wide shock zone (not including the warning area in front of it) and is based on a radio signal so the dogs collar does not have to be in any specific position for it to be effective. It also comes with a 3 month money back guarantee, to mitigate against the stories I have heard of dogs running through the fence and learning this option. Another benefit for my situation is that once the system is purchased, large amounts of the wire are relatively cheap, so I can give Scout a large area.

 

I am not saying this is the perfect solution, but I am hoping it is the one that works for us. All that being said, my dog is half husky, a breed notorious for their wander lust and independence from people. 90 days is not a long time and hopefully you will not have to go to these lengths to provide safety for your dog.

 

And in the end, whether it is my shortcoming as a trainer or the dog's that necessitates the fence doesn't matter as much as the fact that I can improve his quality of life with it.

 

All the best of luck with your challenge.

 

Jenny and Scout

[Lucy Goosey]

I consider escaping and an unreliable recall to be two separate problems that can overlap. First, if the dog can escape, then your containment system is inadequate. That is where I would start as far as the escaping. I'm not a big fan of invisible fences, because of all the drawbacks such as running through it and then not wanting to come home badly enough to run back through it the other way, as well as if the dog happens to run through it at the moment that another dog or person is nearby, the dog can make an association between the shock and the dog/person, which can increase aggression.

 

The recall should be practiced frequently under no distraction, then low amounts of distraction, and then high distraction. At first, the distance between the dog and yourself needs to be very short. Only as the dog comes every time you call them at a short distance should you increase the distance, in a small increment. When you increase the level of distraction, decrease the distance, slowly increasing only as the dog proves it is reliable.

 

During this process, the dog should never have the opportunity to NOT come when you call. That means no off leash priveleges, period. A long line is fine, even a 50 footer that you let the dog drag, provided that you are able to step on it before it gets out of your range and that you use it only in places where it won't become hopelessly tangled on brush/vegetation/objects.

 

I have a 7yo BC mix that we adopted from the pound 6 years ago, and so far, I have not been able to build a back yard that can hold her. Of course, I haven't tried ten foot high chain link buried two feet underground and topped with razor wire, complete with guard towers equipped with spotlights yet. She's smart and determined enough that if she wants to go, she can always find a way. So, she is never left in the yard unsupervised. She goes out for short periods to potty, play, or chew a bone, but is constantly watched. Her recall is good, however, so if we do catch her escaping or having already escaped, she comes back when we call her. So I know how challenging it can be to deal with a canine escape artist.

[lagasan]

Thanks all!

 

I agree with the skeptics regarding the invisible fence as a primary method of Border Collie containment. All of our friends with Labs love their fences. But a BC is nota Lab. The main reason I had the fence installed was to stop the digging under and jumping (climbing?) over the 6 foot fence in the backyard. That has worked wonderfully. But then Petey is still thinking about it. I can see the wheels turning.. "if I jump off the deck railing onto the top of the fence, will I get shocked?" But we've had it about 8 months with no backyard fence challenges. And I don't leave him out back unless he wants to be out there.

 

The invisible fence in the front was a trial thing. So we have tried it and most of the times, it works. Plus, I will never leave him out there alone. Petey only does the escape lunge at the driveway, where we also leave for walks. I am reinforcing with volunteer dogs and friends to challenge Petey on the escape lunge. I think the charge at him is the key.. something I never would have considered until I did it out of anger that one day.

 

So recall and down will be our job for the next month. I may still use the clicker but use the squeaky ball instead of food. I think the clicker is a good way to tell him "You got it" from a distance. But where to practice? A guess any big field if I have him on a long line.

 

I've found that he can learn anything... but if he doesn't want to do it, he won't do it. So I need to show him that for these two lifesaving things... he better do it!

 

Thanks! And please keep those opinions coming!

[SoloRiver]

There is a very detailed recall program here:

 

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/Lesson6.html

 

She teaches the recall with lots of rewards and repetition. Once the dog is known to be solid and competent with the command, and a case can be made for failure being the result of willful disobedience (rather than simply not really understanding the command -- important distinction), she will use aversives.

 

Her top-level aversive is a shock collar. I would not personally use a shock collar, although I am willing to believe that it is possible to use one in a humane manner. Maybe she uses shock collars because she has dogs that would run away if she moved toward them.

 

Fly came with a recall; I taught Solo's recall using probably 95% rewards and 5% corrections. He rarely refuses recalls, but it does happen. I have found that in these instances, running at him, giving verbal corrections and perhaps taking hold of his ruff and making him look me in the face are completely sufficient. Then I call him again and back up and he always follows me. He has never run away from me in these cases. The most important thing seems to be that the correction is clear, emphatic, and concise. And then you immediately give the dog another chance to redeem himself -- when he does, reward lavishly.

 

You must remember, though, that Solo's recall was first taught with lots of repetitions, and lots of rewards, and that it is maintained with lots of rewards (sometimes food, sometimes praise, sometimes a throw of the ball) so that he remains highly motivated to come when called. I didn't use corrections until I was sure he knew what a recall was and that the corrections were fair. The corrections I feel comfortable with are non-physical corrections. If I found myself thinking I needed to do things like pick Solo up clear of the ground and shake him, or hit him, or put a shock collar on him, then I would probably back up and start the process of training a recall all over again.

[Sabreur]

I taught recalls using a long line and click and treat. Took about two months of daily practice to get it right. I still practice recalls 5-10 times every day.

 

To work on the down at a distance, start with a down with the dog right in front of you. Then gradually increase the distance--you might have to leash the dog to a tree or something to keep him from coming to you. I use a double whistle to train--the regular whistle means come, the triller (like a ref's whistle) means down. This is also something you have to work at for quite a while to perfect, but it is a very useful behavior.

 

Instead of a shock collar, there is a French company that makes a radio-controlled collar that uses an odorless spray that is quite effective--it is called a Master Plus, and is quite expensive, but it doesn't hurt the dog. I have one that I put on my younger dog when we go into the woods--his recall is good, but I want to make sure he comes back, even if he sees a deer. Don't know if it is available in the States.

 

Cheers, MR

[emmetteabrakai]

Is it safe to come out now Learned allot, Thanks for the extended explinations. Now I suggest every one go and hug there dogs to put this all in perspective. :eek:

Andrea D.

[emmetteabrakai]

oops go out and hug their dogs.. is what I meant to say.

[border_collie_crazy]

You won't accomplish anything with a clicker and a tennis ball reward in this particular arena

thats funny, happy is positivly trained, toy motivated and clicker trained, if she goes after a bunny the second her name is out of my mouth or the second I wistle she turns on a dime and comes straight back to me. one call back, and now she will not go after ANYTHING wothout my permission, she looks, but then looks at me, if I say go ahead, shes off, if I say forget it, she gos ok, and continues on nicley. she has been on fight mode with another dog, everyone though "ohno" thinking their would be a fight guess what?? I gave a whistle and she was at my side in a flash, and never glanced at the dog again. the trainor said I have an amazing partership with happy, after all I am only 15 and I can control 2 border collies like this and they are positvly trained.