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Emmie's 'instinct test', first lesson...


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Hi Folks,

 

This is really long. I won't hold it against you if you don't read it all!

 

As some of you know, I adopted a failed cattle herding Border Collie from a shepherd/rancher about a month ago. She's about 19-20 months old now, and a very sweet girl. She had failed to work cattle in a manner that suited them, lacked "confidence", and, in fact, preferred not to herd, thus she needed to be rehomed.

 

Today, I took her out to a local trial trainer for an 'instinct test'/lesson. I was skeptical, because Emmie has not shown any interest in herding anything in the time she's been with us (except my cat once or twice and a rabbit, but that was more like chasing), and she's very shy around other dogs and people - very timid.

 

Here's how it went.


We got there at 9am and met the assistant/partner trainer at the pen. There were a few other BC's out and about, and some other livestock - some chickens, a few horses. That was my first surprise, Emmie showed no shyness around the border collies and went right up to them to introduce herself.

 

She was more reserved around the trainer, and I expected that. She wanted to keep a safe distance from her and hid behind me and my wife at times. That was ok, the trainer knew about her temperament and was very soft spoken and kind to her.

 

After the meet and greet, we took Emmie, on lead, and another BC female, the one she had just met (a cute, tiny smooth coated girl who was very keen and eager to go). We were told to stand outside the pen while the other dog herded the sheep to see if Emmie showed any interest.

 

The other dog was really stunning to watch, to me at least (I haven't seen many working dogs). It was all crouching and stalking and perfect gathering of the sheep by running around them and keeping them together. She really looked the part and knew what she was doing, it was really cool to see.

 

Emmie was definitely expressing interest, she was sitting, gazing intently at the other dog and really seemed excited, seemed to want to give it a go. So, we let her in the pen, kept her on lead at first. She moved towards the sheep and was pulling a bit to get at them, so we took the other dog out of the pen and let Emmie work them for a bit.

 

Since this was my first exposure to dogs working livestock I have no way to assess what Emmie was showing, but here's what it looked like to me.

 

She did *not* have the elegant run around the outside gathering style as the other dog and not nearly the style. She did give 'eye', but did not crouch as low, or stalk as stylishly. She *did* appear to want to keep the sheep together, though, she just was going about it wrong;

Instead of running completely around the outside of the flock, she tended to run 'almost' to the outside, basically keep 3 sheep inside the curve and forcing the outside sheep to split off.

 

She did seem to want that sheep to go with the others, because when that sheep broke off, she would chase along side it, mostly biting at its side and rump. She wasn't biting hard, but did get a mouthful of wool a few times. To my untrained eye, it looked like she was wanted to drag the other sheep back towards the others rather than getting on the other side and guiding it back. Not sure what she was thinking, but that's what it looked like to me. A few times, she got pretty rough with the sheep, and I think the sheep were getting pretty PO'd at her.

 

A few times she did manage to gather them up and the trainer was pleased when she did and let her know. Unfortunately, Emmie was *very* aware of the trainer and seemed to be anxious of her presence, especially when she was holding the crook. She seemed (and the trainer observed) to be afraid of doing the wrong thing, so she resorted to biting. This is in line with what the rancher I adopted her from told me.

 

More often then not, she would get 3 of the four sheep going in the right direction and then spend most of her attention on the 4th, who seemed to being forced out of the huddle by her own tendency of not completely circling them.

 

Anyway, one thing that seemed clear to me is that Emmie was enjoying herself. She seemed very happy to be in there and was not a bit afraid of the sheep, which was a surprise (she slinks away from tiny little dogs, cats, small children, etc in our neighborhood). She also clearly was "trying" to work, her tail was tucked, and while she did not crouch low, she did lower her head and stalk towards them before accelerating and her gaze was pretty focused on them (with the exception of when the proximity of the handler and her crook distracted her).

 

We took a break after about 10 minutes or so and the trainer let all the BCs that were penned in the barn out to run around. Emmie was really pleased with this! For the first time, I saw her really wanting to participate and socialize with other dogs. She ran with them for a bit and seemed very happy to be in their midst. Given her shyness and/or dismissiveness of the neighborhood dogs, I was really surprised at how enthusiastic she seemed around others of her kind.

 

After the break, we went back to the pen and it was more the same. Emmie was trying to control them, not always knowing what to do, doing a lot of nipping and slamming, occasionally gathering them up, but more often letting one sheep out of the cluster and then focusing on it. Occasionally, she seemed to want to just charge in and blow up the huddle, like a billiard break.

 

She didn't last too long in the 2nd go around. She ended up quitting on the handler and came to my feet and laid down, lol. We ended the session there, as the thought was not to force things with her. It was kind of funny, when she was done, it was obvious she was done. I don't know if it was fatigue or if she got overheated or got hurt or if it was just too much stimulation, but it was clear she switched off and wanted to opt out at that point.

 

The plan is to take her out several more times to see if she starts gaining confidence before deciding whether or not we want to continue. She seemed to enjoy herself, so I'm on board with that and will be taking her out next time there's a slot open.

 

She's going to have to let up on the stock, though. If she cant' figure out how to control them without getting so rough, we'll have to find something else to do, as the poor sheep were really worn out at the end (they were just huddled in the middle of the pen, heads lowered, staring at my dog and not moving a single fiber of muscle until we were well out of sight). Oh, sheep are tougher than I thought, too. I got slammed by one standing at the side of the pend and it almost knocked me down and I'm near 200 pounds, strong beasts.

 

It also made me want to get a 2nd BC. I know, I should wait a bit, but it was really sweet to see her amongst her 'own kind' and how happy it made her to be around the other dogs. Plus, I do eventually want a second, but I digress.

 

Anyway, if you made it this far, thanks for reading.

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Sounds like she did great! Especially for a dog that had to be rehomed because she didnt herd up to the rancher's standards! The crouch and slinkish look that the more experienced dogs have usually develops over time (Chloe didnt have it at first, although Libby had it the minute we took her on sheep. So it just varies between dogs), so don't worry that she'll never be a graceful and beautiful sheepdog! Usually the second and third (and on and on) exposures to sheep go better and better. Some times people have to take their dogs to sheep multiple times before the dog is even out doing what Emmie was doing on her first exposure to sheep! So be proud! :) I hope you two have a great time in this herding world! One thing I learned when I first started is I had just as much to learn as the dog! (Maybe more...) Good luck! :)

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Thanks!

 

Kassidy, thanks for the encouragement. I knew she had been on stock before, but not sure if she's ever been on sheep. It was really cool to see her turn on like that, and honestly I didn't expect it. I think there are only a couple of these training days/month, so it'll be a while before I can get out there again, but definitely plan to go. Hopefully she won't quite on us next time! that was a little embarrassing, because she was all gung-ho while we were there alone, but she decided to shut down just when the next students were arriving :(

 

Chantal, thanks for the kind words. I feel like we hit the jackpot rescuing this dog, she's wonderful.

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I'd say she did just fine! Everything you've described is about what I'd expect, given her youth and her initial experience with livestock. She is recognizes the sheep as livestock but she's apprehensive about them, so she's kind of being silly. Not quite covering her livestock, (that's where she lets the one go and then tries to bash around getting it back) and biting or shouldering them to get them to obey her is just the behavior of an eager youngster who doesn't know what to do.

This was only her first time on sheep! I think with time, kindness and patience she should come on fine. You might ask your trainer if she'd do better with shorter sessions. Quitting and coming back to you just means she has absorbed all that her brain can handle for one session. So, next time perhaps do a little less. That's a lot of stress for her, a lot to figure out. But from what I'm seeing, she's going to get it! :) Take time to let her learn and to learn with her. I think you're off to a good start.

~ Gloria

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I wouldn't be worried about her behavior. Remember that she was used to working on cattle and if she's fearful at all as a result (not to mention lacking confidence in her ability to move the stock), she will do the very things you saw. If it's any comfort, if she was grabbing wool, then she wasn't likely doing much in the way of damage.

 

I suspect that the only way she felt she could move cattle was to use her body to apply pressure, hence the cutting in and inadvertently cutting one of the sheep off. That sort of thing can be fixed fairly easily (usually) but because she's a bit leery of the trainer, it's going to take some careful treading on the trainer's part to apply enough pressure to get her to give the sheep more space without turning her off with too much pressure.

 

Anyway, I think it sounds like a good start, and as Gloria said, she did about what any young dog would do.

 

As for crouch and style, there are varying degress of that, and if Emmie doesn't have a lot of eye, she may never crouch/creep as much as your trainer's dog did. Not all border collies work that way. My main work dog, whose mother is pretty stylish, is a much more upright worker. That's not a bad thing--it's just that people tend to associate the crouch/creep with working border collies, but that's just one end of the spectrum of working style.

 

J.

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Thanks Folks! I think she did well, too. My only regret is that my wife didn't bring her camera to get some action shots, we'll be sure to do that next time. I feel like it will be a balancing act, as others have alluded to, between building her confidence and getting her on course with correction. The trainer sent me an email (rather a reply to one of mine). I hope she doesn't mind me posting it here, but it sums up what happened in terms that will probably make sense to you folks. I'm going to get the book she recommends so I can be an active participant in this dog's rehabilitation on stock.

 

From the trainer:

 

Emmie did just fine today in my opinion. It was pretty obvious she had gotten in big trouble when gouging in to grip - whether it was a cow kicking at her or someone using a heavy hand or a shock collar, I could tell that when she got a certain distance to the sheep, she would back out like she was threatened and "turn off" / go back to you. What I wanted to see today was her using her eye (indicates she actually cares about sheep and wants to control them) and being cognizant of the sheep escaping and "working" to keep them together. She was stressed but I think once she's understands that sheep and stock sticks do not mean pain for her, she will be more trusting. That said, she will get more rambunctious.
Your dog is soft (sensitive) but she isn't weak. She is a bit confused and doesn't want to screw up. <name withheld> should be out on Saturday next week, as will I so we can get her thoughts on Emmie at that time if you're coming out. All in all, i feel Emmie has instinct to work and I think you can eventually get her working well, it will just take some time to build up her trust. We need to make sure we don't put her in situations where she will lose confidence, so no tricky sheep (no rams for sure) and definitely no cows or goats. If she gets too grippy (bitey) we just have her wear a basket muzzle for awhile - that keeps you from stressing out and yelling "no" all the time and the sheep are happier too! Her biting is a stress thing plus she doesn't know any other way to move the sheep. Training helps to show her the "right" way.
Next session, bring a baseball cap. We will use that instead of a crook/stick. And, you will be doing more of the handling as well since she trusts you more than me. If you have time, get the book Herding Dogs: Progressive Training (on amazon) by Vergil Holland. It has all the fundamentals in there and will help illustrate what pressure, balance and flanking is and will show you where you as handler should try to be.
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I have that book and love it. I had a girl that sounds really similar to yours in temperament, I suspect she was a failed sheep/cattle dog too, as she was dumped in the country and so submissive at the shelter that she would crawl on her belly and pee when greeting people. She was so different on stock, very confident. She didn't have the gripping problem but she did need to learn how to take correction. I took her to a couple Patrick Shannahan clinic and in the beginning she wouldn't even work for Patrick, or he had to turn his back to her, because it was too much pressure for her. She got a lot better with time though, once she knew she was safe and no one was going to hurt her.

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It was my place, my sheep and Janet was the trainer. Emmie was showing all the characteristics of a first timer with some lack of confidence on sheep. Plus Janet wasn't sure how she was corrected before. However she did well for a first time and as you work with her more, she will get a lot more confident as well. A lot of what she did is what a new dogs does the first time on stock. Not to mention, your dog had some baggage and needs to feel safe and she did show she was feeling comfy by playing with the other dogs and having fun. We are going to Ground Zero with her. Janet and I talked about a training plan for you today at lunch. The more you do with Emmie, the more she will trust you and the better the relationship will be! You will really love this journey with her!

 

The dog that Janet used to sort the sheep was Sava. I brought her back from the UK and she is a daughter of Aled's Roy. She is very well trained to the top level and I just sold her to Janet. When I first started her, she ran in and pulled a sheep down and held it down for me......she has learned she doesn't need to do that anymore......she is a very talented dog now and a real joy to work.

 

I would ask Janet about posting her email before you do that......

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Thanks Folks!

 

Hi Dianne! thanks for chiming in, your place is great. We had a nice time out there and the dogs were awesome. I hope we can get out there regularly, though my wife sometimes tends to push back on my hobbies, so we'll see (the trick will be to make it her hobby, too :) ). I wish I didn't live in the suburbs or I'd be getting me a pack of BC's, Emmie seemed so happy there.

 

I did order the book, so hopefully I'll be getting it before the next time out so at least I can understand a little better about what I'm doing. BTW - it could be my wife that ends up handling her, too, or both of us, as she's even more strongly bonded to her than to me (my wife has spent more time with her as she has flexible hours and works from home a lot). She actually would have been in the pen instead of me with, except she was wearing sandals that day. Do you have to choose one person? Or, can a dog have two handlers?

 

And yeah, I should have asked permission to post that response, sorry about that. The intent was to clarify what happened in terms that would be meaningful to the board members (I don't have the context or vocabulary to describe what I saw, while I thought that mail summed it up well, and she has excellent communication skills). I thought if I removed personal references it would be ok, but on second thought, you're right, I should have just asked.

 

One thing that jumped out at me from Janet's email, that Emmie was stressed out out there. To me, it looked like she was having a good time, but I guess just because she's driven by instincts to react a certain way, that doesn't necessarily equate to enjoyment. Hopefully she'll learn to enjoy it, but that will be another factor in determining whether we do it long term, it has to be something she enjoys.

 

Anyway, hopefully we'll be out again asap. It's good to know you think Emmie has some potential, I guess the trick will be to figure out how to guide her instincts without hurting our relationship with her as she's so sensitive, and, of course, to get to the point that she's enjoying it out there.

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I had a student out today...it is his fourth time...the first two times, his dog would halfway run to the sheep then back to him....total lack of confidence...and when we did get him going, he would run up the middle, bust them and run back......on the third time the light bulb started to click in and we did several short sessions...and today, the light bulb really clicked on....he was able to gather (fast) and bring the sheep and by the end, was able to do small figure 8....still not 100% confident but took a bit to get the process going...he was a rescue found on the street and is 7 yrs old. On the third lesson, I put Rain in the pen so he could see it was ok and maybe to help him...it seemed to let him know it was ok and then it went well after that. His owner is amazed at how he has changed, once he figured out it was ok but what I noticed was when he first came here, he would grab a stick to play...at the beginning of today, he had the stick when he was at the gate, then slowly let it drop, never to pick it up again....that is when I noticed her "saw the light"....even after the lesson after the dogs were all playing, the stick laid next to the gate.....and he stands at the gate, his eyes on the sheep than the stick.....once the dog gets comfortable, then they begin to relax.....your dog needs more time to bond to you as well as you haven't had her too long...it's a journey, with ups and downs, but truly a wonderful and heartwarming journey...one you will happy that you embarked on.....

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Thanks for everyone who gave encouragement, you were right, Emmie did a lot better today, her second time out. She seemed much more at ease and confident and less stressed. She gripped a lot less, but more appropriately according the to trainer and seemed to learn that she could turn the sheep easier by getting around them and in their face rather than loping along side them and pulling at their wool, so she was much better at collecting breakaways than last time.

 

She was running in nice, wide circles around the sheep in both directions (though she clearly favors one direction over the other) rather than charging straight in. And showing a lot more "style" and eagerness to engage. Her instincts were much more apparent, and she seemed less unsure of herself. This was due, I think, to the fact that the trainer was really purposeful in trying to show her that she was allowed to follow her instincts and wouldn't be harshly corrected for making a mistake and acting on her own impulses, within reason.

 

She actually looked like a real (albeit green) sheepdog out there. It looked to me like she was doing a much better job keep the sheep together and keeping her space between them, doing much more circling and darting back and forth to keep them together than running in and biting.

 

She also didn't quit this time, even after biting her tongue and bleeding all over the place. She gassed out earlier than the other dogs that were helping out, but she went a solid 30 minutes this time and didn't get discouraged the few times she got pummelled. I think her endurance will continue to improve as she learns that she doesn't need to do quite so "much" to get the sheep to comply (they definitely are taking her seriously and she could probably get by with some menacing looks and strategic placement of herself rather than quite so much force). She's probably a little out of shape, too, so I'll be taking her out running a bit more (good for me as well!). I was really pleased with how it went!

 

Thanks to Diane for having us, and being so kind to my daughter who really loved it out there, too.

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Just a note: It's likely the running out of gas isn't so much the result of lack of physical endurance as lack of mental endurance. Many dogs in training can't go very long because there comes a point when their brains just can't take in anything else. That's why many of us start youngster with short training sessions (in the beginning we may spend 5 minutes max). I know she's older and already started, but I just wanted to point out that her losing steam may have as much a mental component as a physical one.

 

J.

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It wasn't a 30 minutes session, it was two short sessions with a break in the middle...it was 30 minutes of time with the two works and one good break in the middle....she got tired (mentally) so we quit while she was still keen. (The other dogs that I ran are my Open level dogs who are really great condition and can work a lot longer). I also gave a demo with Nan and Maid.

 

She did quite well. The first session, I let her think and helped her see the light. She tried to turn the sheep by the shoulder but by the end, she was turning them at the heads and bringing them back. She had very nice balance and a good feel for her stock. Nice proper flanks on both sides, on the bubble and in contact. Once she figured out she was not going to be in trouble, she really keened up and began to work. We brought Rainey in to help her get started and feel like it was ok, then the light bulb went on. It was a good session and when we were done, she was at ease on the farm. Checking out the chickens, wandering around and feeling comfortable. She is re-learning her foundation and is eager to learn. By the end, she was quite happy and her confidence was quite high. She is a nice little dog and she comes from good lines. I used to run her grandpa and she is related to several of my dogs. I don't see anything wrong with her...she just needs more confidence and got lots today and with her, it will just be fun seeing her grow!

 

She really enjoyed herself and was pulling on the leash when we let the sheep out after the lesson....she didn't think she was done but her brain needed a rest. You want them to quit while they are keen and want more. On her second lesson, she did well and from now on, you will see more of a partnership, trust and her feeling her power.

 

Your daughter, Abigail, is quite sweet. I enjoyed talking to her and letting her feed the chickens. Nan loved giving her kisses too. She is welcome anytime and I enjoyed talking to her....she is very bright and you can tell she loves the animals.

 

It was a pleasure meeting you and you wonderful family.

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