rlwzgd Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 I've been lurking on the boards for a while and have owned (rather stewarded) several border collies in my life, but this newest addition has me so confused. Just after my search and rescue dog died, I saw a picture of a "chow chow" mix from the local shelter - yes, they had him labeled as chow... I went to look and immediately thought border in appearance and temperament, but I have three problems... 1. His tale has a lilac undercoat and behind his ears has a brown cast - suggesting that he might be a phantom merle because the rest of him is quite black. If you dig around, you can find random other patches with "off color" undercoat, his pads of his paws are splotched black and pink and there's some flecking in his eyes (haven't had the eye exam done to confirm the merle)... Here's the pictures of that: 2. His rear legs have double rear dew claws. I've read on here that some working lines can have these (they ought to be removed) but I didn't get him from the breeder, I got him from the shelter - not even the bc rescue. Our vet inspected the double dew claws and cautioned against removing them - he was already neutered and they were connected with bone. 3. He holds his tale curled above his back. I can't decide if this is just his attitude (he's been holding it down more and more) or if this is some breed mixed in... My observations seem to suggest that I ran across a working border at a shelter but the history they told me doesn't even make sense... Their story was that he was an owner surrender at 1 day old (really? I'm suppose to believe that)... I've had him since he was two months (according to the 10/27 birthday they gave me) and he's currently just over 8 months old... What I can't figure out is, what on earth was a border collie pup doing in a shelter without the rest of his litter? I feel like I need to know or conclude that I have a really amazing actor... Here's some pictures of his general self - what do you think? Do you see the border collie? Can you see anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 He looks BC to me. I have 2 pure BCs that have tails that curl over their backs when they aren't working, but they come right down where they should be when things are serious. Both of mine have the lighter tail hairs coming out of the bottom side. I have to wonder if it was an accidental breeding and the rest of the litter died. Sad, but it fits with what you have been told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Border Collie x livestock guardian dog (Great Pyr for example) is a common accidental breeding for farms. Livestock owners don't want them because, in general, they are a bit confused about their role. They have too much herding instinct to guard but not enough to herd. As a result, farmers tend to get rid of the pups. If he is a LGD x BC cross that could explain the double dew claws. I've know a number of these cross bred dogs, and many look very similar to a purebred BC, just a bit larger. People drop off animals of all ages at shelters. The shading doesn't make him a cryptic merle. There are many variations in Border Collie coat color and eye color. Some Border Collies will curl their tail over their back. It depends on tail set (structure) and temperament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Lots of border collies have rear dews. Double dews would be more unusual, but I have had some come through with doubles. it's not exclusive of working dogs. The whitish/greyish undercoat is not uncommon in dogs of another colour. Two of my dogs have white/grey undercoat (one tri, one red). The other two don't. Lots of border collies carry their tails over their backs when they aren't serious about life or a task. Some keep them up there even when they are. Mottled pads means nothing at all. He looks mostly/all border collie to me, but that doesn't mean much. If you love him, that means everything. All kinds of dogs end up at shelters. The world is full of strange/shitty/irresponsible dog owners. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 I just a had a foster who carried her tail curled on her back when she was playing, she carried it down when she was in a more serious mood. She was all border collie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellykca Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 I think he looks like a BC to me. Both my BC's curl their tails up when they are in a playful mood as well. Here is a pic of my girl with her tail curled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlwzgd Posted July 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 I knew you all could set me straight! This guy's definitely an awesome one, I'm glad to know his oddness is within the spectrum of normal bc... I don't really *need* to know, but I'm curious about his history, etc. I was almost wondering about a cross with an Aussie given the undercoat, but it seems like some bcs have that. Plus he looks nothing like an Aussie, actually. I hadn't considered litter mates dying, that's sad... I read up on fading puppy syndrome, if they were idiots that had no business breeding, it'd make sense that they dropped one off at the shelter... RDM, has a double on one side and a single on the other. You pegged his undercoat perfectly. I don't think he's lgd cross, but I hadn't thought of that either. He's only 30lbs and narrow as can be... He'd try to run a predator off and it would die laughing - might not be a bad plan. He's taken forever to show any herding instinct, it's really come out in the last few days... He keeps putting the cat in her appointed place, which is fine with me! I appreciate the responses! It's nice to know that I'm not nuts in thinking he might be at least mostly bc. He's a great dog and great at agility, so I'm curious to see what he'll turn out like in 4 or 5 years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlwzgd Posted July 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 By the way, Mellykca, your girl is beautiful! Al walks around in that attitude most of his life, too... It only ever comes down when there's work to be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassidy Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 I would advise that you are careful about what you let him herd, because once a habit starts it is hard to break, and someday he might take it to the next level or the cat will become super stressed out from being herded (or some other reason you want the herding of cats to be stopped) and it will be much harder to stop the behavior then compared to if you stop now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlwzgd Posted July 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Thanks for the advice - yeah, this isn't my first bc. I let my last one start herding rocks, that was a huge mistake. The cat is fine with being herded, as this isn't her first bc, either. He doesn't so much herd her as he would stock, but rather place her on her cat house and run her off of my kid's stuff (which is exactly what I want since my baby is allergic to cats). Thanks again for the input, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syncrope Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 His face reminds me a bit of our Pyrenees. Well, actually a bit like a combination of our Pyr and my border collie mixed together. Kind of a combination of the long face and round eyes with the long pointy nose. Hehe. And (of course) our Pyr also has the typical double dews. But you never know! Especially with BCs! Just gotta love 'em for who they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arf2184 Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 He's cute! Chow? No way! It can be very hard to tell when they are puppies so I'm betting who ever turned him in didn't say what or it wasn't documented if they did. Really, there's no way to know why your pup ended up at the shelter. Could be mom died or refused pup and owners didn't have time/means to care for a newborn pup so they did the responsible thing and turned him over to someone who could, or maybe they were idiots, or any number of things. What matters is he's got a loving home now. I wouldn't allow the herding/stalking of the cat at my house. It may be fine now, but it could escalate. The cat has a size disadvantage and if the pup (as puppies sometimes do) took it too far, well, its just not fair to the cat. Also, you probably don't want him to try and herd other peoples' cats when you are out and about. Just saying. About the dew claws, Bear still has his (12 1/2 yrs). Be sure to keep them clipped because they tend to grow faster than the rest. Other than that, there's no harm in leaving them. Have fun with your boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlwzgd Posted July 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Good points on the cat! He hasn't tried it in a few days because I'm keeping him tired with agility. When he tried it again, do you have any tips for discouraging that behavior without discouraging herding (I'd like to keep it as a future option)... I never planned on herding with my other dogs, so I didn't mind fussing at them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassidy Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Good points on the cat! He hasn't tried it in a few days because I'm keeping him tired with agility. When he tried it again, do you have any tips for discouraging that behavior without discouraging herding (I'd like to keep it as a future option)... I never planned on herding with my other dogs, so I didn't mind fussing at them! I don't think discouraging herding cats will hurt his drive to herd other things. That instinct is imbedded in them and all the training in the world couldn't get it out of them. You can redirect it, but not completely get rid of it. You should be able to discourage the herding cats behavior but have him still give his best when put on sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassidy Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 My personal experience with it is I can discourage the herding of other things, but the dog still gives its best on sheep. But, that is my personal experience, others may have had different experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogaddict Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Oh I definently see the BC in him! He could also be mixed with multiple other mixes, so keep that in mind. His face looks a little more slender than a border, though.. either way he's a cutie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 FWIW, my dogs are working dogs and herding the cats isn't an option, period. It's too easy for a cat (or the dog for that matter) to get hurt if things escalate. If you don't want the cat on your daughter's stuff, then it should be your job to move the cat. Remember that many border collies will take a job (moving the cat) and then take it to extremes if allowed. Why even go there? My dogs are open level trial dogs that I use on my farm and for set out at trials. Not letting them harass the cats has zero effect on their herding instinct/ability or their ability to be useful to me. A cat is NOT livestock, and a cat doesn't behave like a typical prey species (as livestock are), so whatever your dog is doing is not really herding anyway. The dogs also share the yard with my free range chickens and are not allowed to bother them either. I do have to go through a training period with puppies, during which chickens might be chased, but the rule here is no dog is allowed to harass any smaller animals (or larger ones for that matter). Even though I don't allow them to bother the chickens, my two main work dogs will herd the chickens if I need help getting them up for any reason. So they understand the context in which moving chickens is allowed or not. If I'm not out there directing the show, the chickens are to be left alone. The nice thing about well-bred border collies is that they generally are able to live with such nuances once taught them. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlwzgd Posted July 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Alright, seriously... What I wrote about the cat was unclear and out of context. You don't need to beat me over the head with it. I was trying to pass it off and it's not dying, so let's clear it up. I'm not loosey goosey about it. I've worked and handled many dogs (not all bc and not as many as you, I'm sure, but still quite a few). It's not like I'm sitting here going "duh dog chase cat, what" or "sick it fido" or any other idiotic response you'd like to insert... he has seen me run the cat off three million times and decided he'd do it... Like twice that day and none after. My follow up question is - if he does it again, what is the appropriate level of response. Unfortunately I had a search and rescue dog that I almost rendered useless by being to heavy handed. I don't want to make that mistake again. I was wanting to convey that he's a pup and I hadn't seen any instinct to chase anything. I was hoping you'd read "oh good, maybe he does feel like trying to herd something after all." I don't have the luxury of simply having him around stock, so I need to tease out what I can before I drive an hour or two to have him with stock. Julie, you took something way out of context if you think I'd let any of my animals harass another. Dogs cannot harass smaller animals (I have successfully had everything from rabbits to cats to dogs under the same roof at the same time all coexisting outside of cages - none of them were caged at any point just box trained where appropriate). Additionally, smaller animals cannot harass or torment the larger ones. I run a tight ship. When I'm not around, they don't touch each other, period. If they want to play, they have parameters and I can call any of them at any given second. I can see how you might be confused by what I wrote and what I meant. I do plead sleep deprivation for that part - my baby was sleeping through the night and is not anymore, so my use of English is limited. Unfortunately, it's online so you can't see my stammering self.in all my glory. Hopefully, you see that your impression and what I intended were totally different. I know the amount of energy used to correct each dog is different. What's your secret for not being too harsh but also getting your point across? FWIW, my dogs are working dogs and herding the cats isn't an option, period. It's too easy for a cat (or the dog for that matter) to get hurt if things escalate. If you don't want the cat on your daughter's stuff, then it should be your job to move the cat. Remember that many border collies will take a job (moving the cat) and then take it to extremes if allowed. Why even go there? My dogs are open level trial dogs that I use on my farm and for set out at trials. Not letting them harass the cats has zero effect on their herding instinct/ability or their ability to be useful to me. A cat is NOT livestock, and a cat doesn't behave like a typical prey species (as livestock are), so whatever your dog is doing is not really herding anyway. The dogs also share the yard with my free range chickens and are not allowed to bother them either. I do have to go through a training period with puppies, during which chickens might be chased, but the rule here is no dog is allowed to harass any smaller animals (or larger ones for that matter). Even though I don't allow them to bother the chickens, my two main work dogs will herd the chickens if I need help getting them up for any reason. So they understand the context in which moving chickens is allowed or not. If I'm not out there directing the show, the chickens are to be left alone. The nice thing about well-bred border collies is that they generally are able to live with such nuances once taught them. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Okay, let me try this again. First of all I don't think I took anything out of context. You said you let the dog run the cat off and place her on her house. Granted, this is an internet forum and no one can read body language. All I have to go by are your words. It doesn't matter whether you're actively siccing the dog on the cat or just not stopping whatever "herding" behavior you think you're seeing--the broader point is that *chasing* is not herding behavior; it's prey drive. You probably already know that, but if you've not had a herding breed dog before, it's easy to pass one off as the other; people do it all the time. After all, herding behaviors are modified prey drive behaviors. If your dog were actually circling (heading) the cat and preventing it from going in a particular direction, I would concede that the dog is exhibiting herding instinct. It may seem like a fine distinction, but it's an important one, especially if you think you might want to train on stock at some time in the future. To be honest, my training methods, and those of most people who raise working stockdogs, involve corrections. Some people aren't comfortable with that idea, but it's really a whole foundation that's being built from day one. And because it's often misconstrued (not necessarily by you, but if past history is any indication....), correction is NOT punishment. A typical correction should never be harsh enough to turn a dog off working. It's more about interrupting a thought process and inseritng yourself back into the picture to get things going in the right direction again. I have a 13-week-old puppy here now. She's from a litter I bred, so I've had influence over her from day one, but even if not, the training starts when the pup walks in the door. They learn a correction word (or words) from the start. Something short, snappy, that will easily get their attention. I use "Aaahhht!" or "Ah ah!" or something similar (including "no;" they all understand multiple corrections, though they can have slightly different meanings in different contexts). If the pup is gnawing on me and I want it to stop, the correction word is used and the pup is removed from my skin. (As you've raised many dogs, you're probably already familiar with these techniques, but since you asked about stopping behaviors without being too heavy-handed, I'm putting this forth). The same goes for any other undesirable behavior. I still let a pup be a pup, but early on it learns that if I speak a certain word(s) or a certain way, it needs to stop what it's doing. For little puppies I will redirect their attention to something appropriate. For older puppies, I will simply use the voice correction to stop what I don't want and then allow the pup to make the next choice. To me, the reason a voice correction is most important is there are plenty of times when the dog is not near enough to you for you to effect any other viable correction (like physical intervention). If the pup has a chicken by the tail and is having a grand old time while the chicken flaps and squawks, I want to be able to stop that behavior instantly, Likewise, if a youngster decides to grab a sheep and go for a ride, I am not physically capable of running down the pup attached to a running sheep, so my voice is really my only tool. I won't go on about voice corrections any longer than I already have, except to say that while all your early training is going on, you'd assess your dog's personality/temperament just as you would have done with any of your previous dogs. Is he corrected/cowed easily? Is he sensitive to any pressure you put on him? Is he completely obliviious to your voice corrections or any body pressure you try to put on him (e.g., stepping in his path to block him from, say, chasing after a squirrel)? Depending on what you gain in feedback from your dog, you'd change your methods to suit his personality as a trainee. My pup right now seems to have a lot of her grandmother in her--she's not easily deterred and not easily cowed. Right now, she's exhibiting a little bit of the "Oh yeah? Make me!" temperament (her grandma to a T, sigh). But she's still a baby, so as long as I can interrupt the behavior with my voice and then either walk her down or get really happy and call her to me when she's misbehaving (chasing the chickens, searching for tasty cat poo, etc,), I can work through it. So there's no easy answer on when you may be too heavy handed. Your dog should tell you by its response to whatever you're doing, and when you read that information from your dog, then you change your tactics accordingly.And as you know those personalities can change over time, which is why I am not too worried about my pup being something like her grandma. It's hopefully just a stage she's going through. But at this stage, I won't come down on her like a ton of bricks either because she is such a baby. If she were my nearly 2-y.o. dog chasing the chickens, then I'd probably have a different response (that said, I'd still start with a voice correction for the older dog, but if I had to walk her down she might get a scruff shake or a harsh talkng to, which I wouldn't do to a little puppy, ecxcept in the most egregious cases, like physically mauling a small animal). Sorry if that sounds super basic. I have the same basic approach for all the youngsters I raise, but as I learn the individual, I tailor my own actions to suit the pup's personality and learning style. (For example, I had littermates, one of which is now one of my main work dogs. His sister went through a period of blowing off my recalls and running down to the pond whenever I wanted to leave the house. I'd have to walk to the pond to go get her and bring her back, which as you can imagine got real old real fast. She started wearing a drag line until we got past that stage. Her brother never wore a line because he never blew me off like that.) I will mix up methods--treat or other reward based, correction based, perhaps even using a tool like a long drag line, whatever works best for a given situation, and sometimes a combination of approaches. So if I'm teaching a recall to a pup and the pup is blowing me off (and isn't wearing a drag line), I will first give a voice correction (Hey!) to get the pup's attention off whatever it's currently on and on to me. I'll then call the pup in a very happy, singsong voice. When pup comes, there's a party that involves much praise and usually treats. On an older pup who understands a recall but is going through a rebellious stage, I might add a drag line so I can real the little sucker in, but the other basic steps would be the same. I don't know if that answered your question or not, but generally unless you have a super soft or sensitive dog, you won't damage any desire to work by correcting for chasing behaviors when it's still a youngster. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlwzgd Posted July 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Yep, you're right, I didn't explain what happened well, so you assumed I meant one thing when I really meant another. It bothers me that you think I'd let one of my animals do anything aggressive toward another, but you don't know me from Adam so you haven't had time to make out my character (and let's face it, most people have no business owning dogs, let alone working dogs... It takes a special type to be alpha). So let me explain what I many by place her: he was not chasing (nose up her rear), rather he was very specifically stopping her from changing direction other than choosing the right one. He moved at her pace and basically just stood where she was not allowed to go (presenting his side to her to block her). This was not the eye stalk, but rather more like a loose eyed breed. No teeth, no snapping (because I've certainly seen chasing). If it were simple chasing, he'd be sunk because no one is allowed to chase. That gets an immediate no and "break time" - which is go sit in you kennel and cool off. My previous bcs, I could literally yell at them all day and they'd still be going in circles. They were stubborn and driven. With this guy, one look and he's done. He is not stubborn about herding at all. I got him for agility, and he's excellent at agility (minus the jumps because of his age). I was thinking of trying something new with herding, as that's the one thing I've never done with a dog. Now I'm questioning his drive. I assumed all borders would have it (which I honestly know better with all the crappy breeders)... My other girls (that were purebred from a breeder) didn't come into their own until after a year, but I've read about people seeing it as early as 12 weeks. I'd assume herding is like any other task - you are teaching a dog to simultaneously think and take direction from you. I was iffy about correcting given that he's iffy about herding - and that might not be something he is ever good at. I think we have this cleared up... I really appreciate your input - especially given your experience with herding. I see that it's now like any other skill (ie, my cadaver dog was not allowed to track on walks). I should've assumed as much, but I haven't slept in a year and my brain is not working very well. Thanks again for the insight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 I'd assume herding is like any other task - you are teaching a dog to simultaneously think and take direction from you. I was iffy about correcting given that he's iffy about herding - and that might not be something he is ever good at. I would add the caveat that it's like many other tasks when you're talking about building on the dog's ingrained genetic behaviors (vs. teaching a dog to do something that it's not specifically bred to do--that is, say teaching a lab to iretrieve vs. training it to run flyball). The main difference with working stock is that third element--the livestock--which has a mind of its own and so adds a different "unexpected" aspect to the process. People who have worked with livestock (and not necessarily the type of stock you're working, but any livestock) usually learn much faster when it comes to training dogs on stock because they know how to read livestock and understand how animals react in certain situations. Most often people new to working stockdogs will note that their dog seems to know so much more about contrilling stock than they do. Some dogs show very early promise and some don't. Birdie at 13 weeks is showing interest in the sheep and will sometimes follow one of my older dogs around them, at least partway, but she's way too young to worry about training. A youngster needs to have the mental ability to take the training and, equally important, the physical ability to keep up with livestock before you try to start training. For owners who are completely new to working with livestock, a more mature dog (vs. taking a 6 moth old) is no disadvantage. If you read through past threads of folks who have taken their dogs to stock for the first time, you'll see a theme coming from the respondents: the first time or two on stock is NOT an indicator of how the dog will turn out in the long run, and whether the dog as a pup shows interest in herding/chasing things is NOT an indicator of what sort of working dog it will be. Some dogs require the presence of actual livestock (sheep, goats, cattle, ducks) to "turn on." In other words, just because you aren't seeing anything that you can interpret as herding instinct doesnt mean it's not there. Sometimes it just needs to appropriate context (and multiple occasions) to come out or be brought out. If you have a decent relationship with your dog and your dog understands corrections (voice and physical--presence--pressure**) then you have the basic foundation you'd need to attempt stockwork. **By this I mean a dog who will move off your physical pressure, so if you step into its space it gives ground to you (which isn't the case, say, with breeds commonly used for protection work). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 He's very cute! As others have said, all kinds of dogs end up in shelters, for all kinds of reasons... To me, though, I'm not seeing all BC. Possible BC mix, or I'd actually lean a little more towards Aussie or Aussie mix. Or maybe BC/Aussie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Your dog looks almost exactly like mine. I have seen other Border Collies that look like this here on the Boards, and their owners stated that they were known to be pure-bred Border Collies. Is he for sure? Who knows? I don't know for sure about mine either, but based on behavior and intelligence I think she is. She has the same coat shadings. And she carries her tail high when she's excited. Sometimes over her back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlwzgd Posted July 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 She has the same coat shadings. Why Can't I Go 2.jpg Sugar & Lambie 2.jpg And she carries her tail high when she's excited. Sometimes over her back. Awesome job on the pictures! I opened one and thought it was Al for a second, the similarities are remarkable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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