Smooth Coat Breeders in the Pacific Northwest?

[Maralynn]

A nicely bred smooth coated dog shouldn't be too hard to find - probably attending the trial would be your best bet for finding a lead. I love my smooth coated dog for the same reasons mentioned in the original post and can imagine a few situations where I might actively seek out a a smooth coated BC

[Gideon's girl]

Sorry to Pingo for interjecting genetics into the discussion. I'm completely facinated with genetics. Good luck on your hunt for a smooth.

[pingo]

Pingo-

Sorry for the hi-jack... But what do you make of these? I have 1 picture of what I would call a rough, two of what I would call in between or "flat", and one that I would consider a smooth. Would you be looking for a dog like the in between ones as well? Or only one like the last photo?

Rough Coat.jpg

Something in between.jpg

Something in between 2.jpg

Smooth Coats.jpg

ETA: I don't think I've ever seen a working Border Collie with a coat like the (Obviously conformation-type) one in the 1st picture. Too much hair!

 

 

I'm looking for the smooth coat. My BC had smooth coat. I was always amazed at how well she repelled whatever weather she encountered.

[Christina]

I know of a breeder in Utah who had smooth coat dogs available but I don't know of they are still.

[pingo]

Sorry to Pingo for interjecting genetics into the discussion. I'm completely facinated with genetics. Good luck on your hunt for a smooth.

I don't mind the discussion on genetics. I study cancer genetics.

 

In genome science courses, they always use cats as examples. I would have probably received better grades if the examples were dogs. Far more interesting to me.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I probably have the most smooth coats in my kennels in the PNW but don't plan on breeding any of them soon....maybe in a year or so.....but I know most of the trials folks up here and don't know of any that are breeding smooth coats.

 

But when you find a breeder check the main criteria is working...and make sure they do hips on BOTH parents as well as CERF and for sure DNA CEA. Some folks say they don't do hips/eyes because the dog works "just fine" or some other excuse.

 

Why are you not interested in any dogs from rescue?

[pingo]

I probably have the most smooth coats in my kennels in the PNW but don't plan on breeding any of them soon....maybe in a year or so.....but I know most of the trials folks up here and don't know of any that are breeding smooth coats.

 

But when you find a breeder check the main criteria is working...and make sure they do hips on BOTH parents as well as CERF and for sure DNA CEA. Some folks say they don't do hips/eyes because the dog works "just fine" or some other excuse.

 

Why are you not interested in any dogs from rescue?

 

I totally agree with your criteria for breeding and checking on CERF and DNA CEA.

 

Hmm. I've had dogs from breeders and dogs from rescues. Both sources have their pros and cons. My thought process for choosing a breeder vs. rescue in this circumstance is something I do not want to open to debate in an online forum. I think that is a topic that can polarize people and I'd rather just avoid that kind of conflict.

[Christina]

Utah breeder: http://www.batyangusranch.com/dogs-for-sale.html

 

No health tests but they are working farm dogs.

[mum24dog]

If I talk about a short coated BC here in the UK most people I know (many of whom have multiple BCs) would assume I meant a dog whose coat lies flat ie no free hair floating about and the shape of the dog is visible.

 

If I say long coated it would be understood that I meant a dog with a lot of pretty thick free coat.

 

Medium is somewhere in between - some free hair but not over long or thick but where medium becomes long would vary from person to person.

 

However, strictly speaking a dog like ours with flat lying hair in part up to 2.5 ins long could be called medium but that definition isn't in common usage - at least in my circles. He's 7 now and his coat is considerably longer and thicker than when he was 3.

 

You don't often here "Rough" used because of the confusion with Rough Coated (Lassie) Collies. "Smooth" is used but still causes some confusion amongst those who know that the Smooth Collie (Lassie with a short coat) exists.

 

I've no idea what the working folk call them - I'll have to ask, although I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was "dogs".

[ejano]

Rough Coat.jpg

ETA: I don't think I've ever seen a working Border Collie with a coat like the (Obviously conformation-type) one in the 1st picture. Too much hair!

Until I started looking at photos on these boards, I had never seen a smooth coat - and all the BCs I've known throughout my life were hard working dogs with heavy coats. My Robin comes close to that heavy of a coat in the winter - when the photo you posted was obviously taken.

 

Here is one of Robin in summer (gazing at his sheep). The sheep can assure you he is not a "barbie" collie

 

ETA:

(I took the photo out because it is linking directly to my photobucket account - something I can't quite fathom). The same photo is on my signature line.

[Sue R]

There are some world-class dogs with pretty long coats - I just saw a listing the other day of some of them, including one or more of Bobby Dalziel's top dogs. Of course, now I can't remember just where I saw that, along with a few photos. Robin French's Zac has a luxurious "lion mane" which is seen in some lines. But I have to say that the very heavily doubled-coated appearance that you see in the show ring is not something I have seen in a working dog. That over-abundant undercoat is just not there in my limited experience. I think it would be a great liability to a working dog, not an asset.

[ejano]

I suspect that if a working dog tends toward a heavier coat, how heavy the undercoat actually gets depends on the weather - I just spent a productive hour combing out the downy undercoat from my Red Dog and now he is nearly as flat-coated as Brodie. The poor BC I've been watching along the road to the farm (yes, she's still there in spite of my best efforts) who is out in every kind of weather has a coat that would rival that of any show dog. In the winter, Robin can tolerate much more cold than Brodie who is flat coated (but not slick).

 

The photo that Geonni posted is quite likely a show dog - the short square muzzle is a give away - but the generalization that a heavy coated dog can't exist in the working world is quite likely not borne out.

[PSmitty]

I don't know anything about the breeder that Christina posted, but man, male #4 is A-dorable!

 

I didn't go back and read, but I think there were a few comments about smooths being rare (or at least less common). Does everyone think we're seeing more of them? I know even a few years ago around here (I'm talking agility dogs), smooths were rare and now I'm seeing more and more of them at trials.

[OurBoys]

I could be way off base here but I believe there’s a difference in a heavy undercoat and a double undercoat.

 

To me, Jake has a regular undercoat. In the springtime when he starts blowing his coat, I can brush him out and end up with a large pile of fur but he looks slender any time of year.

 

Josie has a thick undercoat. She looks heavier during the winter months but after she blows her coat you can see how slender she is.

 

JJ has a double undercoat. I can brush him out for 2-3 hours, have a huge pile of fur and the boy still looks fluffy. Unless you run your fingers through his coat you would think he’s overweight. (Unless you’re standing around when he comes out of water but as soon as he shakes, he’s fluffy again.) JJ’s undercoat is one reason I believe he’s from AKC lines.

[Debbie Meier]

Regarding smooths being rare, not so much, atleast we see many, the two dogs that I liked the best as working dogs last year were both smooths and both went back to Scott Glenn's and Alasdair's dogs. But if may appear to be rare depending on the circle of breeders/dog owners that you keep. There are also parts of the country where you see more smooth and shorter haired dogs and then others where you see all rough coats. Some don't acknowledge short haired dogs to be border collies so if you ask them they will say that they never saw one when in deed they may have, it just didn't register in their mind that it was a border collie.

 

If you get looking toward breeders that are producing dogs more specifically to handle cattle you may see a higher percentage of short haired dogs, when you are out working in all conditions, especially mud and slop the short haired dogs are definitely a advantage when it comes to coat maintenance. At trials when we have had bad weather I've seen rough coated dogs go into their dog box at night soaked and still be wet in the morning where as our short haired dogs were completely dry the next morning.

 

[Liz P]

Smooth coats of excellent quality are plenty easy to find. You see many more at sheepdog trials than as pets or sport dogs. It's been my experience that the average pet owners only want rough coats, but if you work your dogs the smooths are much easier to have. I've lived in areas where burrs were so bad that you could not work a rough coat, period. I had my rough coat bitch disappear in some brush and never come out. I had to work my way in to rescue her then carry her home because her legs were stuck to her body by hundreds of burrs. It took hours and she had to be shaved nearly bald to get them all out.

 

Smoothies also dry faster, shed mud faster and don't built up snowballs in the winter.

 

In many ways, being smooth coated is an advantage while working. Being red, merle, or other fancy color has no advantage whatsoever. Good smooth coats are plentiful and easy to find. Good dogs of color are extremely rare. For that reason, you cannot compare someone wanting a smoothie to someone wanting a fancy colored dog.

[gcv-border]

I had my rough coat bitch disappear in some brush and never come out. I had to work my way in to rescue her then carry her home because her legs were stuck to her body by hundreds of burrs. It took hours and she had to be shaved nearly bald to get them all out.

Awww! It sure must have been really bad to stop a border collie.

 

Jovi

[alligande]

I had my first border collie get stuck a few times in pricker bushes when we were out walking... His tail would get caught.

 

The thickness of the undercoat from my experience is effected by the weather and the amount of time the dog spends outside. When we got Brody he was really fluffy, with absurd amounts of undercoat (this was early April) he had spent a lot of time outside during the day in the middle of massachusetts . It seemed like every year he was with us there was less coat, better food and the only time he was outside was when he was doing something.

[Liz P]

Genetics can affect undercoat as well. I have littermate brothers who are in identical living conditions. One has twice the undercoat of the other (and was a much fluffier pup). They both get much more undercoat when it's colder and they spend more time outside, but no matter the weather, one always has more.