What has color got to do with it?

[Kian's Mom]

I have went back an read may different topics. There have been references to the candy coated dogs. Which I'm assuming is the blue and lilacs. Not to upset anyone but when I see a merle I automatically think of an Assuie. I had to be different and didn't want the traditional black, so I got red. In reading something ( sorry don't remember ) the old herders only wanted the black, and most of the herding dogs you see are black/white. Why is that? Can't any other color be just as good? Just wondering. Trying get more education.

[Smalahundur]

The thing is color is irrelevant, and should not be used as a selecting factor in breeding.

You choose your dog because of its color, this is not something one would do if looking for a working stock dog.

The classic black/white coloring is most common in the population, so chances are that the dog you like (because of his working ability/potential) has that color.

So most people on this board would answer "color hasn´t got anything to do with it".

[ejano]

I have went back an read may different topics. There have been references to the candy coated dogs. Which I'm assuming is the blue and lilacs. Not to upset anyone but when I see a merle I automatically think of an Assuie. I had to be different and didn't want the traditional black, so I got red. In reading something ( sorry don't remember ) the old herders only wanted the black, and most of the herding dogs you see are black/white. Why is that? Can't any other color be just as good? Just wondering. Trying get more education.

Merles and reds are also considered "candy coated" if they are bred for their color first. If your primary criteria for choosing a pup is for color then you may be overlooking more important factors, including health, personality, and aptitude for what you want the dog to do. It's what is inside the dog that counts first - the breeding and the dog's personality and aptitude. I don't think physical appearance is irrelevent - you have to like the dog after all, and the way it looks is part of the package. It just isn't the whole package.

 

We chose a red tri puppy from a litter out of working stock, health-checked parents who were not bred for color. He was a large boned male with a heavier coat and very pushy even as a tiny pup - all things I liked about him. I wasn't all that attracted to his red coat color at first - especially those gold eyebrows! - but it was clear that he was meant to be mine and now I can't imagine life without my Red Dog because of what is inside him. He has become everything I had hoped for. He has a solid, even temper and a strong work ethic, a powerful but biddable personality and he has become a larger boned dog with a heavier coat. Because of his size, he's not the speediest dog in the pack but he's fast enough and he'll work all day. We are becoming real partners.

 

So the answer, in hindsight, is to decide what you want out of the dog, find a good breeder, then if there is more than one pup that meets your needs, pick the one you like the best.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

My dogs didn't chose me because of my color and I won't do the same to them. Color has NOTHING to do with the working ability.

Working ability has to do with working ability. Color is the wrong path to go down.

If a breeder touts "color" as one of the selling points, then go elsewhere.

[Debbie Meier]

I think the best way to describe it, because you said you are into horses, if you want a top kick ass cutting horse what color is it likely to be? Sorrel. If you want a top cutter of any other color you best find the breeder that has top of line cutters that also has that color and produces it with consistency. If you were to buy from someone with the color you like that just dinks around locally who has horses that never make it to the big show odds are the horse you buy regardless of the color won't make it.

 

Same with dogs, there are few breeders that are breeding for the candy colors that are also consistently producing top of the line workings dogs in that off the beaten path color. Now there are some that say they do, but a breeder that shows at the NCHA cutting horse and wins at the top typically does not have the same type of horse as the breeder that wins high point at the local ranch horse shows in the cutting class. But the local ranch horse winner will promote their horses accomplishments just the same.

[Kian's Mom]

I was told long ago that a GSD that was white was killed because of it color. Like I said somewhere the old herders only wanted the black/white. I just wondered why that was and yes most cutting horses are either sorrel or chestnut. Which I have one of each and they are out of cutting stock. I'm not getting another pup at least not right now want to spend quality time with the one I have. Just wondering.

[Debbie Meier]

there are stories that the shepherd's didn't like this color or that, but the fact remains that most of the other colors are recessive or are known to have other defects that are related to the color so it really did not improve the odds of the other colors gaining foothold unless someone really fancied the color, and honestly it's really tough to maintain intense selection pressure on working ability and then select for color too.

[geonni banner]

If you go to a sheepdog trial you may see a couple of reds or red tricolors, you might even see a merle. But most of the dogs you will see will be black and white, with or without tan points.

 

One thing is certain. The folks there won't be looking at the dog's coat. They'll be looking at its work. While it's true that there were (and still are) some folks that avoid dogs of a certain color - like those that say, "the sheep won't work for a white dog," - There is a reason that you will hear people growl about "those candy-colored dogs." The reason is that there are breeders who have coat color high on their list for breeding, and virtually without exception they do not breed dogs for stock work. Mostly they breed for sports or the pet market - people who just want an unusual or flashy dog.

 

Why, you may ask, is that a problem? It is a problem because the minute you choose anything but working ability as a priority in picking which dogs you breed, you will begin to lose working ability. Working ability is a fine balance of many traits like stock sense, endurance, biddability, intelligence and more. So complex is the balance of these traits that if, for even one generation, you don't choose a dog and a bitch that will complement each other with regard to a balancing of these factors, the puppies produced will not equal, and will likely fall below their parents as working dogs. In a few more generations the working ability can be lost altogether. You may see a glimmer of it here and there, but even those who show some talent will probably not pass it on to their pups.

 

So color is not a consideration when breeding stock dogs. The Border Collie is the finest stock dog ever created. People's livelihoods depend upon top-quality working dogs. If this ability is not jealously guarded and lovingly preserved it will disappear. Color has no importance.

 

When you see a kennel selling mostly merle or other exotic colored dogs it is clear that their first priority is not working ability - no matter what they claim. This is because the vast majority of working Border Collies are black and white. Not because the color is sought after, but because historically, it is the most common color by far in quality working dogs.

 

If you have a lilac merle that is bright, sweet and gets around an agility course like greased lightning, and doesn't know one end of a sheep from the other, you will have a lovely dog, and you may be justifiably proud of it. But in the eyes of those of us that see the Border Collie as the best at what it was created for - stock work - you will not have a Border Collie; you'll just have a nice,pretty dog.

[Christina]

If you have a lilac merle that is bright, sweet and gets around an agility course like greased lightning, and doesn't know one end of a sheep from the other, you will have a lovely dog, and you may be justifiably proud of it. But in the eyes of those of us that see the Border Collie as the best at what it was created for - stock work - you will not have a Border Collie; you'll just have a nice,pretty dog.

 

I don't understand why there is so much contempt towards people who breed for color. Fine- they aren't producing great working dogs. But aren't there working breeders for that? So you have sport-bred Border Collies and conformation-bred Border Collies, and working-bred Border Collies. The breed, like most other working breeds, has a divide. Big deal?

[Gideon's girl]

Have you not noticed how many breeds have been ruined because people have been breeding willy nilly with no respect for what the dogs was bred to do. Border Collies are the great dogs that we know and love specifically because they were bred to herd sheep, use their own head to solve problems, etc. They are a whole package. They are not a look or a color. But when people breed them for other purposes, they cease to be what the Border Collie is supposed to be. It doesn't even take 2 generations to lose herding ability and good sense, and gain hyperactivity and OCD.

[toney]

Never mind.

[geonni banner]

 

I don't understand why there is so much contempt towards people who breed for color. Fine- they aren't producing great working dogs. But aren't there working breeders for that? So you have sport-bred Border Collies and conformation-bred Border Collies, and working-bred Border Collies. The breed, like most other working breeds, has a divide. Big deal?

It is a big deal.

 

Apart form the fact that rescues are brimfull of bright, beautiful Border Collies, many of which would make great candidates for agility, flyball, frisbee, obedience, freestyle or any other sport - and would be great companion dogs - every litter of puppies put on the ground with only lip-service paid to their working ability serves to dilute the gene pool of the breed as a whole with dogs who don't have what it takes to do stockwork.

 

So you don't want to do stock work? Fine - but remember, all those traits that make the Border Collie the agility dog par excellence, and a serious contender for probably the smartest dog on the planet were produced by creating the finest sheepdog on the planet. It is a very finely balanced set of traits. There is no room for prioritizing coat color, coat texture or abundance, or ear set. Tweaking the temperament for a dog with more "rev" for the agility course or flyball lane will unbalance the package as well.

 

If you want a real Border Collie of a non-standard color, you can wait until one occurs. Good luck with that... Or you can go find some other dog that commonly comes in that color. If the color is that important to you, I submit that maybe the dog inside the skin might not be. Worth thinking about anyway...

 

Oh and yeah, I know, on the other side of the pond things are different - the two subsets exist quite happily side by side. But you must remember; unlike here in the US, if you drive for 15 minutes outside a major city in Britain you will likely encounter sheep farms. People in the UK are well aware of the Border-Collie-as-sheepdog. There are sheepdog trials on TV regularly. In this country, if you say "Border Collie" the average non-farming/ranching person will picture a clunky, Golden Retriever in a fur coat flouncing around a show ring. They will say, "Oh yeah, those smart crazy dogs." A few more will picture them on agility courses, and some will have a dim notion that they used to be sheep dogs, though they will have little idea of what that entails.

[Christina]

It is a big deal.

 

Apart form the fact that rescues are brimfull of bright, beautiful Border Collies, many of which would make great candidates for agility, flyball, frisbee, obedience, freestyle or any other sport - and would be great companion dogs - every litter of puppies put on the ground with only lip-service paid to their working ability serves to dilute the gene pool of the breed as a whole with dogs who don't have what it takes to do stockwork.

 

So you don't want to do stock work? Fine - but remember, all those traits that make the Border Collie the agility dog par excellence, and a serious contender for probably the smartest dog on the planet were produced by creating the finest sheepdog on the planet. It is a very finely balanced set of traits. There is no room for prioritizing coat color, coat texture or abundance, or ear set. Tweaking the temperament for a dog with more "rev" for the agility course or flyball lane will unbalance the package as well.

 

If you want a real Border Collie of a non-standard color, you can wait until one occurs. Good luck with that... Or you can go find some other dog that commonly comes in that color. If the color is that important to you, I submit that maybe the dog inside the skin might not be. Worth thinking about anyway...

 

Oh and yeah, I know, on the other side of the pond things are different - the two subsets exist quite happily side by side. But you must remember; unlike here in the US, if you drive for 15 minutes outside a major city in Britain you will likely encounter sheep farms. People in the UK are well aware of the Border-Collie-as-sheepdog. There are sheepdog trials on TV regularly. In this country, if you say "Border Collie" the average non-farming/ranching person will picture a clunky, Golden Retriever in a fur coat flouncing around a show ring. They will say, "Oh yeah, those smart crazy dogs." A few more will picture them on agility courses, and some will have a dim notion that they used to be sheep dogs, though they will have little idea of what that entails.

 

 

Dilute the gene pool- great fine, but there are still working breeders who breed working dogs and there always will be. But if rescues are "brimful of bright, beautiful Border Collies [of any color]" why did it take me months and months to find a red Border Collie in a rescue that I had to have transported from Georgia to Connecticut because I couldn't find any in my area? Not everybody wants to rescue and not everybody wants a black and white stockdog. There is nothing wrong with knowing what you want. If somebody wants to select a dog for color, who am I to tell them they should do any differently? Who are you to tell them that they don't care as much about their dog because they are looking for a trait that you consider unimportant?

 

Would I personally purchase from anyone except a working breeder? No. But that doesn't mean I should be telling other people what to do.

[Liz P]

 

 

Dilute the gene pool- great fine, but there are still working breeders who breed working dogs and there always will be. But if rescues are "brimful of bright, beautiful Border Collies [of any color]" why did it take me months and months to find a red Border Collie in a rescue that I had to have transported from Georgia to Connecticut because I couldn't find any in my area?

 

 

Because you weren't patient enough. We get red dogs in rescue fairly often. A dog is a 10 to 15 year commitment. Waiting an extra 6 months or a year to get the right match for your family is well worth it.

 

People buying a pup who want just the right dog often wait years for a cross to be made. People also search the globe. I drove several thousand miles round trip to get my special puppy. It's no different when searching for a rescue dog. Being patient pays off in the end.

[Christina]

 

 

Because you weren't patient enough. We get red dogs in rescue fairly often. A dog is a 10 to 15 year commitment. Waiting an extra 6 months or a year to get the right match for your family is well worth it.

 

People buying a pup who want just the right dog often wait years for a cross to be made. People also search the globe. I drove several thousand miles round trip to get my specthrowing other traits out the window uppy. It's no different when searching for a rescue dog. Being patient pays off in the end.

I just said I waited months and months for one and searched until I found the right red dog for me. How is that not being patient?

 

And what do the colorful dogs in rescue have to do with colorful dogs from a breeder? What if somebody wants a lilac Border Collie with a known history? I'm getting the message that it isn't okay to select a dog from a breeder with color as a factor but it is okay to wait forever for a specifically colored rescue dog. That doesn't make any sense. You can't say that people who want a specific color from a breeder only care about color and are throwing other traits away but people who want a specific color from a rescue just need to be patient because one will turn up.

[Smalahundur]

I just said I waited months and months for one and searched until I found the right red dog for me. How is that not being patient?

Maybe you should have searched for the right dog, instead of the right red dog...

I really have a hard time understanding this color preference thing. Does it have to match your sofa or something like that?

[rushdoggie]

Maybe you should have searched for the right dog, instead of the right red dog...

I really have a hard time understanding this color preference thing. Does it have to match your sofa or something like that?

 

I guess if you find it important to wait for a color thats your choice, but I guess I can't understand why you would.

 

I also have Papillons and much prefer the look of B/W and black tri and I currently have 2 sable dogs, because they worked out the be the best dogs for me. None of my Tshirts match...

[Eileen Stein]

What if somebody wants a lilac Border Collie with a known history? I'm getting the message that it isn't okay to select a dog from a breeder with color as a factor but it is okay to wait forever for a specifically colored rescue dog. That doesn't make any sense.

 

Sure it does. Buying a lilac border collie from a color breeder encourages and rewards that breeder for breeding for color. Getting a lilac border collie from rescue does not -- it just gives a home to a dog who through no fault of its own was bred for the wrong reasons. Nobody's saying its good to want a lilac border collie, whether from rescue OR from a breeder. I think most of us think its pretty loony, when there are so much more important criteria by which to value a dog than an exotic color. But if you DO want a lilac border collie, getting one from rescue does no harm, whereas rewarding breeders who breed for lilac does.

 

You ask, who am I to be telling people what to do? The answer is, I'm someone who cares deeply about the breed and its future. For that reason, I tell people about health testing, about humane treatment, and about preservation of the breed's defining traits. They don't have to listen, and many of them won't, but that doesn't mean I have no right to advocate for something that is so important both to me and to the many others who value the traditional border collie, bred for work.

[geonni banner]

Christina says:

"Dilute the gene pool- great fine, but there are still working breeders who breed working dogs and there always will be."

 

doG, I hope you're right, but don't take it as a given. The Border Collie is an AKC breed now... How many German Shepherd Dogs are there bred in this country that can do the work they were developed for?

 

"But if rescues are "brimful of bright, beautiful Border Collies [of any color]" why did it take me months and months to find a red Border Collie in a rescue that I had to have transported from Georgia to Connecticut because I couldn't find any in my area?"

 

I never said "of any color." But I have seen a lot of candy-colored dogs in the rescue threads here. I guess being that special color wasn't enough for those dogs...

 

Not everybody wants to rescue and not everybody wants a black and white stockdog. There is nothing wrong with knowing what you want. If somebody wants to select a dog for color, who am I to tell them they should do any differently? Who are you to tell them that they don't care as much about their dog because they are looking for a trait that you consider unimportant?

 

There is truly nothing wrong with knowing what you want. It's a fine quality. Almost as fine as knowing that what you want is not necessarily the best thing for you - or for the thing you want - or the thing you rejected because it wasn't wrapped in the right wrapper.

[Gloria Atwater]

Sticking a toe in the fire, here ...

 

I don't understand why there is so much contempt towards people who breed for color. Fine- they aren't producing great working dogs. But aren't there working breeders for that? So you have sport-bred Border Collies and conformation-bred Border Collies, and working-bred Border Collies. The breed, like most other working breeds, has a divide. Big deal?

 

Yes. Big deal. Because one only has to look at dogs like Irish setters and Australian shepherds to see how far a breed can stray from its origins, if selected away from the purpose for which they were developed and revered. The Irish setter can't hunt, and one has to hunt to find Aussies that aren't show-bred beauty queens who have to be obedience-trained around an ASCA course, because their natural work instinct is too often bred right out of them.

So, you have sport-bred and conformation bred black-and-white dogs, who may have come from Border Collie origins, but they are no longer capable of doing what border collies should do. And the thing I keep coming around to is this:

What is the point of breeding Border Collies if they cannot work livestock?

Of course, not all border collies are top trial dogs. Not all border collies even work. Border collies like people come with all levels of skill, aptitude, drive, ambition and instinct. But that's why not all border collies should be bred. It's enough work to compare and think and plot and plan for a breeding that will hopefully - maybe - bring out working attributes that the breeder most desires. Even mating the most promising sire and dam does not guarantee the working qualities one may hope for, in the pups. Genetics are brain-spraining.

So, why on earth dilute the working ability, which was developed over centuries of selective breeding, by putting that work instinct off as a second or third or fourth consideration for a breeding program? If it can't work, it's no longer a border collie. It's just a pretty black-and-white dog.

I've seen AKC-bred border collies that nearly made me weep. They can't get around sheep on their own. They can only work mechanically. OR they don't work at all.

Why take a dog .... and turn it into something it's not? That's not evolution. That's ruination. That's like breeding horses who can't run or birds that can no longer fly.

Have you not noticed how many breeds have been ruined because people have been breeding willy nilly with no respect for what the dogs was bred to do. Border Collies are the great dogs that we know and love specifically because they were bred to herd sheep, use their own head to solve problems, etc. They are a whole package. They are not a look or a color. But when people breed them for other purposes, they cease to be what the Border Collie is supposed to be. It doesn't even take 2 generations to lose herding ability and good sense, and gain hyperactivity and OCD.

Exactly. If one does not select FOR the work instinct, one loses it.

Yes, breeding for color is a big deal. Because to get lilac or merle or whatever other color, selectively and over many generations, one must deliberately overlook and ignore considerations one would otherwise make, if breeding for working skills, alone. Those colors are recessive: they disappear and go back to plain old black-and-white, if one is breeding for work only. Therefore you can't have a color breeding program, and make color the center of that program, and not overlook and omit other things.

But all this has been said before, including by me. In sum, anyone who breeds border collies for color is doing the breed a grave disservice, by diluting and bastardizing the border collie.

Respectfully submitted,

Gloria

[Christina]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not willing to condemn somebody for thinking differently than I do. Perhaps the sport and conformation breeders don't care about the dog's working ability (they don't). That's fine as long as we have working breeders to preserve the true Border Collie. Live and let live.

[Eileen Stein]

I'm not willing to condemn somebody for thinking differently than I do.

Oh, I bet you are. (Hint: think "animal rights community")

 

You're just not willing to condemn people for thinking the same as you do (i.e., breeding for color is okay), or who think differently on subjects you can't see as having any importance.

 

So okay, let's agree to disagree.

[mum24dog]

 

I don't understand why there is so much contempt towards people who breed for color.

 

It goes further than that - there is contempt for anyone who breeds any type of dog for what it looks like as opposed to what it can do. That's how we got where we are with the train wrecks of breeds that not only can't work, they often can't even enjoy a normal healthy lifespan as a pet.

 

That's where putting superficial considerations like appearance gets the poor dog.

 

We're all human and will have our aesthetic preferences but dogs aren't a fashion statement and they don't exist to big up our egos by having something "different". If you like a certain appearance and you find the perfect dog for you that also happens to fit that picture great, but don't go searching for a dog that looks like your mental image if appearance is going to have an undue influence on your ultimate choice. Many a huge mistake has been made that way.

 

Whatever your breed or whatever your needs in a dog you may know a breeder who produces healthy dogs that are fit for purpose, whether it be work, sport, service or pet, and their lines may throw up a higher percentage than average of dogs whose appearance pleases you. By all means favour that breeder, but once they take their eye off the ball and start concentrating on coat colour the rot inevitably sets in so you would need to keep an eye on them if you wanted to buy from them again.

 

I can think of more than one breeder who has gone from having a reputation of producing really nice dogs to "wouldn't touch with a barge pole" in some quarters in only a few years for just that reason.

 

There's too much "I want and hang the consequences" nowadays.

[SS Cressa]

I think the issue with breeding for colors is you are limiting your gene selection. Instead of breeding to the best dog suited for yours. You are now limiting your selection even father.

 

Idk what you do with your border collies. I do sports And just getting into herding.

 

If I had a red/white sport collie who I wanted to breed. As a sport breeder you need to look at structure, temperament, drive, work ethics, and previous offspring. You need to find a boy who is the best compliment to your girl. While there might be a lot of boys out there not all will suit your needs. Good chance there will only be a handful who are what you are looking for. If you only want to breed for red/whites. You will now be even narrowing your Choices down even father. How many red/white non-neuter border collies do you know in agility? How many perform to your standards?

Instead of looking for the best match for your girl in the breed. You are now narrowing your selection of stud. The best red/white boy might not be the best boy for your girl. Instead of producing an great sport dog. You can come away with the so-so color sport dog.

 

I guess in border collies for me. Color is my last concern. Color happens if you plan for it or not. I know a black/white boy who comes from black/white parents and he throws bridles and some really pretty but weird colors.

I know a black/tri bred to a black/white who threw All the color: black tris, black/white, red tris, red/white, and dilutes.

Or a black/white bred to a blue/tri merle who also got all the colors but merles.

 

On the slip side I know of a blue merle bred to a red/white who produced All black/white pups.

Or a red/white bred to a black/tri making all black/white pups

Lol the list can go on and on...

[Christina]

Oh, I bet you are. (Hint: think "animal rights community")

 

You're just not willing to condemn people who think the same as you do (i.e., breeding for color is okay), or who think differently on subjects you can't see as having any importance.

 

So okay, let's agree to disagree.

 

My problem with the animal rights community is that they attack others far more than they are ever attacked. They show the same intolerance for a different belief that you all are showing here.