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How do you feel about banning a breed?


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I think bully breeds are a problem. They have been bred to fight for hundreds of years. Like a border collie herds, fighting is bred into their genetics. You can't change that. Selective breeding has made them what they are today.

 

One of the many things that bother me is all the rescues labeling them as lab mixes when it clear from the pictures they are bully mixes. Then you have the nanny moms, who think all of them should be saved and can be placed in any home. In my opinion this is a dangerous strategy.

 

I don't know what the answer is. I do know I do not trust the breed. I do not want them around me, my children, grand children or my dogs. But that's just me.

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I am not one bit afraid to admit that some of the bully breeds scare me. One of my customers lives in a kind of not very good neighborhood. Her neighbor had a robbery - school kids that broke into the basement. So they got this guard do that I think is probably a cane corso. I'm afraid of it. It's very agressive and the owners have no idea how to control it.

 

It looks like a bully breed but it's bigger than a pit. It's really a pretty big dog. And it's ears are cropped way down. Scary looking.

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Those are indeed scary dogs and they have killed people. I never trust them. I think they were responsible for the woman who was mauled to death in her apartment hallway in CA.

If I remember correctly those were presa canario's.

 

My friend has a female cane corso and it is a lovely dog-lives with two other dogs, a cat, a toddler and a 6month old. She is on the smaller side for the breed but has a wonderful temperament. Very protective though of her house, stranger comes to the door and she looks scary. My friend likes that though and doesn't try to change the behavior.

 

I have met countless pit bulls at work and can only think of one that was questionable with people. The rest were big softies that were more afraid of their bath than anything else, honestly just sweet dogs. Most though, have been dog aggressive and can't be in daycare or their owners warn us that they are reactive.

 

Boston terriers are a breed that I haven't met many nice ones, most have been dog aggressive (latching on and not letting go until being ripped off) and 'bitey' with people. They seem to get easily set off by excitement.

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Our local shelter labeled a couple pit mixes as terrier mixes and then adopted them out to this lady and her mother, who is afraid of pits..It was obvious to everyone at the vets office that they were pit mixes, but the lady just kept saying "No, they're terriers!!!" I finally opened my big mouth and said "Yes, pit bull terriers. They didn't lie to you." They were 8 week old puppies that weighed 8 lbs and they expected them to only weigh about 14 lbs full grown. They had wanted a couple of small dogs.

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Not sure if any of you know about this website, DogsBite.org but it is pretty much pro BSL. But I find it interesting for a few reasons. Loads of statistics and they put a face and background on all the bully attacks and deaths.

 

Another resource I read is the Border Wars Blog, a lot of things about BC's, mostly genetics, and some other breeds. Not too long ago there was a blog about PB's, the comments are very interesting and most come from sound scientific background. You might want to take a peek at the blog about PB's.. if for no other reason to broaden your horizons. This blog is definitely not for everyone but he is candid and calls them as he sees it. Note his blog about conformation breeding or his blog featuring the AKC, and it isn't pretty.

 

And if you are really game, their are even PB enthusiasts, AND THE ASPCA, that claim PB's herd on farms. These videos will debunk that myth. .

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I met a Cane Corso at a public dog activity one day. Huge dog, ears cropped almost to the skull, a beautiful animal. And neither myself nor my dogs was comfortable anywhere around it. It had a very still, very cool way of staring at the other dogs that just totally discomforted us.

 

Maybe I was just projecting my prejudices on that dog that day, but there wasn't a dog or a person present that would have stood a chance if it had decided to get "protective" or aggressive. That stare was pretty intimidating. And he readily outweighed the person on the end of his leash.

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I don't believe in BSLs either but there is a problem with the number of pit bulls and pit bull types in shelters in my neck of the woods, it's the primary reason so many dogs come from the south, it's hard to get a cute mutt.

My own local shelter has been rebranding pit bull types since I got my first dog 18 years ago and it does no one adopter or dog any service. A new dog owner things they have a lab mutt but really it's a bully breed and so have no idea how the dog should be handled or that many are not dog friendly and it's usually first time owners who fall for the fake labelling.

On a personal note I have never met a bad pit, they all have seemed friendly and nice BUT they do piss of my border collies with their physical idea of play.

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I think bully breeds are a problem. They have been bred to fight for hundreds of years. Like a border collie herds, fighting is bred into their genetics. You can't change that. Selective breeding has made them what they are today.

 

One of the many things that bother me is all the rescues labeling them as lab mixes when it clear from the pictures they are bully mixes. Then you have the nanny moms, who think all of them should be saved and can be placed in any home. In my opinion this is a dangerous strategy.

 

I don't know what the answer is. I do know I do not trust the breed. I do not want them around me, my children, grand children or my dogs. But that's just me.

 

What breed are you talking about?

 

There is no breed called a "bull breed".

 

As geonni banner said

 

 

Sure, "grab and hold" is a lot less complicated package of behaviors than that of a top-notch stock dog, but it was achieved by selective breeding and can quickly be dismantled by same.

 

It's already happening in some Bully breeds. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is already pretty much a pussy-cat, and many lines of the "Am Staff" are as well.

 

All breeds have the potential to cause damage and individuals within those breeds have that potential to a greater or lesser extent.

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Chianne, I would caution against believing anything you read on the border wars blog. It is run by a guy who came onto these Boards several years ago, calling himself Destructo, and bent on wreaking havoc. He knew nothing about border collies but managed to sound very authoritative, because wow, he went to Stanford and had had two border collies in the family when he was a kid. I do not read the blog (mainly because he is exasperating in his ignorance but also because I don't want to give him the hits), but have had posts from it sent to me by others, and while I've never seen anything he's written on pit bulls, the things he posts about border collies (and Alaskan huskies) are definitely suspect and frequently flat-out wrong. He recently participated in leading an attack on Denise Wall, who has more knowledge in her little finger -- scientific and otherwise -- about border collies than he will ever have, and who has done more for the breed than 99% of real border collie people, whereas he has done zero. He and one or two of his pals totally misrepresented her article on hip dysplasia in the border collie -- an article I used to cite repeatedly because of its high quality -- to the point where she took down her whole website (including other valuable articles on border collie health and genetics) because she was receiving more vilification from his followers than she could deal with. A great loss.

 

Sorry for the OT, but new people are coming along all the time, and I think it's worth saying. I sincerely hope saying it doesn't lead to everybody rushing to his site to check it out, and thereby giving it undeserved prominence on the search engines, but it still needs saying.

 

On the subject of pit bulls, I think it's undeniable that BSL leads directly to the misrepresentation of pit bulls by shelters and rescues. It's cause and effect, especially because there's little way to know what's a "pit bull" and what isn't. I recently took a rescue dog up from the south for placement that was described by the rescue as a border collie mix. Well, it was black and white, but when it arrived it sure looked to me like a pit bull mix. Unsuitable for the home I had in mind, but she was a sweet dog and I did find a good home for her. Since the MD Court of Appeals had recently gone nuts and ruled that pit bulls and pit bull mixes are "inherently dangerous," the dog could never have been placed if she didn't have that "border collie mix" label. (The Court has since taken back the "mix" part of their bizarre decision.)

 

Also, if you're going to go by what's said on internet sites about pit bulls, it would be good to take a look at www.badrap.org for balance.

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One of the dogs I take care of was labeled a pharoh hound cross by the shelter. I would bet that she is probably 50% pit. It doesn't matter. She is very sweet and I love taking care of her.

 

I take care of another dog that was called a Chappequidick (sp) Bay Retriever by the shelter. He is mostly chow.

 

Shelters give the dogs exotic names like that so people won't be afraid to adopt them. It works.

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Liz: That dog that killed the woman in Ca was a presa canario. They look like bully breed dogs but they are another one that is really dangerous. I just looked those two breeds up the other day and they both just look like great big pit bulls. And they both had ears cropped way down. There are all kinds of warnings about them - about them needing a very strong willed owner that can control them.

 

That is terrible about Denise. That is one big problem with the internet. People just assume because it's in print out there that it's correct. Big mistake. Anyone can put out anything.

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This type of dog was developed to be dog/animal agressive NOT human agressive. One has to wonder if the public health/safety concerns about this type of dog are due to dogs being produced with unbalanced instincts (genes) now that the breeding standards are no longer based upon the function for which the breed was developed. This would be no different than the unbalanced Border Collies being produced when the breeding standard is not for livestock work.

 

RE: border wars website

I am reminded of the State Farm commercial....."If it's on the internet it must be true".

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Thank you, Eileen and Mark, for bringing up some warnings about the Border Wars blog. There is occasional good material there but there is an awful lot of what is personal opinion and private agenda. I don't go there to learn anything. There are much better sources.

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Thank you, Eileen and Mark, for bringing up some warnings about the Border Wars blog. There is occasional good material there but there is an awful lot of what is personal opinion and private agenda. I don't go there to learn anything. There are much better sources.

 

Agreed, the posts and comments are unprofessional and full of name calling and personal attacks. I assume anyone who can't defend his position without calling people names is not someone for whom I would defer as an "authority" on any subject, no matter how interesting some of his articles might be. His sporting dog buddy is no different.

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I have not been on the border wars page for eons only checked it out, realized fast he had some strange agenda I did not fully understand and never went back, but curiosity took me over there and I was surprised how nasty the tone has become, before he just had an opinion, now he he has become downright nasty... a bit like some highly paid political talking heads, nasty just

to stir the pot.

Terrierman is an entirely different blog...

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Patrick knows what he is talking about when it come to working dogs (from doing not reading about it); can one say that about the other two?.

 

 

I expect he does, but it would still be unwise to assume that he is equally well informed about other subjects he pronounces on with such forceful authority.

 

Sometimes he seems to be, sometimes he exhibits ill informed prejudice in a very personal manner.

 

It's a shame really as his blog often contains much to think about.

 

Danger of the internet again.

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I had no idea about Border Wars. Thanks for the input.

 

I do not like Bully Breeds. I mean all the bully breeds from pits to staffies. I was bitten on my hands. arms and ankle requiring 3 skin graphs and weeks in the hospital. I was training one in a class. It was with it's owners, I turned my back to walk away and it attacked and would not quit, Completely unprovoked. It was a rescue and clearly has some issues.

 

In training dogs I find the most aggressive and the ones with the most issues of are pit mix rescues.

 

Admittedly I am bias. I would never want one around me ever again or my dogs.

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I expect he does, but it would still be unwise to assume that he is equally well informed about other subjects he pronounces on with such forceful authority.

 

Sometimes he seems to be, sometimes he exhibits ill informed prejudice in a very personal manner.

 

It's a shame really as his blog often contains much to think about.

 

Danger of the internet again.

While I do not always agree with his opinions he typically provides facts (and links) upon which he has based his opinions.

 

His writing style is very blunt spending little time coddling readers who have not questioned or thought through their beliefs. He has little patience for those who just regurgitate what they have read on the internet and unquestioningly accepted as fact.

 

Like most blogs, he has agendas and opinions that he is trying to voice to others; like most opinions on the internet one must look at the facts provided supporting those opinions and critically evaluate those opinions. If the authors do not provide supporting facts one can use that to evaluate the opinions presented.

 

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