Confused what just happened to my BC pup... HELP !

[shadow]

Hi,

 

So we have a 5.5 month old BC male puppy. We got him when he was 3 months old, its been not too long. He trains great, as in tricks, commands etc, BUt he has a mind of his own. He was doing great, until last week, he has sexually matured and his neutering is scheduled for right when he turns 6 months. But recently he has developed few issues that have me concerned

 

• He used to walk on a loose leash until last week, till I don’t know what happened this week that he has just forgotten it all. since he has seen the rabbits in the neighborhood... Loose leash walking is non-existent.

 

• He didn’t want to chase cars or get hyper when he saw cars, but we took him herding this weekend and that has changed his attitude towards a moving car. At training at prong collar was put on him, by the trainer & was not an all pleasant experience. - This was written previously which was edited - "The herding trainer was not good, and he didn’t have a good experience.She put him on a prong collar, he cried, she smacked him with a rake - no he wasnt harming the cattle - she just has issues with the breeder we got him from"

 

• He does great in a controlled environment with his commands (like home, training center etc), but the minute we are out on a walk or dog park, yes he will sit on command, but he is not focused on me. Its almost that I don’t exist in the outside world. Once we just left him at the dog park and walked away and he didn’t care, he kept getting a ball giving it to someone else to throw.

 

 

I have tried to go back to teaching him on a loose leash, tried to calm him, nothing has worked. I have used a squirt bottle to get his attention and get him to stop that does work for that very second, but I don’t want to over-use it.

 

Please HELP and suggest what I may do, I have a "dog behaviorist" here in the city but he charges $350

 

Thank you in advance !!

[Northof49]

He's a five and half month old puppy!!! He's just being a puppy, and for goodness sake, please don't take him back to the herding "trainer".

 

Do you have him in puppy classes that uses positive training methods?

[waffles]

You do not need a behaviorist-you have a very normal 5 month old puppy!

 

Where ever you took him to 'herd', do not ever go back again.

 

Do not use a water bottle to 'get his attention.' Why would he want to pay attention to you when you just squirted him?

 

All of the 'issues' you listed are normal for a pup his age and they will change in time as you continue to train. It sounds like you were off to a great start, just go back to what you were doing (loose leash training, etc). Have patience, he is still so young and you can't expect perfection out of a dog his age. Continue training, stay positive and try not to get overwhelmed or over think the little things.

 

I would recommend as others will, get the Control Unleashed puppy book. Look for a good dog club/training center and enroll in a puppy class.

[shadow]

He's a five and half month old puppy!!! He's just being a puppy, and for goodness sake, please don't take him back to the herding "trainer".

 

Do you have him in puppy classes that uses positive training methods?

 

 

I know he is just being a puppy, but then some people confuse me saying he has no respect for us, he does not know who is the pack leader etc... all this all of a sudden feels very overwhelming !

 

Yes he is awesome in his obedience classes, is taking his cgc this weekend, learns new tricks and has so much fun learning all that, he learnt high five in like 10-15 mins

[shadow]

You do not need a behaviorist-you have a very normal 5 month old puppy!

 

Where ever you took him to 'herd', do not ever go back again.

 

Do not use a water bottle to 'get his attention.' Why would he want to pay attention to you when you just squirted him?

 

All of the 'issues' you listed are normal for a pup his age and they will change in time as you continue to train. It sounds like you were off to a great start, just go back to what you were doing (loose leash training, etc). Have patience, he is still so young and you can't expect perfection out of a dog his age. Continue training, stay positive and try not to get overwhelmed or over think the little things.

 

I would recommend as others will, get the Control Unleashed puppy book. Look for a good dog club/training center and enroll in a puppy class.

 

THANK YOU, I guess I needed some guidance & assurance that what we were doing was the right thing. Someone suggested a choke chain, someone says oh this breed is so smart you gotta break him in this age. Then people like the stupid trainer who has 17 border collies looked at me and almost said I had no business getting a BC if this was my second dog ever.... I just dont want this puppy ruined, he is a great guy!!

[gcv-border]

A couple of things may be happening all at once:

He is approaching his terrible teenage years - when all pups begin to test the boundaries.

 

You are no longer the center of his universe so you will have to work harder to keep his focus. He is beginning to discover that there is a wonderful and interesting world out there - and that is normal.

 

His issues are common for a BC and/or a young dog. I don't think you need a dog behaviorist.

 

First, I would NEVER take him back to that trainer. I don't understand how that "trainer" (I use that term loosely) can keep clients. Personally, I would wait several months before trying him again on sheep to try and help that traumatic experience recede from his mind. And use a different trainer!! I will be interested to hear the advice from experienced handlers.

 

You have given him a good foundation of training, but now you will have to re-train since his teenage brain has forgotten his good manners -- and this is normal.

 

Go back to the basics. Train in an environment with NO distractions (in the house?). Then gradually add in distractions. Bringing him to a dog park and expecting him to listen to you is not going to happen because you have added in wayyy too many distractions that he can't control his responses - remember, he is still a puppy. After working him in the house, the next step might be working him out in your yard where there are fewer distractions? and he is familiar with the yard. If he starts losing focus again, bring him back into a less distracting environment where he is under threshold and ask him for a few familiar behaviors and reward him to reconnect with him.

 

A squirt bottle will do nothing more than distract him momentarily (as you have discovered) and may eventually end up aggravating him. Distract him (but not with a squirt bottle), and when he looks at you, ask him for a behavior that you know he will do and treat him for it. I will distract with a slight tug on his collar or a little touch on his hind end or shoulder. If he can not perform that behavior and refocuses on the distraction, he may be over threshold and you will need to move him farther away. Once you distract, remember you MUST let your dog know what is an acceptable behavior, don't just let him hang out there. Help him make the right choice.

 

Jovi

[shadow]

A couple of things may be happening all at once:

He is approaching his terrible teenage years - when all pups begin to test the boundaries.

 

You are no longer the center of his universe so you will have to work harder to keep his focus. He is beginning to discover that there is a wonderful and interesting world out there - and that is normal.

 

His issues are common for a BC and/or a young dog. I don't think you need a dog behaviorist.

 

First, I would NEVER take him back to that trainer. I don't understand how that "trainer" (I use that term loosely) can keep clients. Personally, I would wait several months before trying him again on sheep to try and help that traumatic experience recede from his mind. And use a different trainer!! I will be interested to hear the advice from experienced handlers.

 

You have given him a good foundation of training, but now you will have to re-train since his teenage brain has forgotten his good manners -- and this is normal.

 

Go back to the basics. Train in an environment with NO distractions (in the house?). Then gradually add in distractions. Bringing him to a dog park and expecting him to listen to you is not going to happen because you have added in wayyy too many distractions that he can't control his responses - remember, he is still a puppy. After working him in the house, the next step might be working him out in your yard where there are fewer distractions? and he is familiar with the yard. If he starts losing focus again, bring him back into a less distracting environment where he is under threshold and ask him for a few familiar behaviors and reward him to reconnect with him.

 

A squirt bottle will do nothing more than distract him momentarily (as you have discovered) and may eventually end up aggravating him. Distract him (but not with a squirt bottle), and when he looks at you, ask him for a behavior that you know he will do and treat him for it. I will distract with a slight tug on his collar or a little touch on his hind end or shoulder. If he can not perform that behavior and refocuses on the distraction, he may be over threshold and you will need to move him farther away. Once you distract, remember you MUST let your dog know what is an acceptable behavior, don't just let him hang out there. Help him make the right choice.

 

Jovi

 

Thanks Jovi, I will try all of that. I really appreciate the advice. Do you think after he is neutered him being distracted might reduce? Also any suggestion on how I can handle the rabbit situation ? The rabbit comes in the yard & is around his toys, so when this guy goes out and sniffs that the rabbit was there, he is all charged up to just find the rabbit on his walk at night.

[Sekah]

Do you think after he is neutered him being distracted might reduce? Also any suggestion on how I can handle the rabbit situation ? The rabbit comes in the yard & is around his toys, so when this guy goes out and sniffs that the rabbit was there, he is all charged up to just find the rabbit on his walk at night.

 

Honestly, no, neutering won't help the problems you're having with his focus. He's still a baby, and his hormones are barely starting up (he's far from sexually mature) so they're probably not having much of an effect on him. It's just typical puppy growing pains right now.

 

Consider reading Control Unleashed: The Puppy Program by Leslie McDevitt. It has loads of great exercises that you can do with your pup to regain his focus in distracting situations, and can eventually help you work through his rabbit focus.

[WWBC]

I would also consider waiting to neuter him as he is not mature yet by any means.........there is no "magic" date or age to neuter a puppy........where are you located? People here might be able to help you better if they knew where you are located.

[Cynthia P]

You certainly have the right to own a border collie...even if it is your second dog.

 

He sounds like a very normal, unfocused 5 month old... I always think my puppies are trained so well...and than at 6 months they become hellions...And i have 11 border collies!

 

Cynthia

[shadow]

I would also consider waiting to neuter him as he is not mature yet by any means.........there is no "magic" date or age to neuter a puppy........where are you located? People here might be able to help you better if they knew where you are located.

 

I am located in Dallas, TX. He has been marking outside on his walks quite a bit & also mounts his bed. A scary thing happened the other day while he was mounting & had a prolonged erection. So I am not sure if I should wait, also no day care will take him

[shadow]

You certainly have the right to own a border collie...even if it is your second dog.

 

He sounds like a very normal, unfocused 5 month old... I always think my puppies are trained so well...and than at 6 months they become hellions...And i have 11 border collies!

 

Cynthia

 

Thank you means a lot coming from you .... Can I ask, do the herding people just generally have an attitude issue in the border collie world ?

She said Herding was no recreational activity... To me it kinda is for the puppy!

[Jim Kling]

Thank you means a lot coming from you .... Can I ask, do the herding people just generally have an attitude issue in the border collie world ?

She said Herding was no recreational activity... To me it kinda is for the puppy!

 

Please don't judge the herding world by one knucklehead. By the way, most would say that 5 1/2 months is too early to be put on sheep at all, and the trainer should have known that.

[WildFlower]

Thank you means a lot coming from you .... Can I ask, do the herding people just generally have an attitude issue in the border collie world ?

She said Herding was no recreational activity... To me it kinda is for the puppy!

 

From my experience, the "herding world" is full of people who love their dogs, go out of their way to help others, and are all around great people. But we also do take our breed very seriously - as in they should be bred strictly for working ability.

 

A couple of things:

 

1) If you are interested in finding a trainer for your pup when he is a little more appropriately aged (general rule is no "real" training until about 1 year old) find a successful USBCHA open handler to help you. Here's a link to the TX Sheep Dog Association. This would be a good place to start: http://www.texassheepdogassoc.org/

 

2) I *think* what the person meantby "not a recreational activity" is that it is unfair to the livestock if a person and their dog are not serious about learning this craft. "Herding" involves living animals and they deserve to be treated with respect by both the dog, handler, and trainer.

 

Good Luck!

[juliepoudrier]

Any "trainer" starting a youngster in a prong collar is no real trainer. Stay very far away. I will take a pup to sheep at his age, but only to see what they do. They are much too young to take a lot of training pressure, and really any sort of training on stock involves pressure on the pup. If you had a decent trainer and well broke sheep and the pup could just go around the sheep some and change directions on the basis of the human's body pressure, that would be okay, but that doesn't sound at all like your situation. If your only choice is a substandard trainer, then waiting certainly won't harm him. Giving him bad experiences at a young age could, however, turn him off work completely.

 

That said, as trainers, we have to set boundaries on what is acceptable with respect to herding training, because training a young dog does involve a certain amount of stress and distress on stock. So, although the trainer sounds like an idiot, there is some truth in the statement that herding isn't a recreational activity--in that there needs to be some control and correct work from the dog so that the sheep (or other livestock) are not simply being used as "dog toys."

 

That may seem obvious, but I've actually had folks come out for lessons who pretty much equated a trip for lessons to going to the dog park. That is, they looked at it as just another thing their dog could do to burn off steam. I have no wish to work with those sorts of people/dogs because to me they are approaching it as fun and games and not something serious. With most other fun and games, nothing else has the potential to be harmed, but with stockwork, there are the livestock to consider, and they need to be treated with the respect due to sentient beings who don't have a real say in how they're being used. So although I do encourage people to try their dogs on stock and to train them if they so desire, I don't particularly want to work with people/dogs whose attitude is that it's all about the fun. Because it's not necessarily fun for the livestock. (Note: I'm not saying that this is your attitude, but it may well be what the trainer was trying to convey. Hard to believe that they would show sense in that regard when they clearly have no real sense about how to properly start a puppy, but I guess wonders never cease.)

[ETA: I see that Vicki stated the above much more succinctly while I was writing this missive....]

 

As for neutering, I'd wait, unless you have a compelling reason to neuter early (i.e., you must use doggy daycare). It might be helpful to have a good discussion with your vet regarding the pros and cons and your concerns about some of the things your pup is doing. I don't think early neuter will change things like marking behavior, but I would want to know about prolonged erections (though a neutered male can still have an erection, so it might not make a difference in that regard either).

 

As for everything else, you just need to go back to the basics. As others have said, his hormones are starting to flow and he's reaching his adolescent period. He will test you, so you just need to be prepared and be willing to back up and start over when he seems to forget his previous training.

 

J.

[speckle-legged dog]

5 months old was about the time my pup decided that my husband's leather chair was a chew toy. Puppies just aren't completely formed. When my dog was that age I would have sworn that I'd never be able to train her to walk on a leash. I would go for a walk with her and want to cry with all her pulling this way and that. She's great now, but we kept working with her and kept her in training. It sounds like your dog enjoys learning so keep training him. I am grateful that we went with positive trainers; from what I have read much of the dominance theory of dog training has been disproven.

 

Good luck!

[Gideon's girl]

Humping is not really a sexual activity in that a spayed female dog is just as likely to hump things as an intact male. Some behaviorists hypothesize that it is actually an over stimulation behavior, the dog is so wound up that it doesn't know what to do with itself so it humps something. My spayed female JRT certainly fits this profile and my 2 male BCs, one neuter early and one intact, are equally likely to hump each other when wrestling, no other time.

[shadow]

Any "trainer" starting a youngster in a prong collar is no real trainer. Stay very far away. I will take a pup to sheep at his age, but only to see what they do. They are much too young to take a lot of training pressure, and really any sort of training on stock involves pressure on the pup. If you had a decent trainer and well broke sheep and the pup could just go around the sheep some and change directions on the basis of the human's body pressure, that would be okay, but that doesn't sound at all like your situation. If your only choice is a substandard trainer, then waiting certainly won't harm him. Giving him bad experiences at a young age could, however, turn him off work completely.

 

That said, as trainers, we have to set boundaries on what is acceptable with respect to herding training, because training a young dog does involve a certain amount of stress and distress on stock. So, although the trainer sounds like an idiot, there is some truth in the statement that herding isn't a recreational activity--in that there needs to be some control and correct work from the dog so that the sheep (or other livestock) are not simply being used as "dog toys."

 

That may seem obvious, but I've actually had folks come out for lessons who pretty much equated a trip for lessons to going to the dog park. That is, they looked at it as just another thing their dog could do to burn off steam. I have no wish to work with those sorts of people/dogs because to me they are approaching it as fun and games and not something serious. With most other fun and games, nothing else has the potential to be harmed, but with stockwork, there are the livestock to consider, and they need to be treated with the respect due to sentient beings who don't have a real say in how they're being used. So although I do encourage people to try their dogs on stock and to train them if they so desire, I don't particularly want to work with people/dogs whose attitude is that it's all about the fun. Because it's not necessarily fun for the livestock. (Note: I'm not saying that this is your attitude, but it may well be what the trainer was trying to convey. Hard to believe that they would show sense in that regard when they clearly have no real sense about how to properly start a puppy, but I guess wonders never cease.)

[ETA: I see that Vicki stated the above much more succinctly while I was writing this missive....]

 

As for neutering, I'd wait, unless you have a compelling reason to neuter early (i.e., you must use doggy daycare). It might be helpful to have a good discussion with your vet regarding the pros and cons and your concerns about some of the things your pup is doing. I don't think early neuter will change things like marking behavior, but I would want to know about prolonged erections (though a neutered male can still have an erection, so it might not make a difference in that regard either).

 

As for everything else, you just need to go back to the basics. As others have said, his hormones are starting to flow and he's reaching his adolescent period. He will test you, so you just need to be prepared and be willing to back up and start over when he seems to forget his previous training.

 

J.

 

Thank YOu Julie, for explaining !!

[alligande]

I just want to give you some more encouragement that he is just being a puppy, I got mu guy when he was 4 months old, he was always easy to teach, still is but and we went through phases were listening was another question. Just like we went through phases were the world was scary.

I was reminded this weekend that it is easy to forget growing puppies are still puppies. We took care of our friends 9 month old flat coat, who was brilliant for being a kid, but she was still a knucklehead. Her owner was grumbling about her not listening and my husband and I kept repeating she is still a puppy.... That and she was still growing her feet are still huge...

[Gloria Atwater]

Thank you means a lot coming from you .... Can I ask, do the herding people just generally have an attitude issue in the border collie world ?

She said Herding was no recreational activity... To me it kinda is for the puppy!

 

 

Oh, Alishaa, that "trainer" - and I use the word loosely - must have been a total idiot. Anyone who would put a prong collar on a 5 month old puppy and uses a garden rake to whack dogs as a training aid is a twit. That is NOT what good border collie trainers do. That's what people who don't really have the skills to work with dogs do. From here on, listen to your gut when it comes to trainers. If it feels wrong, it IS wrong. The sad fact is, anybody can call themselves a trainer and believe me, there is a world of difference.

 

The good and best trainers are supportive, intelligent, knowledgeable people who will do everything they can to help an earnest person who truly wants to learn. A good dog trainer is no different from a good school teacher: if they don't have the pupil's best interests at heart, they're not going to do a very good job.

 

However, per herding not being a "recreational activity" - as Julie said, it's not something that should be approached as just "something for my dog to do." Livestock are not play toys and a dog should be trained and handled in such a way as to foster respect for the livestock. So, just going out once every few months to let one's dog "play" with livestock is not a good thing. It's not a game for your puppy to enjoy, like frisbee or a romp at the park. It's a skill set that actually has a fairly steep learning curve - for you even more than him.

 

EDIT to add: Please do NOT take a pup that young to cattle. He doesn't know enough to stay out of their way (no self-preservation) and all it takes is one kick to shatter his confidence forever.

 

That said, should you decide to pursue herding as an activity that you and your dog can learn and enjoy together, on a regular basis, I see you've been given info for contacts in your area. Do look around and see what you find - but again, go with your gut. You must be comfortable with whomever you train with and feel right about how they handle you, your dog and their livestock.

 

Lastly ... I'll repeat what everyone has said. He's a BABY. He's far too young for herding - his bones aren't even done growing and his mind is certainly not ready for that sort of focus. I don't even think about formally starting stock training until they are about 10 months old, and even then, it depends if their minds are really up to matching their instincts. And again - I don't recommend you take him to cows while this young. SO many things could go horribly wrong.

 

So for now, just be patient and continue with his regular obedience and household training. He IS going to blow you off and be distracted because around 6 months of age, that's just what they do. It's a lot like when little kids first learn to say NO.

 

Your job is simply to be patient. Be consistent. Be firm but fair. Be consistent. Be patient. And be consistent. Do you train with treats? If not, give it a try. Chopped hotdogs or cheese bits have always worked with my dogs. Do lots of training in a controlled, quiet environment before you start taking him out into the busy, exciting world again.

 

As for the bed humping ... I'd discourage it if possible, as that's just not a nice behavior. If you can distract him with a toy or remove the bed (or him from the bed) the minute you see that start, do so. I'd say it's a bit like as the bunny thing - if you can remove him from the situation or distract him away, do that. But squirt bottles and such aren't always effective.

 

And again, be patient and consistent as you establish and re-establish his boundaries. If he blows you off or seems to un-learn something, it's not deliberate on his part. He's just a young, active, highly-intelligent dog who is going to use that brain to explore his world and what he can (or can't) do in it. Everything around him screams "Shiny!" just now and he simply has to outgrow this stage.

 

At 6 months old, my working-bred Aussie turned into a little hellion that not only wouldn't come when called, she'd look me straight in the face and then run the other way! So, she dragged a long line for a good while, and I walked her down for a good while, and finally she got over it.

 

Best of luck with your little guy! You're getting good info, here.

 

~ Gloria

[Jeri Jessee]

Let's tap the brakes here for a minute, please. I am not going to say anything negative about the OP or her dog but she has COMPLETELY misrepresented the situation with the trainer. In reading this post, I just realized who she is and I was there last weekend and witnessed the ENTIRE session.

 

First of all, the dog was in a small round pen with GOATS not cows. There are no cows on the entire place, only sheep and goats. I can promise you nobody whacked the dog with a rake, jerked on it or otherwise abused it. He was allowed to move around the stock, change directions etc as you would expect when exposing a young dog for the first time. That is it. I am shocked that she would come on here and say otherwise. For God's sake, nobody was crying.

 

I am a novice handler with a beginning dog (recipe for disaster, right?). I have been training with this person every week for 9 months and she is a kind, patient person and amazing trainer. She was recommended to me by a well known "big hat" because of her ability to start dogs and to coach and mentor novice handlers. She has amazing dogs who are well behaved and respectful both on and off stock. She successfully trials at a high level; she is a thoughtful and careful breeder. She treats her clients like we are her family.

 

I'll stop there but IMO border collies aren't suitable for everybody and working stock really isn't a recreational activity (its not herding ball class--whatever the hell that is). We don't use clickers and nobody gets a snausage for a pretty outrun. Sorry if that hurts anybody's feelings.

[Sue R]

Well, that certainly is a completely different take on the situation, from someone else's point of view. Now I wonder just what actually did happen, and how much things were colored (one way or the other) by someone's perceptions. Is this somewhat like a "crate versus non-crate" discussion - one camp thinks it is cruel to "cage" a dog, and the other camp feels a crate is a dog's "safe place or den"?

 

Interesting.

[juliepoudrier]

Was the prong collar not used?

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

And i have 11 border collies!

Cynthia

 

I am not going to comment on the two-sided content of this thread, as I think it's all been covered, but I did want to say that whenever someone looks at me askance when I mention there are 8 dogs in my house right now, I am going to read this sentence and feel ok again

 

RDM

[shadow]

Let's tap the brakes here for a minute, please. I am not going to say anything negative about the OP or her dog but she has COMPLETELY misrepresented the situation with the trainer. In reading this post, I just realized who she is and I was there last weekend and witnessed the ENTIRE session.

 

First of all, the dog was in a small round pen with GOATS not cows. There are no cows on the entire place, only sheep and goats. I can promise you nobody whacked the dog with a rake, jerked on it or otherwise abused it. He was allowed to move around the stock, change directions etc as you would expect when exposing a young dog for the first time. That is it. I am shocked that she would come on here and say otherwise. For God's sake, nobody was crying.

 

I am a novice handler with a beginning dog (recipe for disaster, right?). I have been training with this person every week for 9 months and she is a kind, patient person and amazing trainer. She was recommended to me by a well known "big hat" because of her ability to start dogs and to coach and mentor novice handlers. She has amazing dogs who are well behaved and respectful both on and off stock. She successfully trials at a high level; she is a thoughtful and careful breeder. She treats her clients like we are her family.

 

I'll stop there but IMO border collies aren't suitable for everybody and working stock really isn't a recreational activity (its not herding ball class--whatever the hell that is). We don't use clickers and nobody gets a snausage for a pretty outrun. Sorry if that hurts anybody's feelings.

 

Well thank you for your opinion... I respect it, and am always open to see if I didnt see the situation the way it is, BUT I didnt expect the prong collar, I didnt see why my dog needed to be hit & I didnt see why my dog shut down in the second round... I never said he was around cow, some people assumed & I didnt get a chance to respond to that. Also I didnt expect someone to tell me Oh thats a typical "ABC breeder" dog attitude I see.

 

Again thank you, I respect it, I dont ever judge & have not right to judge how anyone does what they do. But for it to happen to my dog, without my approval is not what I signed up for.