Getting puppy, look like a reliable breeder?

[diane allen]

I have no midwest knowledge, you've gotten that from others here.

Glad to see you're checking shelters too.

But please also look at border collie rescue groups in your area (maybe someone else can point you one or more in particular?). They often DO have puppies!!

 

Good luck, and keep us posted!

diane

[juliepoudrier]

Here's the link for Great Lakes BCR. There are probably others in the midwest as well. Puppies do come into rescue, so it's a good place to look.

 

J.

[sixx]

Can't read all the posts... but the dogs have puppy millers in their lines!!!

[Jenniecc]

Hi. I just came across this post and I'm actually glad I didn't see it earlier. I did get my puppy from Spurbar and I could not be happier. He is my first border collie so I admit to being a novice, however he is one of the best and easiest puppies I have ever owned. I have had( and still do have) a jack Russell and a golden retriever as well as a german shepherd in the past. He has passed his puppy and basic obedience classes with flying colors and we have just started in agility and he was pretty much a rockstar. I was prepared and actually looking forward to his energy level and we do just fine. He is great with kids, and gets along well with other dogs. He is focused and absolutely the sweetest dog ever. I did go to the ranch to check him out and I was impressed with their facility and owner. For my purposes, I don't need him to be able to herd anything as I live in the city. So his pedigree doesn't really matter to me. I wanted a good dog who could be a member of my family and do agility as a hobby for me. He is perfect for that and I could not love him more if I tried.

[Liz P]

So by your logic, if I don't really need a quality product, I can buy something made in a sweat shop by a child and forget about the ethics of that decision.

[juliepoudrier]

If you choose to justify your purchase from a bad breeder, go right ahead. Just don't expect anyone here to tell you what a great choice you made. Plenty of folks have bought pups from pet stores and found them perfect for their families. That doesn't mean they made an ethical choice. Good to know you're glad you didn't see this thread before buying your pup; otherwise you might have had to reconsider and do the right thing, doG forbid.

 

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi, Jenniecc ~

I see you are new here. I think you should read the "Read This First" sticky post on the forum before you go too much further. The consensus and standpoint of this forum is that Border Collies should be bred for work, first and foremost. Whether a border collie actually works livestock or not, it is the ability to work that defines the breed.

Otherwise, it's just a black-and-white dog whose great-etc grandparents once used to be something proud and wonderful. It would be like breeding horses that can't run or birds that can no longer fly.

I'm glad you are pleased with your puppy. I'm glad you are able to enjoy sports with him. I wish you luck on your ventures together.
However, it is our belief that people who breed with no regard for the working ability, who breed foremost for pretty colors or agility or conformation or whatever, and who carelessly let all the generations of specifically-selected working ability dangle somewhere forgotten off the DNA strand ... are doing a terrible disservice to the breed. They are deliberately diluting what savvy men and women on farms and ranches across uncounted years devoted their lives to create.

If you have ever watched so-called AKC "herding" and compared that to the sheer magnificence of a dog doing what he is bred to do at 400 yards or more, you would see they are nearly different species. The "herding instinct" was developed over centuries, but it can dilute and fade and disappear in as little as three or four generations.

So, that's the outlook here. Pet dogs, agility dogs, service dogs, SAR dogs, lap-sitters, goose-getters and pot-lickers are all fine. But breeding such dogs with no consideration for the working ability that defines the border collie is not.

Hope this helps you understand why you've gotten such sharp replies.
Respectfully,

Gloria

[Sue R]

Just as an aside, I read something somewhere (one of the AKC breeders' websites, maybe) that made the point that those breeding for AKC, particularly the show ring but also the pet market, wanted to "breed out the herding instincts" as soon as possible to help produce a better show/pet dog.

 

Helps explain even more what the AKC/BCSA goal for the Border Collie is, and it isn't as a useful working dog.

[Sue R]

There are a lot of folks that are "too busy to trial" but it's just as often used as an excuse, isn't it?

 

I see on their website where they say they are too busy to trial so ask if their pups they sold have done any competing etc....

[alligande]

Jenniecc, this is a great place to learn about border collies and their quirks but you going to find one thing that most members of these boards are militant about is that there is only one reason to breed a border collie its ability to work sheep/cattle, and they mean win at trials, be good strong working dogs in farm/ranch settings anything less is damaging to the breed. You will find debates about what a good working dog is, but the point of these boards is to promote the working border collie.

It really is a very friendly place, but your first post is a very hot subject.

Not everyone is a farmer/rancher most have pet / sports dogs, I do and I live in a town, but I do believe in the heritage of my dogs and support their continued development and the strength of the breed.

If you stay around you are going to learn an amazing amount about border collies and what they are capable of, and come to understand why you got the reaction you did to your first post.

[Jenniecc]

Obviously I touched a nerve and for that I apologize. What I was trying to convey is that I believe I did get a quality dog. I did visit her facility and I did not get a "puppy mill" feel. While I admit to being a novice and beginner, and I didn't ask to see any of her dogs "work"' I can tell you that the breeder absolutely loves and cares about her dogs. It is a ranch-and I did see livestock. I did do some research before I went there and she answered all my questions as far as I can tell honestly. She has been helpful with any questions I have had since my purchase. It seemed that people were judging her based on a website and I thought that was unfair. For me, pets are members of my family. Scout is a wonderful dog and I am grateful to have found him. That's what I was trying to say. Is she an ethical breeder? I can admit that I don't know enough about breeding to say. Would I ever knowingly buy from a puppy mill breeder? Absolutely not. I don't believe that's what she is. Could I be wrong? Of course I could be. I'm human. When I said I was glad I didn't find this website before buying him what I was saying is that I love My dog and I am grateful he's a member of my family. He is already neutered-I would never get involved in breeding. My purchase contract also stated that if I had wanted to breed him, I would need their approval of the female. It also states they would take him back at any time for any reason. I don't believe puppy mill breeders really care what happens to their dogs after they get their money. Would I have purchased him had I found this board before? Probably not. Am I sorry I bought him? Absolutely not. I love him dearly. He has become my best buddy.

[WildFlower]

Hi Jenniecc,

 

I don't think that anyone said or was implying that your dog probably isn't a lovely dog or even that the breeder didn't care for her dogs. What "we" are saying is that this breeder (Spurbar) is not breeding border collies that have been proven working dogs on the trial field or on a farm/ranch. I looked at the website. There is a huge emphasis placed on having a variety of colors available. When breeding for color (or anything else) above working ability that is a problem.

 

What's so sad, is that all of the reasons that people love border collies - intelligence, bidability, athletic ability, etc - these are the traits that make them great working dogs. These are the traits that working farmers breed for and have been breeding for for many, many years. The total package. As soon as you start breeding for speed as the priority, and the other traits like bidability go to the way side, you may likely end up with a really fast dog that doesn't want to be your partner and work with you. Do you see how breeding for things like color or speed can ruin what everyone loves about border collies? This is why so many of the people on this forum are so passionate about breeding for working ability above all else. Breeding for anything else is ruining the breed.

 

I do hope that you stick around - there is so much to learn. I'm sure that your dog is your best friend. I know mine are.

 

I would also encourage you to go to a USBCHA sheep dog trial (SDT) even if you are not interested in ever trying that with your dog. It's absolutely breathtaking to see a well bred border collie doing what it is meant to do.

http://usbcha.com/sheep/upcoming_trials.html

[Jenniecc]

I am only trying to give my experience with this breeder. My observations after actually visiting her facility and speaking to her. My impressions of my experience. Should I have done more research? Of course. I wish I had someplace nearby that I could take Scout to to test out his working abilities but I haven't been able to find anyplace. I am learning more every day about this breed and will probably never own another type of dog-as long as my energy level stays high. When I am ready for another, I will certainly do more research. But I am still incredibly happy that this particular dog has entered my life.

[WildFlower]

I would suggest contacting the MI stock dog association for who they would recommend for lessons that would be close to you. I know of a couple handlers in MI but not sure who gives lessons.

 

http://usbcha.com/assoc/local_asns.html

[Maralynn]

My first dog was my heart dog and one of the best things that ever happened to me. She should have never been bred - half of her pedigree was great, the other half an inbreeding nightmare. It was a rescue situation so I didn't contribute to an unethical breeder but I also don't want to imagine life without her. So I do get where you're coming from in the sense that you wouldn't want to not have the dog you have now. But everything you love about you current dog? it came from breeding dogs to a high working standard. the further you get from that, the less of the total package that you'll have. Enjoy the dog you now have, but also learn about the working culture and passion. By supporting the best breeders we ensure that the breed we love will be around for a long time

[Maralynn]

PS - I'm in MI too!

[Jenniecc]

I just got back from a 6 mile run that I did without my headphones so that I could think this thru. I do think I have a better understanding of what this board has been trying to explain to me. And I don't disagree with it. I can understand why they believe the breeder I got my dog from would be considered bad. However, I believe that I got the exact right dog for me. I was looking for a companion family dog that could run with me up to 6 miles( or longer) 4-5 days a week, that could co-exist happily with my other two dogs, get along with my kids( who are 11 & 13) and hopefully be able to compete at some level in agility, flyball, or treiball with me. I explained that to her and she picked out the dog that she believed would be best for me. And he is. She never represented to me that he would be a good stock working dog. So I am happy with him. Now, having said that, I do understand(now) why perhaps that isn't the ideal border collie for alot of people and why some the things I love about him are probably considered diluted breed characteristics and why that isn't a good thing. In all honesty though, I would have missed out on the joy of owning one of these dogs if this type of breeder wasn't out there because I wouldn't be able to meet the needs of a dog that didnt have some diluted breed characteristics. I was honest with her about what I was looking for and as far as I can tell at this point(he's only 9 months old) she was honest with me about what I would get. I am probably the type of owner that this board wishes didnt exist and I can understand and respect that opinion. I am going to keep learning all I can about him and the breed.

[Tommy Coyote]

I don't think that people on this board wish that people like you didn't exist. It's just that this is a working stockdog forum. And people here are dedicated to the preservation of the working stockdog.

 

To us working border collies are the real border collies. They have been bred for several hundred years to do what they do so well. It's really important for us to keep this working dog around.

 

But now there are also "border collies" that are being bred for all kind of other things - like agility and obedience and other dog sports. Those dogs should really come with another breed name. They aren't working stockdogs anymore. The working ability is being completely bred out of them. The AKC is making the breed into a pretty showdog that can run around a ring in circles. The sports people are breeding for dogs that do well in their sports. But they aren't working stockdogs. I'm not sure what they should be called - sports dogs maybe? Sport-companion dogs?

 

People here are the traditionalists. We believe very strongly that this wonderful breed of dog should be protected and the working ability be preserved. It is very important to the members of this board and they take it very seriously. It only takes a couple of generations to breed out the working ability that took generations to develop. And then you no longer have a working dog.

 

It's not that you aren't welcome. But please keep reading and learning. Go to a stockdog clinic if you can. Go to a stockdog trial and watch. Talk to people there. I'm sure you have a dog that's wonderful for you but it shouldn't be called a border collie. It is a companion dog not a working stockdog.

 

Maybe we should change the name of our working dogs to "working sheepdogs" or "working cattle dogs."

[rlwzgd]

I am probably the type of owner that this board wishes didnt exist and I can understand and respect that opinion. I am going to keep learning all I can about him and the breed.

 

No it's not that... A working bred border collie could do all those things for you, too. As could an Aussie (which I think I remember someone saying were closer genetically to show collies, but I could be making that up in my head entirely). It really takes a lot of thinking to see where they are coming from. I'm going to try my hand at explaining what I understand through many many pm's between me and some of the other posters - correct me if I'm wrong (which I know you will) - because I was in your shoes a while ago.

 

The original purpose of a border collie is to work sheep on the border of Scotland and England. Shepherds looked for nothing but the dog's ability to work sheep. All they cared about was how useful it was to them. By selecting for only working ability, we arrived at the dog breed we have today -- one of the few breeds left that work stock on instinct (there are others, Kelpie's come to mind) - a dog that is very useful to ranchers, shepherds, farmers, etc. Also, it is a dog that is brilliantly smart and can make an excellent family dog.

 

But, time and time again, it has been shown that as soon as you stop breeding for working ability - that is, the ability of the dogs PARENTS to move stock, not grandparents, etc, the working ability is lost. What you have is a dog that has the look of a border collie, but little of the temperament and even a different appearance (they are wider, from what I have seen, less athletic). Black and white (plus the tricolor) is the dominant color for a border collie - to get fancy colors regularly, you really have to try hard to get fancy colors. Fancy colors is not working ability.

 

How to put this... It's not that you are the type of owner that shouldn't exist - I believe that while you have a wonderful dog (my first border collie was from an AKC breeder that also worked sheep, boo me) a dog bred for working ability specifically from working lines would be an even better dog. It would be authentic to the breed - thus keeping the breed authentic. It would be able to run with you. It would be calm and gentle with your kids, etc. I was perfectly happy with my AKC border collie and shelter border collies. Now I have one from a working line with papers - and what the heck, I was missing half of life until now... It's a dog that gets in your head. Were my other dogs less of a good fit? No, they were wonderful dogs, perfect for my family. Were they a working border collie, no... There's a difference that you just can't see until you have a well bred border collie. It's like looking at a border collie and looking at a reflection of a border collie in a pond, as best as I can describe it (maybe I'm coming down to hard on appearance-bred dogs... I saw one at an ahba trial a bit ago, it really was sad and really left an impact - and I was told that it was a better herding dog than most).

 

(Disclaimer for those of you like, what the heck, I thought your current dog came from the shelter: I still have my dog from the shelter and happened into another dog from working lines. I talked to many people with a dog from these lines before buying her and had a chance to see her sister. I've had her on sheep twice, with my friend bailing me out both times since I'm getting run over by stock and inept at walking in figure 8's)

 

Rebecca

 

ETA: What Tommy Coyote said (btw, are you ever going to post a picture, I'm dying to see your pup after Pam posted about it...)

[Maralynn]

The routine you describe would be enough to keep a well bred working dog happy. There is no reason that you'd need a "diluted" dog. I'm happy for you that you have a dog who is a good fit for you and I'm sure you will enjoy each other very much. But I also know if you were out around some well bred dogs you'd realize that a "total package" dog would also be a good fit for the life you describe. The idea of "i don't NEED herding ability so it doesn't matter too much" is an incorrect assumption as a whole. The unique traits that make a Border Collie a Border Collie come from breeding for herding ability. Period. When you don't breed for that you start to loose bits and pieces of the very things that attract you to the breed.

[Gideon's girl]

My dogs come from working parents. They were ranch dogs. And my dogs do everything you listed as needing in a dog. Right now one is sleeping beside me on the couch and the other is at my feet. They have all the stamina they need to go all day if that is what I'm doing, but they have the ability to just chill too, if that is what I'm doing. They are great with kids, they actually adore them, and with other animals too. They are the perfect all around dogs. BTW, I do have a small farm, so they get to do a little herding, but they would have been fine if this was not so, and I do run agility with them too. You can get ALL the same qualities in the same measure from working lines.

[ncsugrad54]

Man this whole thread makes me feel terrible. I was given my BC from someone who no longer wanted her. I highly doubt he bought her from a reputable breeder. I feel bad that I didn't get a dog from a reputable breeder so I could support them and what this group stands for. Also, makes me wonder what I am missing out on...

[mum24dog]

Man this whole thread makes me feel terrible. I was given my BC from someone who no longer wanted her. I highly doubt he bought her from a reputable breeder. I feel bad that I didn't get a dog from a reputable breeder so I could support them and what this group stands for. Also, makes me wonder what I am missing out on...

 

Why do you feel terrible? For giving a dog in need a home?

Don't talk your dog down - she's your dog and you didn't buy her from any suspect source.

[Maralynn]

Don't feel bad about giving a dog in need a home!! The reputable breeder advice is for people buying a pup/dog from a breeder. Many of us have rescue/second hand dogs as well. They are much loved/valued family members too and were dogs that needed a home and the breeder was not profiting by our acquisition of our dog. It's just that if you are going to go the puppy from a breeder route, working breeders are the place to go to support a high standard of breeding and get a "total package" dog

[rlwzgd]

My picture over there is a puppy I got from a shelter - probably a backyard mistake or something... He did not come from a reputable breeder - but I supported the shelter, not the breeder... Never feel bad about giving a dog a home. How many people suggested looking at a reputable rescue - I really doubt the majority of those dogs come from reputable breeders... They still need a home, and it's right to give them one!