Searching for a foundation bitch?

[Little Bo Boop]

Fools! Don't let her rip you off! She is selling hyena puppies! They will eat your sheep!

 

 

Ha ha ;-) This little angel?? Why she wouldn't hurt a fly, look at that sweet, gentle face ;-)

 

[Sue R]

Stella is a step beyond candy-colored dogs - she's a confetti-colored dog, extremely rare and for that reason alone, you could try to make a mint off her if you didn't have scruples.

 

And the hybrid hyena aspect just improves the nose and heel bite...and lets her sneak up on the livestock unnoticed!

[DeltaBluez Tess]

If I take Stella, does the cute kitten come along as part of the package?

[gcv-border]

I understand why you would think this, but it's not necessarily so. It would be true in the early days of developing a breed, certainly, that you would be utilizing talented mixed breeds or other breeds, and that did happen in the development of the border collie. But at some point in the development of the breed, you can reach a point where breeding has been so focused and so effective that rarely if ever would you find a better dog outside your breed than within it. I think the border collie has pretty much reached that point. It is just about impossible to find a non-border collie that could contribute more to a breeding cross in terms of working ability than another border collie.

 

Think about it in the much simpler terms of appearance breeding. If you're wanting to create a dog that best exemplifies the Dalmatian breed standard, you're not going to benefit by crossing to a non-Dalmatian. It's the same with the working standard to which border collies are bred -- breeding to that standard has been successful to the point that pretty much no non-border collie meets that standard as well or better than a good border collie, so what would you have to gain by bringing a non-border collie into your lines?

 

 

Thank you Eileen. I was going to respond similarly to your first paragraph. You saved me a lot of typing. :)/>

 

Apologies in advance for the OT: Interesting that you brought up Dals, I am remembering that a breeder (a veterinarian) outcrossed Dals to a pointer to remove the gene mutation in Dals that results in high levels of uric acid, which in turn leads to bladder stones. The huu mutation is recessive (therefore requiring 2 copies to produce the disease), but since the entire purebred Dalmation population carries 2 copies of the huu mutation - there is no way to breed a purebred Dal with low levels of uric acid. The Dal/pointer cross - after back-crossing for several generations - produced dogs that met the breed standard AND had low levels (normal levels) of uric acid. (This is a short and simple version of the story). Interestingly, and sadly, these 'healthy' Dalmations met with opposition by the breed club and were not allowed to be AKC registered (for whatever that is worth). I think this is one scenario where outcrossing would have been very beneficial to the breed. Very simplistic, yes, since we are only talking about a single gene (vs. the polygenic 'working ability' of a BC), but somewhat illustrative.

 

Here is a link for anyone interested: http://thebark.com/content/dna-test-helps-dalmatians

 

Jovi

[Little Bo Boop]

If I take Stella, does the cute kitten come along as part of the package?

 

 

Ahhh, I couldn't part with little Frankie ;-) Plus I think you'd have to have a license to own her...she's registered as a lethal weapon, Ninja cat ;-)

 

 

She's also a stunt cat...;-)

 

[OurBoys]

Betty, I apologize if this is a dumb question but in Frankie's stunt picture, is that an eagle flying on the left hand side?

[appyridr]

I like color and chrome in dogs & horses. But I wouldn't breed for it. I won't breed anything. There are too many more experienced good breeders around. World doesn't need another for a long long time. My first BC is a red dog with freckles & I love him. He has a lot of good working trial dogs before him, around him and after him. I could rhyme off a dozen good red dogs in the PNW but none were bred FOR color. They also have nice black&white relatives too. I also knew of an older brother that took a novice handler to Open. Which is important because by the time you get to Open, you may be ready for a very different dog.

I am not a big fan of white heads, blue eyes or tri-colors. I have one with all 3. I got him because his mother is same way bred as my red dog and I own his father(co-owned for stud). Who happened to produce 3 nice Open level trial dogs in a previous litter. I picked him because he looked like his white headed/blue eyed sister from that earlier litter who is a REALLY nice trial dog. Hoping maybe if the puppy looked like his sister, maybe he would work like her & his father with same white head. Turns out he doesn't work much like them but is doing just fine.

White headed father came to me as a started 2 yr. old. I got him because my young red dog wasn't started yet but I wanted to start trialing. I also knew about 4 of his littermates that I liked.

My other dog came sight unseen. She turned out to be fairly classic black & white with a bit of tri. She also has one ear up. I want prick ears next time and freckles and red not just any red but deep dark red and medium rough coat - no slicks for me. Natural outrunner, good feel, nice pace, hunts for sheep, good listener, couch potato off sheep, good hips & CEA Clear or Carrier. LOL

Lani

[Journey]

While everyone is coveting Stella I'll be happy to hide her here.

[Liz P]

Once again we catch you in a lie. That's no house pet, it's a wild African cat. I am starting to suspect that you don't live in TX at all. I bet your real home is in Kenya and your dogs herd wildebeest for a living.

[Eileen Stein]

Apologies in advance for the OT: Interesting that you brought up Dals, I am remembering that a breeder (a veterinarian) outcrossed Dals to a pointer to remove the gene mutation in Dals that results in high levels of uric acid, which in turn leads to bladder stones. The huu mutation is recessive (therefore requiring 2 copies to produce the disease), but since the entire purebred Dalmation population carries 2 copies of the huu mutation - there is no way to breed a purebred Dal with low levels of uric acid. The Dal/pointer cross - after back-crossing for several generations - produced dogs that met the breed standard AND had low levels (normal levels) of uric acid. (This is a short and simple version of the story). Interestingly, and sadly, these 'healthy' Dalmations met with opposition by the breed club and were not allowed to be AKC registered (for whatever that is worth). I think this is one scenario where outcrossing would have been very beneficial to the breed. Very simplistic, yes, since we are only talking about a single gene (vs. the polygenic 'working ability' of a BC), but somewhat illustrative.

 

You know, I remember that very instance, and it almost made me pick a different breed to use as an example, because I didn't want to complicate the issue. My point was that it would not make sense to go outside the breed for the purpose of breeding a dog that more closely conformed to the breed standard, and the Dal was a good example to use, because its appearance is so distinctive. But there certainly can be good reason to go outside the breed to alleviate a genetic health issue, as in the case you cite, and on other rare occasions I believe that has been done in the KC breeds, although generally without KC approval.

[geonni banner]

My advice. FWIW.

 

(I'm on my first Border Collie. A rescue. Don't work stock. Have no ambitions to breed.

 

1. Get a good Border Collie from working lines. The best you can afford, and

one which was matched with you by a good breeder of working/trialing dogs.

 

2. Learn to work stock. This should occupy you for a couple decades. Get a

mentor who works stock, trials successfully and has bred top quality

trialing/working dogs. On your 2nd or 3rd dog, you could get into trialing.

If you do well, get your own stock and a place to keep them. Try trialing some more.

 

3. If you have survived caring for livestock in all weathers, working your

butt off to bring out the best in yourself and you dog(s), start discussing

breeding goals with your mentor.

 

4. THEN start looking for a good bitch. (If you don't already have one.)

 

By this time, red will have ceased to be an issue.

 

Good luck.

 

PS. I'm not being facetious, or looking down on you. I really hope you can do all this and succeed. I wish I could too!

[DeltaBluez Tess]

My advice. FWIW.

 

(I'm on my first Border Collie. A rescue. Don't work stock. Have no ambitions to breed.

 

1. Get a good Border Collie from working lines. The best you can afford, and

one which was matched with you by a good breeder of working/trialing dogs.

 

2. Learn to work stock. This should occupy you for a couple decades. Get a

mentor who works stock, trials successfully and has bred top quality

trialing/working dogs. On your 2nd or 3rd dog, you could get into trialing.

If you do well, get your own stock and a place to keep them. Try trialing some more.

 

3. If you have survived caring for livestock in all weathers, working your

butt off to bring out the best in yourself and you dog(s), start discussing

breeding goals with your mentor.

 

4. THEN start looking for a good bitch. (If you don't already have one.)

 

 

 

 

WELL SAID! Great advice

[Little Bo Boop]

Betty, I apologize if this is a dumb question but in Frankie's stunt picture, is that an eagle flying on the left hand side?

 

 

LOL Brenda, not a dumb question, I looked at that myself ;-) not sure if it's a bit of debris from the feeder or a bird, not an eagle for sure...could have been a hawk or a Caracara though.

[Tommy Coyote]

I always wonder why anyone would want to breed any kind of dog. Puppies make the biggest mess - and it always smells like poop wherever they are.

 

One breeder I knew always moved her puppies outside just as soon as she could. They stayed in the shrubs and played in the grass. But then I would be too worried about them being outside like that unless I was right there watching to be sure predators wouldn't get them.

 

It is just so much trouble unless you have the right setup - like a barn stall or something.

 

And I don't think that people breeding most dogs make anything. It is expensive. And if something goes wrong you can be looking at a ton of money in vet bills.

 

I know how much trouble one little puppy can be - I can't even imagine trying to deal with six. I know that way back when I thought about having puppies and a good working line and all that stuff. And then I sat down and looked at the reality of it all. Too much.

[Christina]

I always wonder why anyone would want to breed any kind of dog. Puppies make the biggest mess - and it always smells like poop wherever they are.

 

One breeder I knew always moved her puppies outside just as soon as she could. They stayed in the shrubs and played in the grass. But then I would be too worried about them being outside like that unless I was right there watching to be sure predators wouldn't get them.

 

It is just so much trouble unless you have the right setup - like a barn stall or something.

 

And I don't think that people breeding most dogs make anything. It is expensive. And if something goes wrong you can be looking at a ton of money in vet bills.

 

I know how much trouble one little puppy can be - I can't even imagine trying to deal with six. I know that way back when I thought about having puppies and a good working line and all that stuff. And then I sat down and looked at the reality of it all. Too much.

 

Er...this seems really anti-breeding to me. I want to breed because I love my breed. I want the breed to remain the way it is.

[Journey]

Er...this seems really anti-breeding to me. I want to breed because I love my breed. I want the breed to remain the way it is.

 

Ok, but you can't do that, remain the same, if color is a criteria. It never has been, so if you want to breed true, toss out that and learn about the working border collie breed.

[bcnewe2]

I want the breed to remain the way it is

 

Then I hope you don't add color on to your criteria list.

Sounds to me you are learning even if you still want to keep your dream. I think that's great. You have time to change your mind (or not, I guess) for now though I hope you have a ton to ponder about your dreams! ;)/>

 

 

Tommy did point out the negative, if it stops some well meaning people from breeding without doing ALL the homework and learning they need, then it's a great post.

 

Not sure if you mention in your later posts and there are so many now it's hard to single things out, has the board as a collective given you enough food for thought to slightly change your mind and ideas? I understand not on breeding but on what for, when and how?

 

oops, Karen and I were posting at the same time!

[geonni banner]

Er...this seems really anti-breeding to me. I want to breed because I love my breed. I want the breed to remain the way it is.

I don't think this is "anti-breeding" at all. It is a simple description of some of what raising pups is about.

 

It has always amused me what my most successful strategy for getting pet owners to spay and neuter their dogs was -

 

When faced with the starry-eyed pet owner who wanted to breed their dog, "Just one time because he/she is so beautiful/smart/irreplaceable," I would tell them this:

 

If your dog has pups you will spend a minimum of 6 weeks with all of them. Probably a lot longer. Those pups will probably be in a pen for a lot of that time. Each of those pups will poop 4 to 6 times a day. Even if you are hovering nearby with a roll of paper towels 24/7, you will have 24 to 36 puppy-poopies to clean up every day. This doesn't reflect the poop you'll have to wash/wipe off the pup's feet and fur and the mess they track all over from stepping in it. And yeah, puppy poop smells like, well, s**t.

 

There is a romantic side - a transcendental side - to life with a Border Collie. It includes things like watching the heart and brain of the best stock-dog ever created making it do what it was made to do. It is heart-stopping, tear-inducing and vastly satisfying. Even for me - and I've never had the privilege of doing anything but watch someone else's dog doing it on a DVD.

 

Breeding and puppy-raising are a lot about mud, blood and poop. I've seen lots of pups born and raised or help to raise a number of litters. Certainly it has many rewards, but like raising any livestock it is also a lot about hard, smelly and sometimes heartbreaking work.

 

Oh, and if you "want the breed to remain the way it is," quit chasing red rainbows and learn exactly what the Border Collie really is. Coat color doesn't impress sheep, cows or the people who understand these dogs.

[Eileen Stein]

Er...this seems really anti-breeding to me. I want to breed because I love my breed. I want the breed to remain the way it is.

 

I took Tommy Coyote's post as showing that while some individuals are drawn to the idea of breeding, others are repelled by the idea, and this particular poster is more in the latter category.

 

There are certainly people on these Boards who believe it's good policy to emphasize the unpleasant side of breeding, especially to those who may not have thought of the negatives, and they are probably right. I guess there are some folks on the Boards who are simply anti-breeding as well, but I took this post as more a statement of personal preference.

 

Most of the good breeders I know breed because they love our breed, and want to preserve it. Those seem like excellent motives to me.

 

I'm not going to say anything beyond that, because I think objections to breeding for color have already been fully developed in the earlier pages of this thread. And I certainly don't want you to feel under any obligation to tell us whether you've found them convincing or not. Whatever the case, I'm glad you've found the posts interesting enough to continue reading.

[gcv-border]

Er...this seems really anti-breeding to me. I want to breed because I love my breed. I want the breed to remain the way it is.

 

My interpretation is that Tommy Coyote is expressing an individual preference not to participate in breeding. This does not indicate a bias against the general practice of breeding.

 

Jovi

[bcnewe2]

And I certainly don't want you to feel under any obligation to tell us whether you've found them convincing or not. Whatever the case, I'm glad you've found the posts interesting enough to continue reading.

 

 

I and others have spent a lot of time thinking and typing responses. I don't want to "lecture" or nag Christina with my last question, I am just curious to know if we influenced her in any positive manner. This thread, whether it was due to Christina or others remaining civil and open to discussion has had a nice outcome. Very little outright snarkiness save a few. I for one am glad to see that! No one that comes here should be beat up for asking ANY questions (trolls not included) no matter what the board stands by. We all can learn a thing or 2 sometimes.

[Little Bo Boop]

Once again we catch you in a lie. That's no house pet, it's a wild African cat. I am starting to suspect that you don't live in TX at all. I bet your real home is in Kenya and your dogs herd wildebeest for a living.

Ha ha ;-) I almost spewed my coffee on that one ;-)

[CLW1]

I am more than willing to listen to people with more experience.

 

I will be taking the offer to attend the trial in two weeks.

 

If anyone has a good suggestion as to how I can get more hands on experience, I would love to hear it. Apprenticeship? How to find one?

 

Christina-

 

There are 3 upcoming trials at Carol Campion's in Hampton - Feb 23rd (guessing it might be cancelled due to snow), March 23rd and April ?. You can check dates for the trials and other trials near you on the NEBCA calendar at www.nebca.net. I'll be at all 3 of Carol's trials and I'm happy to answer any questions. Feel free to ask for me. There will be others there who I'm sure will be willing to talk to you too. Bring a chair and dress for the weather.

 

Did you ever go and take a lesson with Carol or anyone else in CT? I think I gave you a recommendation in the last year or so.

 

It was said earlier in this thread that you don't know what you don't know. It's so very true in this case - it took me many years to start to know what I didn't know and I'm still learning.

 

Hope to see you at the trials.

 

Carolyn

[red russel]

One of the things I have found is that the more I learn the more I realize I really don't know anything. After about 8 years of Border Collies and my own flock I'm beginning to feel like I might barely have scratched the surface. This is after I can't begin to remember how many clinics, lessons, and mentoring by more patient and gracious folks than I can shake a stick at.

 

The one truth I have taken away from the whole adventure is that this is far more a path for me to learn about myself than it is about dogs. The dogs are just providing a wonderful vehicle. I can't speak for everyone but I think most find this to be true to one degree or another.

 

dave

[Tommy Coyote]

My interpretation is that Tommy Coyote is expressing an individual preference not to participate in breeding. This does not indicate a bias against the general practice of breeding.

 

Jovi

Regarding my post: I'm one of the people here who is not against breeding. We wouldn't have any new border collies if people didn't breed. But there are good, careful breeders here in Missouri and Kansas. I don't need to breed anything. I can buy a good dog if I want to. And I have done that. And I have gotten about half of my dogs from my vet - people brought perfectly fine dogs in to have them euthanzied for one reason or another. And I have gotten dogs from Pam when she has taken some in that were in need of a new home. She has rehomed a lot of border collies over the years.

 

Breeding a good working dog is tricky. There are so many factors involved. You can't just put two good dogs together. Working ability is a combination of so many things. I just leave it to people who know what they are doing.

 

I don't do sheep work any more so it's not important that my own personal dogs are really good workers. But I still try to get dogs from working lines. I just think they are better dogs.