WildFlower Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 The thing is, we want to do something that seems to be extraordinarily controversial. You said the above in your original post yet you are acting surprised by the response you got? I'm not sure what type of answer you were "expecting" to get on a forum which you have been member of for a period of time and know the philosophy it holds on breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 This is an "excerpt" of an article I wrote around 25 years ago: I want to give an example of what I am trying to express. Lets say you have 100 (50 black and 50 white) horses and decide to evaluate which one of these is the fastest by having a race. Then someone arbitrarily says only the black ones are permitted to enter the race. So, when the race is over DO you have the FASTEST horse or do you have the FASTEST black horse? YOU DO NOT KNOW!!! Now if you had raced all the horses, black and white, and a black one happened to win…. you would have the fastest horse that happened to be black. It isn’t difficult to understand the more conditions you impose the more you restrict the possibility of getting the best. (What would happen if you carried our example even further and said only black horses with four white feet?) This is something that can not be said enough….you can not (I repeat NOT) breed for appearance (and that means putting ANY stipulation on what a dog looks like) and keep an honorable standard of work. To restate the obvious: it is not possible to breed for anything except working ability and keep integrity in your work. If for any reason you insert a criteria other than work in your breeding program, you will dilute the working ability. I had a red Border Collie at the time (didn't buy him because he was red ... just liked his sire and dam ... both black and white.) I haven't had another red one until now - NOT because I have anything against them but because I have bred and chosen only for working. The red one I have now I didn't know he was red until he got here (again chosen for work/pedigree ... saw a video of him but he was so dark he looked black.) I really don't care what color he is - ONLY if he can do the job at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Thank you, Candy, for that good example and for chiming in on this topic - which can be of benefit to anyone who reads it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Wow, I have to say I am worried about you all ;-) the restraint you have shown on this thread is remarkable! and I have to say I'm not sure I like the kinder, gentler board LOL First of all straight off the bat, IMHO Border Collies should never be bred for color, never, end of story...and in my opinion that goes for horses as well. It doesn't take much of a google search to see the damage we humans have done to domestic animals when we start breeding with "cosmetic ideals" in mind,and in many cases those 'ideals' are just a passing fancy or whatever "the look" that certain judges seem to favor, in a particular show year/years. And as we have seen, it does't take long to completely destroy a breed;-( My next thought is to the OP. I don't know how old you are, I'm assuming fairly young? 20's or so? I'd like to ask you an honest question, what makes you think that it's ok, to embark on an endeavor, an endeavor, involving other living beings, of which you know little to nothing about? An endeavor where not only do you want to breed stockdogs, but you want to breed designer stockdogs. What is it about this generation that they want it, they want it now, and they don't want to do any of the leg work, they don't want to learn, they don't think they have to pay their dues. I've had Border Collies all my life, and stockdogs for the last 8 or 9 years, I've worked hard, read a lot, learned a lot, yet I wouldn't dream of setting up a breeding operation, let alone for color (and I have the holy grail of foundation bitches, if I ever would!) I know you've tweaked your original post of "searching for a foundation bitch" but I think your intent is quite clear, and from what you have posted, in regards to your knowledge, or rather lack there of, of the breed, shows a lack of respect and appreciation for this very special dog. Take the very kind advice from the people on this board, do your homework, go to trails, get some lessons, pay your dues like the rest of us, this fantastical dog we call the Border Collie deserves nothing less. BG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 (and I have the holy grail of foundation bitches, if I ever would!) If you're referring to Stella, I'll get on the list now! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 If you're referring to Stella, I'll get on the list now! :D/> J. Count me in! Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 If you're referring to Stella, I'll get on the list now! :D/> J. Ya, she be da one ;-) Can you imagine how much money I could make, were I to decide to exploit her (like I ever would ;-( ) ? You wouldn't believe the number of emails and PM's etc... I get on a daily basis, people wanting Stella puppies, it's unreal...Do they even think about what they're asking? First of all there is no guarantee that one or any of the pups would come out looking like her, would they still want a pup if they came out looking like Bill or any other traditional looking Border Collie? My guess is not very likely ;-( If I ever do decide to breed her,I've already decided it will be a closely guarded secret LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Fools! Don't let her rip you off! She is selling hyena puppies! They will eat your sheep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 If I can't have a Stella puppy, can I have a copy of that pic in post #82? Makes me drool, which is hard on the keyboard. Srsly, let me know if you'd sell me a print. I want THAT one. Ruth and Agent Gibbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Let's just say (and this is an example only and I will not do this EVER) I was going to be a working RED KENNEL breeder..... That I kept my red male, Roo...Open trial winner in Cattle and Sheep, ran in USBCHA cattledog Nursery (placed 20th or so) and same year qualified for sheepdog Nursery, ran in USBCHA Sheepdog finals in Open, very powerful dog, well bred, good hips, DNA CEA Normal, he was the works and lets just say I was going to bred for RED and have a RED DOG KENNEL So, how many pups would have produced on my working criteria that I had listed from a prior post and add red as one of my criteria? Assume I was using only red top proven trial bitches. And I only wanted to had a RED DOG KENNEL... the number of pups that I would have produced would be ZERO!!! Yes, there are a lot of non-red dogs that fit my critieria but as of yet, I have not found a RED FEMALE that fits my working critera. Since this is only an exercise......if I can't find the dogs that meet my criteria that are only red....what are the chances of other folks being more successful? I know there a lot of other folks who have been at this a lot longer than me and if one of thought they could carry a top notch RED BREEDING lines, it might have been done. By adding color as one of the criteria, you move ONE HUGE STEP AWAY from what the dogs should be breed for! The same goes for Merles and other colors..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 What is it about this generation that they want it, they want it now, and they don't want to do any of the leg work, they don't want to learn, they don't think they have to pay their dues. I've had Border Collies all my life, and stockdogs for the last 8 or 9 years, I've worked hard, read a lot, learned a lot, yet I wouldn't dream of setting up a breeding operation, let alone for color (and I have the holy grail of foundation bitches, if I ever would!) Except that I think bcnewe2 was right in what she said earlier -- it IS a common and natural way to feel when first drawn to border collies. "This is something I really want to do! I'm going to become a breeder of top quality working border collies." And even "I like the red ones (or merle ones, or whatever) best, so I'm going to develop a line of top working red border collies. I'll name my kennel _______!" is pretty natural, too. I think bcnewe2 is right when she says that more people than like to admit have felt this way back when they first started. YOU don't feel that way precisely because you have had border collies a long time and learned a lot that the beginner is not in a position to know. So I don't think it's so much a matter of "kids these days" or a particular generation as it is a matter of being enthusiastic yet having unrealistic ideas because so much of what's involved is unknown to you. And I guess it's the role of age and experience to be saying, "Hold on now, there's more to it than you realize, there's a whole lot you don't know, and that's not such a great idea, you should do this instead." And then it's natural for Youth to feel squelched and skeptical, and even patronized: "I didn't say I wanted it now, I know I have a lot to learn." And then Age gets huffy: "You say you know you have a lot to learn, but then someone with much more experience tells you something and you just blow it off!" And in the end, when all is said and done, sometimes they reject the advice out of hand, and sometimes they think it over and decide there might be something to it and actually benefit from it. Which of course is the hope. So I guess you're right that it's about different generations, but not exactly in the way you mean. We're just all kinda playing out our generational roles. Hm, getting on toward naptime. Guess I'll just hobble along now . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 If I can't have a Stella puppy, can I have a copy of that pic in post #82? I don't even want a Stella puppy. I just want Stella. And if Betty were a REAL friend, she would give her to me RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Personally, I think Bill is highly under rated. That is one handsome fella'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I guess I must be uncommon, then, because I've never been drawn to performance animals and thought from the start that I would breed. I don't even know why that would be a first thought. ISTM you'd need to learn something about the thing that interests you before you jump in with both feet to breed (or get to the purported pinnacle of that interest). As with any endeavor, animal-related or not, one generally starts at the beginning and progresses through to the end result, be that playing at Carnegie Hall, or exhibiting one's art at the Met, or breeding exceptional animals. I guess when it comes to animals, I've always thought first about where all those offspring would go, and that's generally enough to be able to rein myself in. When I got my first couple of border collies, I simply thought they'd be great jogging and roller blading partners. And awesome frisbee dogs. And just plain fun to own/work with. The first stockwork I did was with neutered rescues, so breeding wasn't on my mind then, either. Breeding never crossed my mind until I had a really good dog and had had success on the trial field in open. Am I really so different from others? I would like to think not. Oh yeah, and I need to think about fitting a nap in too.... J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I grew up with an "upstate farm collie" - in the wilds of suburban Long Island. She was a stray, and never saw stock but on a basketball she had all the moves, eye, crouch, style. The best dog a child ever had and my constant companion and protector (not one of my "real" Border Collies has ever been useful as a protector of anything). We had several Aussies, of varying usefulness, and a Border Collie/Aussie cross that was also useful but with us lacking any idea of how to train or properly work with a dog, these dogs had to figure things out and were useful largely due to their own efforts and not any real input from us. And one day we watched a demo at a highland games and I saw what a well-bred, well-trained, well-handled dog could do, and I told Ed, "That is what I need! A gathering dog like that!" And I got a pup and one thing led to another. But I did not have any interest whatsoever (and still don't) in breeding - when I see all the great farm/trial dogs out there and the pups that are produced by good, thoughtful breedings in the hands of people who love, understand, and work these dogs, I know that for the vast majority of people, there is no need to breed. You can find a well-bred pup or started or retired dog if you just look around and learn. So, while many people do want to produce a litter of pups from their nice bitch or dog (and that's okay with me as long as it's a good breeding choice), I am probably in the minority in not wanting to breed ever - but thinking ahead as to what I might look for in another pup some day and where I might seek that pup. I am sure that if I had more drive or ambition, I might feel otherwise, but my primary goal in getting a pup or having a dog is to help on the farm, and be a companion. I'll leave the breeding to the folks who have much more knowledge and experience than I ever will have. And a nap would surely hit the spot just about now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I'm not sure, but it seems like I would be considered "young", at least in terms of this conversation and I have never considered breeding. My current skills (or lack there of) on the trial field reminds me both of how far I've come in the past 4 years but also how much more I have learn and experience in the world of training border collies on stock. I wouldn't trade the journey I've had or the path I have yet to travel for just about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Okay- I've walked away from this and mulled things over. There are a few points I want to make. Genetically speaking, anybody who breeds within a certain breed and only within that breed of a particular species (say somebody who selects for the working ability of Border Collies) is not selecting strictly for working ability. You are also selecting for breed- unless you are crossing talented mix-breeds with extraordinarily working ability into your lines, you are breeding for something other than working ability. My thought was that it would be possible to narrow this down even more. Breed for the working ability of a breed with a specific coat color in mind. It was an idea. I'm still considering it as a future project. Considering. As I learn more, that will probably change. But I do know that, somewhere in the future, I will not hesitate to breed when I feel confident in my ability to assess and train working dogs, and when my breeding stock is exemplary. Yes, I am in the my early twenties. I have plenty of time to learn. I'm not planning on learning everything from a book. I'm not planning on breeding my dogs tomorrow (I can't anyway, they're both altered ). And yes, I knew this was a controversial topic. I was angered when I felt that personal attacks were being made because I would dare suggest something like this. I am more than willing to listen to people with more experience. I will be taking the offer to attend the trial in two weeks. If anyone has a good suggestion as to how I can get more hands on experience, I would love to hear it. Apprenticeship? How to find one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Okay- I've walked away from this and mulled things over. There are a few points I want to make. Genetically speaking, anybody who breeds within a certain breed and only within that breed of a particular species (say somebody who selects for the working ability of Border Collies) is not selecting strictly for working ability. You are also selecting for breed- unless you are crossing talented mix-breeds with extraordinarily working ability into your lines, you are breeding for something other than working ability. I understand why you would think this, but it's not necessarily so. It would be true in the early days of developing a breed, certainly, that you would be utilizing talented mixed breeds or other breeds, and that did happen in the development of the border collie. But at some point in the development of the breed, you can reach a point where breeding has been so focused and so effective that rarely if ever would you find a better dog outside your breed than within it. I think the border collie has pretty much reached that point. It is just about impossible to find a non-border collie that could contribute more to a breeding cross in terms of working ability than another border collie. Think about it in the much simpler terms of appearance breeding. If you're wanting to create a dog that best exemplifies the Dalmatian breed standard, you're not going to benefit by crossing to a non-Dalmatian. It's the same with the working standard to which border collies are bred -- breeding to that standard has been successful to the point that pretty much no non-border collie meets that standard as well or better than a good border collie, so what would you have to gain by bringing a non-border collie into your lines? By the same token, if you DID find a non-border collie that would enhance working ability in your lines, most people probably would breed to that dog. That's why the ABCA has Registration on Merit -- so that you can bring into the breed an unregistered dog of superior working ability without regard to whether that dog is all or part border collie, if it passes the stringent ROM requirements. Working ability really IS paramount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Thank you, Eileen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 lol...should have checked to see if anyone else posted before I finally got done typing and retyping what I was wanting to say... so it took me 45 minutes or so... Genetically speaking, anybody who breeds within a certain breed and only within that breed of a particular species (say somebody who selects for the working ability of Border Collies) is not selecting strictly for working ability. You are also selecting for breed- unless you are crossing talented mix-breeds with extraordinarily working ability into your lines, you are breeding for something other than working ability. I'm certain that there are plenty that are breeding based on the breed but then there are many others that stay with registered dogs simply because it improves the chances of them producing what they are looking for. They can utilize the pedigrees and ownership record to help predict whether or not a individual evolved from the right type of dog for their program. If they found that that was no longer the case I know of many that would have no issue of cross breeding looking toward other individuals from other breeds that may produce what they are looking for. There are many that now raise registered border collies, who at one time focused on different breeds, some aussies, some acds, some kelpies. I just spoke to a kelpie breeder the other day that is considering moving over to border collies simply because he feels that there is a larger gene pool from him to draw off of with more individuals that work in a fashion that he finds acceptable when compared to the kelpies he has. The larger gene pool with more breeders breeding with the same purpose in which he is increases his chances of improving and maintaining the style of dog he himself wants to produce. I've also spoken to people that have bred and raised nice dogs for many years who just closed up shop and quit breeding after realizing that they were no longer producing the quality of dog that they expected and just went to purchasing from others that were producing dogs that were up to their standards. IMO that is not the sign of people that are breeding based on breed but instead working ability. It may appear that way simply because it just so happens that they are able to do so while maintaining abca and/or isds pedigreed dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Genetically speaking, anybody who breeds within a certain breed and only within that breed of a particular species (say somebody who selects for the working ability of Border Collies) is not selecting strictly for working ability. You are also selecting for breed- unless you are crossing talented mix-breeds with extraordinarily working ability into your lines, you are breeding for something other than working ability. I'm not sure that this argument makes sense to me. Presumably if you're breeding for color, you're also breeding for breed, unless you plan to bring in red dogs of some other breed. So we're all breeding for breed at this point. That would be the main criterion. But when we look to breed two members of the border collie breed, our main criterion is then working ability. After that, there are any number of criteria that come before color (health, temperament, etc.). So I think this is something of a false argument. My thought was that it would be possible to narrow this down even more. Breed for the working ability of a breed with a specific coat color in mind. At this point, you are severely limiting your breeding choices, and when you limit those choices, then you necessarily limit some of the top-level choices (e.g., working ability, followed by health and temperament) as well. As someone else pointed out, you really can't have it all. The conformation breeders are a prime example of that. They claimed that they could breed for a look and still preserve the very essence of a border collie. I don't think anyone needs to explain how well that has worked for them. Consider this: Say you have a pool of 1,000 working dogs. Let's say the percentage of red dogs is 10%. Perhaps another 15% carry red (though you may not know that unless they've also produced red). So you're starting a breeding program that is limited to just 25% of the total working population. Breeder B is open to breeding any color and is mainly concerned with working ability. Breeder B automatically allows herself access to the entire pool of working dogs instead of just the 25% known to be or produce red. The actual percentages (which I've completely fabricated here) aren't important except to note that it will always be less than the entire working gene pool. Why that matters is also related to numbers of dogs that are exceptional workers (a small percentage) and numbers of dogs that are also exceptional producers (meaning they produce as good as themselves or better). That also limits the available breeding dogs. If you then throw in color on top of that, you are really severely limiting your breeding choices. (A good post to read regarding breeding would be Denise Wall's target analogy--you can use the search function to find it--which explains why you can't breed only the top, say, 10% of working dogs and expect to maintain a viable working gene pool. You can see how color could fit in to that scenario too when it comes to making breeding choices.) If anyone has a good suggestion as to how I can get more hands on experience, I would love to hear it. Apprenticeship? How to find one? I will suggest again that you at least try taking lessons with either or both of the dogs you have. Maybe they won't have enough working talent to make lessons worth your while, but maybe they will. There's only one way to find out, and you can meet people who might be willing to train/mentor you at the trial in a couple of weeks. Lambing season is coming on, and if you want to gain stock experience and meet someone at the trial who's near enough to you to make it practical, then offer to go help during lambing (or at any other time really--folks will usually vaccinate ewes about a month out, may be trimming feet, and then of course come spring, anyone with wool sheep will most certainly gladly accept help at shearing time). You may be able to do all of these things with a mentor/trainer or you may meet folks at the trial who can point you in the direction of people who need and would welcome volunteer help in the coming months. Learning about handling stock and how stock behave in general is a great place to start because understanding sheep/goat/cattle behavior will go a long way toward helping you understand what sort of work is needed from a dog. It's not glamor work for sure, but the folks who progress the most quickly in learning to trial dogs are those who already understand livestock. I would suggest not limiting yourself to one farm, if at all possible. The more different operations you can see and help with, the more varied experience and knowldege you will gain. And the more different uses of dogs and different dogs and work styles you will see. Also plan to attend more trials if you can. There you will see some of the best dogs on the East Coast being tested to a very high working level. And of course you will gain more opportunities to meet more potential sheep/dog trainers, mentors, and friends. The more you can immerse yourself now, the better off you will be when you start working a dog yourself (assuming neither of yours is up for it). Some trainers will even have trained retirees that they will allow students to learn from. So going to the trial is definitely a great first step. Once there, don't be shy about meeting and greeting (unless a handler is getting ready to go to the post or is just coming off the field after a run). Most people are very friendly and will be happy to talk to you, explain what's going on out on the trial field, and perhaps even discuss breeding philosophies. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I guess I must be uncommon, then, because I've never been drawn to performance animals and thought from the start that I would breed. I don't even know why that would be a first thought. ISTM you'd need to learn something about the thing that interests you before you jump in with both feet to breed (or get to the purported pinnacle of that interest). As with any endeavor, animal-related or not, one generally starts at the beginning and progresses through to the end result, be that playing at Carnegie Hall, or exhibiting one's art at the Met, or breeding exceptional animals. I guess when it comes to animals, I've always thought first about where all those offspring would go, and that's generally enough to be able to rein myself in. When I got my first couple of border collies, I simply thought they'd be great jogging and roller blading partners. And awesome frisbee dogs. And just plain fun to own/work with. The first stockwork I did was with neutered rescues, so breeding wasn't on my mind then, either. Breeding never crossed my mind until I had a really good dog and had had success on the trial field in open. Am I really so different from others? I would like to think not. Oh yeah, and I need to think about fitting a nap in too.... J. Spot on Julie: As with any endeavor, animal-related or not, one generally starts at the beginning and progresses through to the end result, be that playing at Carnegie Hall, or exhibiting one's art at the Met, or breeding exceptional animals" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Personally, I think Bill is highly under rated. That is one handsome fella'. Thank you! I think so too! ;-) he is too sexy for words LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I don't even want a Stella puppy. I just want Stella. And if Betty were a REAL friend, she would give her to me :)/>/> RDM Ha ha;-) How do you know she's not just a cranky old stinky bitch, that you would want to make sleep out in the yard? ;-) Maybeifyou'dletmewinascrabblealittlemoreoftenI'dconsiderit;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 If I can't have a Stella puppy, can I have a copy of that pic in post #82? Makes me drool, which is hard on the keyboard. Srsly, let me know if you'd sell me a print. I want THAT one. Ruth and Agent Gibbs Post #82? Not sure I know what you mean...Take a look on my Texas sheepdogs facebook page...lots of pics of Stelly on there...and I have another website with all my work for sale... https://www.facebook.com/pages/Texas-Sheepdogs/110865952262405?ref=ts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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