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mike01

Did I get lucky or are you people crazy? :)

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You seem to find a lot of things that your youngster does to be fun and enjoyable, and "...doing everything with me..." - some of those things are just plain dangerous and you should have the common sense to put him up (like the snow blowing) or prevent him from playing with them (like the target cans). You are being amused and he is being occupied by him doing things that are potentially very dangerous (or could prove fatal), obsessive, or (eventually) leading to bothersome behaviors.

 

Please, use common sense now and prevent big-time problems in the future. This is a great young dog and he should live a healthy, happy, active long life. He might not if you continue to allow and encourage irresponsible behaviors.

 

Others have said this much more politely and kindly, and I hope you listen to them for your dog's sake.

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IME, Border Collies are much more intense than hyper.

I agree, Mara!

 

Thank goodness Jack isn't an exercise junkie because he had ACL surgery in November and it would have been difficult to manage him if he wasn't content to settle inside. We provided mental "exercise" and he was satisfied to easy back in to his regular active life.

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Sorry to say that does not sound very positive Mike.

You shouldn´t dismiss good advice of experienced people as easy like that.

You actually feel bad stopping him chasing quads...?

Anyway best of luck with your dog.

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I understand that, mine love running with the quad; And I have run over one, she was fine.

 

Good for you training your dog. You can successfully train them to run with them and not chase them (alright most of them)

 

Leonard is very cute! Enjoy him and he sounds completely normal

 

Cynthia (and I have 12, most of them are normal)

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I have a snowshovel-loving dog, also. And that is why the only snowshovel I use is a plastic one.

 

It's not that your dog can't have fun - he certainly can. Just substitute activities that he can enjoy reasonably safely for those that pose a risk. From what you said, it appeared that you not only allow him to get excited about risky things but maybe even encourage it (even unintentionally) by allowing and being amused by it.

 

I'm not sure that putting a dog up during hazardous activities is just avoiding the issue. Training is key but apparently your dog has had enough opportunity to have *fun* around the quad or snowblower that he's learned to be excited and play when you are using those tools. It is the very beginnings of reacting and playing around them that I would attempt to avoid, not having to correct them once they've begun. And if you can't train for something, you manage for it.

 

A dog that has already become involved with reacting to those activities would be better off not being around them in my opinion, as these things you mention have some serious inherent dangers, whether the dog is reacting or not. I'm sure you know best. And using an e-collar? Even better.

 

He sounds like a grand young dog.

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Yes, I was being sarcastic. I'm quite surprised that no one else has picked up on that or responded to it.

 

Just remember that people posting here are only doing so with their ideas of your dog's welfare in mind so, whether they agree with you or not, they are trying to do something they feel is worthwhile.

 

For example - "He's only chased quads a couple of times, and at first I thought it was okay but then he chased my car and I decided I had to quash it." There are people here who might have suggested you don't let him do that in the first place, and this might have been one of the reasons why.

 

And I won't go anywhere with the concept of his job being "guardian" to a flock of chickens other than wondering if that's happening with or without direct supervision (ie - is he outside with the chickens and with the passerby quads by himself).

 

You've gotten lots of good input from people who are being much kinder, more patient, and nicer than I am so I'd better drop this whole issue and leave it to them. I seem to be wasting your time and mine.

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The dog in the banner is most certainly *not* wearing an e-collar. It's a leather collar with a conway buckle.

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You know, I've been in the "dog" business most of my life, in one form or another. I can tell if an E (shock) collar has been used on the dog. I can read dogs very well and dogs that have been subjected to a shock collar do not act the same, ever again. Of course some dogs react better to it than others, just like humans all dogs are different in how they handle things. No matter who is handling the dog and how it is used, it does not make sense to the dog. Sure, the dog can be conditioned to respond to the collar, but it will never make sense to the dog. I just love how humans can justify anything they want to do and build their egos doing it.

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Can someone please explain the opposition to e-collars?

Well in your own words "it´s annoying as hell", combined with your statement about pressing the button after the command and letting go when your dog obeys.

You really see nothing wrong with that...?

I think one of your misgivings is that "wrong use of an e-collar" only has to do with the level of the setting...

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Can someone please explain the opposition to e-collars?

Use the "Search" function for "shock collars", "e-collars", or "electronic collars" (or whatever other names you choose), and you will find other, previous discussions that cover the salient points.

 

One primary reason is that, unlike your using your voice or body pressure, the e-collar effect comes "out of nowhere" and is not readily associated with your doing anything. It also tends to make dogs fearful (as ItsADogsLyfe pointed out), particularly Border Collies, which tend to be sensitive (even when they may seem bull-headed).

 

It is usually the option for folks who don't have or won't use something more appropriate. It's "long distance" and doesn't involve any real effort on the trainer's part, unlike most conventional (and more humane) training tools and methods.

 

It primarily has its place in training for something like rattlesnake aversion, where "the hand of God" effect may be useful, where it's a matter of life and death, and where there may be no effective alternative.

 

I did say I was going to stay out of this, and I should - I guess I never learn.

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Why on earth would you expect a dog bred for herding to 'guard' livestock? That is what livestock guardian dogs are for.

 

I'm not surprised your young dog runs to the deck after being shocked for something that you previously encouraged. He doesn't understand where the correction is coming from so he can't make a connection with it. Besides, how can you expect him to understand the difference between flying snow from your shovel and flying snow from a snow blower? One behavior you encourage, the other, you will probably shock him for.

 

Good luck with all that.

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Can someone please explain the opposition to e-collars?

 

Dogs can often associate a negative consequence with more than what they were corrected for. It can have some fall out. As a general rule, Border Collies are pretty sensitive and there can be issues.

 

This is a great article about the effects and fall out of using shock collars.

 

Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs? A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers

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To reply to the original question, I think Julie had some very good responses and agree with everything she said.

 

In response to the rest of what has transpired here, I'm really curious what made you settle on a Border Collie for a guardian dog?

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It does beg the question tho, why a Collie for a gaurdian job. Certinly since youve done all the research and taked extensivly with the breeder (and i use that term loosly) would you choose a herding dog for a gaurdians job. Id really like to know who your "breeder" is, that they would assure you that your purposes for obtaining a collie were in line and on target for this breed, as no reputable breeder of any consequense would allow a pup to go into a stuation such as your describing. Or are you just being a troll.....

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Border collies are definitely not livestock guardian dogs. Really find it hard to believe that you misunderstood what the breed is when you own one and bought one from a breeder. Sure hope your breeder didnt tell you border collies are livestock guardian dogs.

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Why a BC for guarding: You don't need an actual livestock guardian for chickens...you lock them up at night in a coop for safety. What you need is a dog that likes to hang out with the chickens (thereby deterring day-time predators) and is adopted into the flock. Leonard is perfect at this and the chickens treat him as one of their own (and he also believes he is a chicken when he is with them). Daytime predators consist mostly of hawks (which will see a dog and not attack because they can't carry off a chicken and would have to eat it on the ground), rarely racoons (which won't mess with dogs) and even more rarely foxes (also won't mess with dogs). BCs are territorial (Leonard certainly is) and bark at things they don't like, thereby alerting the shotgun wielding human. The breeder did tell me that BCs are not livestock guardians, but she understood how chicken farmers/owners use them. I am not the only one who uses a BC as a flock guardian. They are actually pretty darned good at it (for chickens, anyway).

 

I didn't get a true livestock guardian dog because the breeders of such dogs say they don't make good family pets if raised to guard livestock/flocks, and while Leonard has an important job to do, he is primarily a family pet, a job for which he is absolutely perfect.

 

Shock collar: You can beat a dog with a training lead, it doesn't make training leads evil. As I've said, I use the setting I use on Leonard on mysel all the time, and it doesn't hurt at all. One of my friends who tried it couldn't even feel it. I can't feel the pulse correction, I have to hold it down to feel the tinge. It's annoying, like a pesky vibration that you want to swat at. It certainly hurts less than a choke chain or even sharp tug from a training lead. Leonard responds to the collar perfectly. I use it on him very rarely, because he almost instantly learns what I am trying to teach him. It took one day and about three tingles from the collar to get him to learn to come to me no matter what he is doing (before he used to ignore me when he was focused on herding my small dog). The tingle may come out of nowhere but it reinforces my authority because it only comes when he disobeys and immediately leaves when he moves to obey, and he gets it instantly, and the lesson persists.

 

Just because some people misuse the collars and abuse their dogs with them doesn't make the collars inherently bad.

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Boy, for someone who has had one border collie for a grand total of five months, you sure know an awful lot about them that the folks with decades of border collie experience apparently don't.

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