Did I get lucky or are you people crazy? :)

[mike01]

...

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I am sure there is a life/death time and a place for a e-collar but not for training Border Collies on stock.

[OurBoys]

Mike, it’s obvious from your initial post and the title of this thread you thought you were joining a forum that would allow you to gloat and expect tons of kudos. The fact you even requested the link to that other forum reinforces my belief. If I’m wrong, I apologize. But in regards to the e-collar…

 

There is a bumper sticker that says “If it’s not a Border Collie it’s just a dog”. Wanna guess why? Everything you think you know about dogs, throw it away. Border Collies are NOT your typical every day kind of dog. That’s what everybody has been trying to tell you. If they are bred from working lines they are bred to be people oriented in the first place. What I’m saying is Leonard looks to YOU for direction/training, not an e-collar. Have I ever used one? Yes, on the second Border Collie I got, Jake, but only because I felt his life depended on it. (I adopted Jake on 7/22/06 so if you think this forum had anything to do with my actions, you’re wrong. If you take the time to look, I didn’t join this forum until ’07.) I have a next door neighbor from hell but I won’t go into detail but if it wasn’t for him we wouldn’t have bought it then. With that said, I still enrolled Jake in an obedience class the same day we bought the collar. (We had to wait a couple weeks before the classes began. And before you give me hell and insist you know more about dogs than I do, I’m older than you are and feel pretty sure I have owned more dogs than you have in my lifetime. Why?? Because if I had have kids, they would have given me grandkids by now so don’t even go there.) The sad truth is if you’re using an e-collar to train Leonard on something that has nothing to do with a life or death situation, you’re taking the lazy way out. You’re also denying yourself of a deeper relationship with Leonard. If you think Leonard loves you now, you have no idea how deep that love can be if you didn’t use the e-collar. (We stopped using the e-collar ASAP. And in case you’re wondering if I know how to use it, I don’t believe in shocking dogs. Jake is tone trained. That was my first priority. If I were to bring the collar out today, he would walk up to me freely so I could put it on him. Is Leonard tone trained??)

 

Border Collies are special dogs, Mike. They have an intelligence level a lot of people don’t understand. (Why should they? They’re just dogs, right??) Do you fall into that category? If so, I feel sorry for you and Leonard. (My DH underestimated our first Border Collie’s intelligence but he quickly learned otherwise.)

 

Since Leonard is only 7 months old and he still seems to be happy, you still have a chance. Don’t blow it. (A number of Border Collies are turned into shelters around the age of 8-10 months.)

[gcv-border]

 

Look, I'm a BC n00b and I admit that. But I'm not a dog n00b, and whatever else a BC is, it's a dog. It even goes woof and stuff. :)/>

 

I am not going to go into training methods because others have more clearly explained better than I can, but you have written the above statement several times (but with different wording), and I keep coming back to this thought of yours. To paraphrase, "Because I know dogs, I know BCs."

 

I would respectfully disagree with that belief. If we leave the world of BCs for a moment, I ask you if you would train a little, yappy dog (chihuahua, maltese, etc.) the same way as a Schutzhound? Should a whippet be trained the same way as a bloodhound? After all, they are all dogs.

 

What I take from this conversation (aside from a discussion about training methods) is that the members of this forum are trying to communicate the nuances of training a BC. Admittedly, one can use the same methods as with other dogs, but you won't get the optimum performance from a BC that many of us try to achieve in our dogs. What you are doing may be fine for your situation and for what you want to achieve with your dog, but from my point of view, I am always hoping to learn more about how to communicate with my dog, how to form a partnership, rather than how to get mindless and lackluster obedience on a dog.

 

Jovi

[WildFlower]

I am not going to go into training methods because others have more clearly explained better than I can, but you have written the above statement several times (but with different wording), and I keep coming back to this thought of yours. To paraphrase, "Because I know dogs, I know BCs."

 

I would respectfully disagree with that belief. If we leave the world of BCs for a moment, I ask you if you would train a little, yappy dog (chihuahua, maltese, etc.) the same way as a Schutzhound? Should a whippet be trained the same way as a bloodhound? After all, they are all dogs.

 

Great point, Jovi.

 

Mike,

 

I think that you have overall been given some really great advice - clearly articulated, sound advice.

 

I do hope that you will stick around this forum as it has such a wealth of experience - particularly about livestock and working your BC on livestock (whick includes training your BC on livestock).

 

I am sure you think we are all snobby BC owners - that we think our "breed" of dog is so different or better than other breeds. Just wait... Down the road I suspect you will feel that way too and perhaps realize what many people here were trying to explain to you. They are unique in their breeding (assuming from working lines). They want nothing more that to be with you and please you. Do what you are doing with you. BCs are trained to do the most wonderful and complex things - without the use of an e-collar.

 

Best wishes to you and Leonard.

[alligande]

I have not used a training e-collar but I have used an e-bark collar on a border collie and it is a cautionary tale to how they figure things out. I live in a urban setting and my rescued adult dog had a very distinctive bark and although he did not bark more than any other dog in the area everyone knew it was him.

 

Within a very short period he had figured out if he moved the collar off his throat it stopped working.... So it had to be put on extra tight not something that made us happy. Then he figured out how to test its charge he would quietly woo is way up the volume scale to see at what point it worked.... I caught him doing this more than once. So much for a training aid, I had been told that evantually the dog would not bark with it on even if not charged. As he matured and became more comfortable with us, we just stopped using the dam thing, I also think the neighbors who objected to barking dogs moved away.

 

I am also the op of the current reliable recal topic and I can assure you that he was trained without correction, though I can say it was not 100% untill he had matured when he was about 2, he was a very slow maturing dog and would become focused on distractions very easily. Today he is always aware of my presence. He is the first dog I have trained without using physical corrections of any sort ( verbal yes) and I my relationship with him is very different. I also can not in any way relate a light tug on a long line, or just simplly stalking my dog down to an e-collar correction at no point was his knocked jerked by a tug

[1sheepdoggal]

Heres a question for you mike. You claim to know dogs and have had many and trained many thru out your life time, so what breeds have you had, and for what purpose and to what level have you trained them?

[Root Beer]

There is only question left worth asking here...have you guys used e-collars yourselves? (not on yourselves, just have you used them to train dogs)

 

Have you used it to learn something? Have you put the collar on your neck and had another person take control while you figure out what that person wants you to do, with that person holding down the button until you get it right?

 

It's one thing to put it on your arm and feel the "tingle". Have you done it with the collar set at 1, 2, 3, 4?

 

It is quite another to experience a sustained shock while you are trying to figure out how to make it stop.

 

If you haven't done that, then you have no idea what the dog's experience of learning through shock really is.

[ejano]

That implies two things...one, the dog knew the collar was the source of the shock, which means the trainer was using it wrong. I can count on my fingers how many times I’ve pushed the button the collar, but I’m well past counting how many times I’ve put it on and not used it. Leonard has no idea and never will unless I screw up. The second thing it implies is that he hurt the dog with the collar. That is also not using the collar correctly. Look, I may not know BCs, but I know dogs, and I know how to use the collar.

 

 

The dog knows, Mike. The dog knows. These dogs are smarter than we lowly humans in many ways. Their job is to assess the situation and anticipate actions and they are hardwired for it. They study you every day until they not only know what you're saying but also what you are thinking and also what you are going to think.

 

Put the collar up, unless you want it handy to to use it on your children. You are thinking that he is only making the connection between the thing you don't want him near and the shock, thereby creating an avoidance reaction, but he is also making the connection between you and the shock so there is a real danger of this becoming a default correction, which you don't want as there may be a day when you need him to react instantly to your voice command (this is covered much more thoroughly in other posts).

 

Train him to the voice or whistle. On a daily basis, watch how he follows your body language, even when you think he's not looking. Write down how many words he knows reliably and work on what you would like him to do by adding language. If nothing else, start teaching him tricks. These dogs can learn dictionaries full of body language and words and he will follow you to hell and back if you give him a chance.

[Alchemist]

Mike, I think you've gotten some fabulous advice from some very experienced people. I've read these Boards long enough to know whose advice is sound, and whose isn't, and I think you've gotten a ton of very useful advice.

 

One thing that's different about Border collies is the alacrity with which any sort of behavior can become obsessive. It's just not something you're as apt to see in other dogs. My own dog is obsessive about a couple of things, and in each case it only took one exposure for the obsession to become entrenched. One is the "shovel the dog" game; if we're shoveling snow, he's dying to catch it in his mouth. If we're not careful, he'll swallow enough that water intoxication is a concern. (How do I know? He pees copiously twenty minutes after coming indoors - this beautifully housebroken dog. We have to limit the game to short stints). Because I know it's an obsession, I can NEVER allow him loose around a snowblower. Not a big deal; we don't have one. He's also obsessive about wanting to go OUTSIDE. He'd far rather be OUTSIDE, even in the worst of weather, than snuggle indoors. Well, OK, it's relatively harmless, and we don't indulge him as much as he'd like. He became this way after a single morning playing OUTSIDE while we were decluttering the back yard. Over the years I've read countless examples of this sort of obsessive behavior in Border collies. It's very, very difficult to train a dog away from.

 

Some can be quite dangerous to the dog. I think a lot of people were reacting to your stories of Leonard running after the sharp tin cans, running after the quad, "guarding" the chickens, of his interest in the snowblower, with the perspective in mind of "uh, oh, it's his first Border collie, and he doesn't realize what he's setting it up for". They tried to advise you against it, sometimes perhaps not as tactfully as you might have wished, and you responded in a manner that I, at least, perceived as defensive and closed-minded.

 

The e-collar issue is a "hot button" issue for a lot of Border collie owners. I do hope you'll heed the advice given here.

 

One book I STRONGLY recommend to you is "Lessons from a Stock Dog", by Bruce Fogt. Bruce is a two-time winner of the National Sheepdog Finals, and is also the editor of "Working Border Collie" magazine. You can purchase the book from his website: http://www.working-border-collie.com/lfsd.html . It's written in a style that is humorous, easily understood, and humble. In this book, he describes his mishaps in trying to train his first Border collie, with the help of his mentor. And yes, they tried using an e-collar at one point, as described in this book.

[WildFlower]

Have you used it to learn something? Have you put the collar on your neck and had another person take control while you figure out what that person wants you to do, with that person holding down the button until you get it right?

 

It's one thing to put it on your arm and feel the "tingle". Have you done it with the collar set at 1, 2, 3, 4?

 

It is quite another to experience a sustained shock while you are trying to figure out how to make it stop.

 

If you haven't done that, then you have no idea what the dog's experience of learning through shock really is.

 

Great point Kristine!

[Sue R]

Everything else aside, always consider that you are *always* training your dog, and be concerned about the foundation you are laying as you do so. It's not just what you are teaching him and what he is doing *today* but the precedent that is being established for tomorrow and his future. And even when you don't feel that you are "training" anything in particular, you are still training something.

 

An example is letting him chase the quads, which you apparently felt was harmless, recreational fun. But it set a foundation for escalating to chasing a car, which you knew was not safe. Think ahead - when you teach or let him do A, how might he expand that behavior to B, and will you want that or not?

 

I once told a trainer that I had no interest in becoming an Open-level handler (on stock) and teaching my dog a certain thing because I wasn't going to be trialing him. The trainer pointed out that what was being taught was a foundation principle for good stockwork, applicable to trialing but also essential for quality stockwork at home. Laying a sound foundation is crucial to all training efforts.

 

Any maybe that's why some things you have mentioned that seem like small things to you, or simply seem like Leonard enjoying himself, are things that people here (with experience with these sorts of intelligent, active, driven, sometimes obsessive dogs) get concerned about - because these folks are looking at the bigger picture.

[Gloria Atwater]

Oh, Mike, I wasn't going to get back into this, since I think I'm talking to a wall, but ...

 

The things you've told us are only pieces of your life, but those pieces begin to look a a little alarming when we try to put them together. Here is a little perspective: I see some guy who lives far enough out in the boonies that he can shoot guns off his front porch. There are people riding quad bikes in and out 10 times a day and you have chickens that must be free-range, because you got a dog to guard them from hawks and varmints, and the dog is free to chase said quad bikes while he's on chicken duty. And you have him loose when you're using dangerous power equipment.

 

You let this dog run around your live "firing range" biting shredded metal cans and you find that funny. You felt bad for correcting him from chasing cars and four-wheelers because he so loved doing it. You find humor in the fact he's playing with tools like the auger and snow blower, and doing it vigorously enough that you laugh about him "trying to commit suicide." Plus you have your dog living with your chickens as predator control. At least when he's not chasing quad bikes or attacking augers.

 

That adds up to a pretty weird, crazy, "up the holler" kind of visual, don't you think? The things you find amusing about your dog's behavior scare us half to death, and your means of working with them are detrimental and lazy.

 

Why would it stop working? He loves me and wants to obey. What will you do when you go "Ahht!" or "No!" and your dog goes, "Yeah whatever." What, you say it won't happen? Right back at ya!

 

Why would it stop working?

 

Because he's a border collie. Because he's going to get older, bolder, more adventurous, and his will and want to DO things will become stronger. If you're relying on that "tingle" now, what will you use when suddenly he's compelled to do something else undesirable - like, say, chase deer off into the woods? Will you dial that thing up to a suitable zap?

 

The point is, smart dogs KNOW when they are wearing a collar. They feel that weight and know the difference between wearing an e-collar and not. Many training systems include a "dummy" collar that mimics the weight of the powered collar but simply don't have the controls. That way the dog will always think that zap or tingle will come, if they disobey. The REASON behind dummy collars is that dogs otherwise figure out, "Hey, I'm not wearing the collar! I can have fun before mom or dad catch up with me."

 

So, if you're relying on that "tingle" to proof your commands, what will you do when the collar isn't on him? When he's 2 years old and feeling his oats and decides to do something else you don't want?

 

Our point is this: When a dog is raised to voice and pressure corrections, if one needs to amp up the correction, all you need to do is use a bigger voice and make your presence more imposing.

 

How do you elevate the correction with a collar? You cause pain. THAT's our point, Mike. You can escalate a vocal correction without any trauma or harm. But there is only one way to elevate an e-collar correction.

 

Look, I'm a BC n00b and I admit that. But I'm not a dog n00b, and whatever else a BC is, it's a dog. It even goes woof and stuff.

 

*sighhh* Others are trying, and I'll just add to the chorus.

 

A border collie really is NOT just a dog. What kind of dogs have you had before? Labs? Bird dogs? Pit bulls?

 

They aren't like border collies. Listen, I got my (now old) dog Jesse from a guy who'd always had hounds. The guy was comfortable with hounds, had his own way of dealing with their thick-headed independence and when he got Jesse as a pup, he dealt with Jesse the way he would his hounds.

 

WRONG. When we got Jesse from this guy at 2 years old, he would run away from a scolding, he was terrified of raised voices and if I accidentally put too much training pressure on him, he would run off to huddle with one of our friends. This guy used the methods he employed on his hounds - big voice, shouting, threatening gestures, probably physical blows - on a border collie, and the border collie could not take it. It took Jesse over a year to get over the urge to run and hide from stress, and a year after that to truly discover his confidence.

 

I'm not saying you would do this, but that's an example of how the "just a dog" thinking does not apply to border collies. Their great intellect also comes with sensitivity, as well as the ability to make leaps of generalization that people don't expect. One day you could shock him with that collar as he's running across the sidewalk, and forever after, he'd think the sidewalk "bit" him. That's the kind of thing border collies can and will do, and that's why E-collars are so frowned upon.

 

Finally ... WHY oh why are you "tingling" a 7 month old puppy with an electric collar, when verbal training works for the rest of the border collie world? I will say again, there is nothing you are doing with that electric collar that I can't do with tone of voice and my physical presence.

 

E-collars are lazy training. If all you need is that mild little "tingle," then why use it at all? Why not step up and become a confounded dog trainer?

 

A border collie is not a lab. He's not a hound. He's not a bird dog. He's not a mastiff or a Rottweiler or a St Bernard. His MIND is what makes him different. That's what we feel you're not hearing.

 

Plus the fact that the only way to amp up training corrections with an e-collar is to cause pain. I can direct my border collies at 400 yards with nothing but a whistle and my voice. And we got there without ever using an electric collar.

 

~ Gloria

[ejano]

... I can direct my border collies at 400 yards with nothing but a whistle and my voice. And we got there without ever using an electric collar.

 

~ Gloria

 

Sue R spoke about foundational training. Here's an example.

 

If there is one thing my boys love nearly as much as sheep, it is water. Brodie is a quiet swimmer, but Robin likes to live life large - kersplash, barking all the while - he's a real noisy pain in the neck! I figured if I could call them out of the water - especially Robin at that level of excitement, I could get them out of any situation so from the time I started letting them swim in the frog pond, they got called out, were let to go back, then called out again. When they were called out for the last time, it was reward time - a good rubdown.

 

I can now call them out of the creek from the top of the hill above the creek, well over 400 yards and as much as Robin zones in on the sheep, he comes to me instantly when called off. I'm now working on whistles. It's a process.

[mike01]

I know I need help with Border Collies, that's why I came here. Sure, I wanted to show off my dog, he's great and I'm proud of him. And I still believe I have much to learn about BCs and that I could greatly benefit from advice. But I will not be getting it here.

 

Many of you spoke volumes about how wrong my methods are (and quite a few even laughed at me and mocked me), but ask yourselves why none of you actually gave me any advice on how to do better. Many of you said, "I can do this, and this! I am amazing! You must learn to be like me!" But not one of you said, "Try this, or this." Only one of you (ejano) described a part of their training methods, and a very small part at that (something I happen to also do).

 

You people get off on self righteousness, and I want no part of it. So I will seek advice, but not from you. For those of you who didn't mock or patronize, thank you for your time. I will try to learn all I can about BCs from other sources, so don't worry about my dog. He'll be just fine. As for the rest of you, continue being the awesome super dog taining masters you are. Maybe one day you will get your own TV shows.

[ejano]

Oh, Mike, there's people here that know so much really valuable stuff...if nothing else,lurk and read. The training forum is very helpful for understanding the Border Collie mind...and its the dogs who are awesome...

[Smalahundur]

Ah well, people tried.

If you are refusing good advice from the very savvy bc owners here ( btw I am not counting myself among them being a relative novice), I don´t see how you would fare better somewhere else. Apart from your very poor reading skills, you demonstrate you don´t take advice that doesn´t comply with your own opinion.

Too bad, you are flatly refusing one of the best resources about border collies on the web. What do you think does that say about your level of self righteousness...?

[Sue R]

I used to take riding lessons. I wondered why my instructor was always seeming to tell me what I was doing wrong or what needed improvement. One day I realized that I didn't need her to tell me what I was doing right, I needed her to help me by telling me what I was doing wrong, and how to fix it. I was there and prepared to learn. The less she said, the better I was doing.

 

I don't think you really gave people a chance to tell you *what* they thought would help you - first, you had to be willing to accept that some of the things you were doing might have either been wrong or counterproductive. I never got that feeling from you (other than once or twice when you said you decided to correct this or that in your own way).

 

If you had asked, "This is my problem - or issue - or what I am experiencing. How do I fix this or train this or go from here?" maybe people would have offered advice. Instead, you came on, happy with your dog (great!), telling us everything you both were doing (chasing quads, playing around the snowblower, using an e-collar, etc.) and then didn't like when people tried to point out where they felt those behaviors were either dangerous or counterproductive or otherwise not wise.

 

You didn't ask for advice but you did get advice or comments that there were better ways of doing some things - why didn't you ask, "Okay, let's talk about how you'd suggest I deal with this?" instead of getting in a huff and telling us all that you already knew what you were doing and we were wrong?

 

A lot of people have made some very good comments, some have gotten impatient at your unwillingness to listen, and it's been obvious (like we haven't been around this block before) that this wasn't going anywhere since you seem to have expressed little to no real interest in changing anything you are doing - unless you decide to do so on your own.

 

A total waste of time for well-meaning people here, unless someone else has been willing to read and learn. You have had the chance to learn from the mistakes made and lessons learned by a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people, and chosen not to.

 

Self-righteous? Look in the mirror. And find another forum where like-minded people will congratulate you on everything you do, and you'll be happy there.

 

PS - My apologies to the members of this forum for being blunt and rude, but I've not got the patience to deal with this any more. Life poses much more pressing and worthwhile endeavors.

[waffles]

Uh I definitely went into detail about how to teach your dog a recall and told you to look up videos of "recall games". I told you to take a step back and lessen the distractions if your dog blows you off. Others as well told you details of how to help teach a recall without an e collar. Sorry you won't stick around. People here know a lot and will spend their time helping you. Look at all the details people went into on this 6+ page thread.

[olivehill]

Many of you said, "I can do this, and this! I am amazing! You must learn to be like me!" But not one of you said, "Try this, or this." Only one of you (ejano) described a part of their training methods, and a very small part at that (something I happen to also do).

 

Oh bologna!

 

In the last page alone Alchemist, Allgande and others gave you anecdotal stories about their own experiences. Both Julie and I told you how we tend to handle dogs and would go about handling things in your situation last night. Rushdoggie provided you with a link to a study on e-collar usage earlier in the thread....

 

Now, you're just throwing a hissy fit and trying to justify it. If you want to go, go. But don't try to pretend you weren't offered more than ample help and advice while here. The grand majority of it has even been rather diplomatic despite your repeatedly combative responses.

[Pippin's person]

In the true fashion of someone with a strong backbone, Mike has gone through and deleted all his posts save the last one. Well played, Mike. You showed everyone.

[mike01]

I did that for a very simple reason...I want as little trace of my presence to remain here as possible. This forum has left me with a very bad taste in my mouth. I wonder why that is?

 

Now let the attacks continue! Not everyone has had a chance to take a dump on me yet.

[Smalahundur]

Well indeed, maybe Eileen could remove those last traces as well and delete this whole topic, I am sure you are not the only one with a bad taste in his mouth about this....

What a stupid exercise in futility.

[mike01]

Well indeed, maybe Eileen could remove those last traces as well and delete this whole topic, you are not the only one with a bad taste in his mouth....

What an exercise in futility.

 

I would like that very much.

[Sue R]

Go ahead and ask her. She might well oblige - or she might feel that enough people have written useful material that someone who is willing to read and learn with an open mind, just might benefit, and so might their dog(s).

 

Now that you are leaving, I guess the rest of us, all mere mortals, are left to go out, put ropes around our dogs' necks, and jerk them around a while since we are not open-minded enough, intelligent enough, or advanced enough to use e-collars for a more humane training approach.

 

Again, to all the regular members here, sorry for being snippy - must be the weather or something.