The mis-wired dog and misconceptions

[RoseAmy]

In another thread I asked if anyone new if prozac would have an adverse effect on a dog's working ability..I was mainly concerned that it would inhibit a dog's drive.

 

I was really surprised at some of the answers.

 

I truly believe that alot (the majority in fact) of dog "issues" are the result of the dog being allowed to "get away" with bad behavior and/or not being properly trained.

 

HOWEVER I also believe that there is a percent of dogs out there..well bred, correctly raised etc. that for some unknown reason are not "wired" right. These dogs though no ones fault for some reason are just not wired right.

 

These dogs do not and can not respond like "normal" dogs do. In fact personally I feel it can be real easy to push these dogs over the edge.

 

These dogs need to learn ways not to "behave" but to handle life..As they need to be taught tools for slowing rewiring their brains. Their owners need to learn how to do this AND how to manage these dogs..for these dogs usually will need some type of managing for the rest of their life.

[rushdoggie]

In another thread I asked if anyone new if prozac would have an adverse effect on a dog's working ability..I was mainly concerned that it would inhibit a dog's drive.

 

I was really surprised at some of the answers.

 

I truly believe that alot (the majority in fact) of dog "issues" are the result of the dog being allowed to "get away" with bad behavior and/or not being properly trained.

 

HOWEVER I also believe that there is a percent of dogs out there..well bred, correctly raised etc. that for some unknown reason are not "wired" right. These dogs though no ones fault for some reason are just not wired right.

 

These dogs do not and can not respond like "normal" dogs do. In fact personally I feel it can be real easy to push these dogs over the edge.

 

These dogs need to learn ways not to "behave" but to handle life..As they need to be taught tools for slowing rewiring their brains. Their owners need to learn how to do this AND how to manage these dogs..for these dogs usually will need some type of managing for the rest of their life.

 

 

Yep.

[Gideon's girl]

I totally agree with you. In my years working at a vet and as a dog trainer, I have come across many dogs that were just wrong in the head. We had a client with a Chow Chow from good lines that would just randomly attack the family. The parents kept making excuses for it, the kids would argue that they didn't do anything to start the Chow up. One day the parents were out and the uncle was over working on their car. He saw the dog all of a sudden get up from being asleep and suddenly go after one of the kids that had been helping him with the car. Right as the dog lunged for the kid, the uncle cold cocked him with a wrench. He got between the kid and the dog but the dog acted like he wasn't there and kept trying for the kid. He finally got the kid into the house and caught the dog and took it to the shelter to be PTS before the owners got home. We had worked with them for a long time and told them the dog was crazy and to keep it away from children.

[G. Festerling]

Couldn't agree more.

[workindogs]

I read your other post and really couldn't understand why you were asking. If you think the meds might help, then go ahead and try them. You know the dog. If it doesn't work, then try adjusting the meds (change the dose or try a different med).....or, if not, decide whether it is worth discontinuing either the work or the meds. There is not a lot at stake here except the well being of the dog. Try it out....see if it helps.

[RoseAmy]

Elizabeth

I am sorry if I was not clear in my other post.

 

The thing is I don't know this dog..It belongs to a client of the vets. He has asked my help in trying to fix this dog's issues and help rehome it.

 

Also was hoping that the herding would be an outlet to help this dog. I know someone who is looking for something to learn on..they are fairly dog savy.however the vet and I don't want to just rehome this dog until we have some kind of plan attack with this dog.

 

These people don't mind working with a troubled dog BUT they want something that will at least let them get started on herding with. So if the prozac was going to dull working drive then we didn't want to get these peoples hopes up about this dog.

[toney]

I, too, thought you knew the dog from the other post. However, it is the same as Elizabeth said- if it changes the dog's drive to work (assuming he/she has any) try adjusting the meds. If not, as Elizabeth explained, decide whether or not it is worth discontinuing the work or the meds.

 

I'm still not sure what response you expect from the posters on the first thread or this one. Medication effects are intensely individual and cannot be predicted.

 

Added to that, I would also venture to guess that most of us do not have our working dogs on any anti-anxiety meds, so our experience in using them is very limited.

 

Most serious trialers use the trials as a proving ground for breeding decisions and we do not want to mask symptoms that may cause problems down the road in the next generation.

[juliepoudrier]

Okay, here's an example not quite anxiety related, but certainly "wiring" related. I have an epileptic dog. She has a few other issues, one of which was never really, truly learning her flanks. All the tricks one would use to proof flanks just didn't work. I could trial her successfully because I knew she had this problem and so I could handle through it--just required being quick to react on my part. She also spins, and when she spins (out of excitement) it's clear that she is not in control of that compulsion. I am convinced that all of these individual things are somehow related, through whatever wiring went wrong in her brain.

 

She is on an anti-siezure medication. It works great--she has been seizure free since going on it a year and a half ago. I had a lot of people tell me that the meds might interfere with her work. Luckily, they did not. If they had, then I would have had to make a decision about whether it was more important to me that she be on the particular medication or that she be able to work (the difference here of course is that seizures can preclude working at all). In my case, it's not terribly important that she be able to work (I have other working dogs), but if she were a working dog I relied on and the Pb had serious adverse effects on her work, then I likely would have considered a different med, or perhaps a different dose. But of course epilepsy isn't anxiety, and seizures can have some pretty serious consequences, so my decision certainly would be informed by what worked to control the seizures, with ability to continue working secondary (because one is life-and-death and one is not).

 

It's a personal decision and an individual dog. You do what works for the dog and the dog's owner. Sometimes just having a purpose can go a long way toward helping a dog deal with the stresses of life. But if having a purpose (e.g., working stock) isn't enough (and for some dogs, learning to work stock really is transformative), then there's no reason not to try meds. There are a lot of anti-anxiety type medications out there. I know from the human side that it can take a lot of experimenting to find the right drug (or combination) that provides relief for the problem with minimum side effects. I imagine it would be the same for a dog.

 

If the concern is that the people who would take the dog wouldn't take the dog if it can't work and/or can't be medicated, then I would say you (or the vet) might need to look for a different home. Usually there are no quick and easy solutions to anxiety issues. If the dog is transformed on Prozac and his working ability tanks, then someone needs to decide whether the work is truly important. If it is, you try a different antianxiety med.

 

FWIW, I don't think anyone in the other thread was arguing against medicatiing the anxious dog. And no one can predict how work will be affected, and of course with a dog who is at the start of its working career, you don't really have a standard to judge against. With my epileptic dog, she was already fully trained to open level when I started her on Pb. It was very easy for me to judge what side effects, if any, the meds had. If the seizures had started much younger and I had put her on meds much younger, then I'd be left wondering if her apparent flank dyslexia or any other training issues were the result of being on meds or simply that she had some training issues that would have been there no matter what. I think that's the position you'd be in with this dog. You'd not really know if any difficulties that are encountered in training would have been there anyway or are a side effect of the meds. That's the only real difficulty I see with the question about medication and the effects on working ability.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

HOWEVER I also believe that there is a percent of dogs out there..well bred, correctly raised etc. that for some unknown reason are not "wired" right. These dogs though no ones fault for some reason are just not wired right.

 

Hear hear and hear hear!!!

 

These dogs do not and can not respond like "normal" dogs do. In fact personally I feel it can be real easy to push these dogs over the edge.

 

Yes, and I see that happen quite a bit. Then the dog gets blamed for "blowing the handler off", as if the dog actually had a choice in a matter where brain chemistry is at the root of the response.

 

These dogs need to learn ways not to "behave" but to handle life..As they need to be taught tools for slowing rewiring their brains.

 

And that is actually quite an amazing process to watch unfold, but it takes a lot of patience, thought, and breaking of conventionally accepted "rules". And it requires acceptance of the fact that while there is always potential for improvement and that these dogs can usually go further than we think they will at first, some of them will never be 100% normal, and some may never completely "get over" the issue.

 

I was actually reflecting on this yesterday because I find that I am starting to actually forget a lot of what I needed to do so Speedy could go to competitions and perform to his full potential (which was not the same potential that a normal dog has). I'm getting downright spoiled with a dog who has a stable temperament, although I love every second of it. But I really have to make sure I remember how much Speedy and I had to work, and the setbacks and challenges, and what I learned from that experience.

 

Their owners need to learn how to do this AND how to manage these dogs..for these dogs usually will need some type of managing for the rest of their life.

 

Absolutely. Some issues will always be what they are, and the best you really can do is help the dog be as comfortable as possible and work around it.

[TEC]

 

...The thing is I don't know this dog..It belongs to a client of the vets. He has asked my help in trying to fix this dog's issues and help rehome it.

 

Also was hoping that the herding would be an outlet to help this dog. I know someone who is looking for something to learn on..they are fairly dog savy.however the vet and I don't want to just rehome this dog until we have some kind of plan attack with this dog.

 

These people don't mind working with a troubled dog BUT they want something that will at least let them get started on herding with. So if the prozac was going to dull working drive then we didn't want to get these peoples hopes up about this dog.

 

Stockwork may be just the right thing for the troubled dog. My concern is that it is a big ask for new owners, having little or no herding dog experience, to take-in a difficult dog who is medicated on Prozac. IME, the plan has potential flaws engineered into it. Such an animal could be a real puzzle for a knowledgeable stockdog handler. Stock training could turn into a series of frustrations, neither dog nor inexperienced handler understanding why (or even whether) herding isn't working-out. OTOH, dog might take to it easily, but less likely.

 

I bonded with a little border collie pup (over a half-hour span during a trail ride), and opened door to jump him into my SUV. May have been my first real introduction to border collies. His sire was running alongside, as well, and really impressed me. Owner said, "Pup is yours if you want him...(pause)...he was returned to me...guy believes the pup is deaf" -- further evidence of cowboy candor. I wanted to learn stockdog training, so as hard as it was, my decision was to decline the offer. Soon thereafter I acquired the wonderful border collie I have now. For myself, I wasn't prepared to become introduced to stockdog training with a dog who possibly had hearing problems.

 

Suggest that, if the adoption occurs, that the new owners obtain a series of qualified stockdog lessons, and that you continue to monitor the situation. There are a wide range of circumstances. The new owners may not have strong need for a working dog on the farm, and in event the dog doesn't perform, they are prepared to accept him/her as a pet. I would want to be sure that the new home does not unintentionally try to force a bad stockwork fit, causing all kinds of negative unforeseen consequences. Monitoring/advising for a while, along with outside sheepdog/handler training, IMO, would overcome many potential problems.

 

I wish the very best for the dog and new owners. Your mediation in this issue may turn the corner for this dog. -- Kind regards, TEC

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Phooey.

 

Among the thousands of sheepdogs I've seen in more than 30 years, I have seen genetically timid ones and epileptic ones. I have seen others that, like my Fly, are . . . er, unusual. While I can't quote statistics, I doubt that 2 % of well bred sheepdogs are epileptic. More, but less than 5 %, are irredemiably shy. If there's another common psychological disease in our compulsive, unusually biddable, desperately athletic , focused to the exclusion of all pertinent reality sheepdogs, I don't know what it is.

 

I have seen biters and barkers, fixators, hyper-anxious dogs and runaways. None, in my opinion, were born that way.

 

Miswiring is, at best, an insignificant percentage of the sheepdog population. Perfectly sound Border Collies that don't suit the average citizen - ah, that's a different matter.

 

I cannot speak about other breeds, but mis-wiring in dogs bred to do what sheepdogs are and were bred to do and before the 1980's were ruthlessly culled if they couldn't do, is uncommon. Sheepdogs may have a great variety of personalities. I have never seen two so alike they could be trained and/or handled exactly the same.

 

I have seen dozens/ hundreds of hopelessly unmannerly pet Border Collies, some so screwed up I would have had them put down.

 

Margot Wood, who has trained more pet dogs than most, once told me that Border Collies are "incident critical": they learn a mistake the first time its offered, repeat it three times before the trainer can correct it and now that mistake is hard-wired into the dog.

 

I think sheepdogs in the hands of capable stockdog handlers are more forgiving of training errors but pet dogs, who are being trained for work for which they weren't bred, makes no dog sense and for which dog money/motivators (treats, praise) are provided are less forgiving.

 

As I wrote before- there are certainly circumstances when psychotropic drugs are an appropriate remedy for some dogs. And Border Collies, perhaps because they can be trained so easily, are not an easy dog for dog naive civilians to train.

 

I believe that most "mis-wiring" is, in fact, "mis-training". Sometimes, life circumstances for the previously mistrained dog are such that the kindest remedy is a drug. A better solution may be a patient capable trainer to restore the dog, though never to the dog he/she might have been before mistraining.

 

 

 

 

Donald McCaig

[gtokitty]

There are many medications used for this purpose. If one doesn't work then dry dosage tweeking or another medication. Like a few have previously stated.

 

I would wonder if dogs could suffer paradoxical reactions like humans could to anti psychotics? Yes with humans it causes suicide and things like that, but could dogs suffer in an opposite way as intended? I have known dogs that have been given Valium and have attacked there owners after taking the medication. Was just curious if anyone has experienced this with these types of medications?

[Smalahundur]

The whole thing with the psycho-active meds is a non issue here, a dog that is so mis-wired (whatever the reason) that it would need such measures to function would most likely be PTS.

I personally think that is not such a bad thing.

Especially in the light of the fact that way too few do the sensible thing and spay and neuter their dogs, you woulddn´t believe the amount of "oops" litters....

[workindogs]

Donald

I don't recall RoseAmy's description saying anything about the dog being "well bred"....even if it was, some crosses just don't work and some environments can really screw a dog up.

 

RoseAmy

I don't think it would be fair to place a troubled dog in a situation that prospective adopters have stated needs...like wanting a dog to work stock. This dog, at best, may only end up a pet. Stock work might help the dog....on the other hand stock work can be a lot of pressure that a troubled dog (ie miswired) is just incapable of taking.

 

A potential adopter really needs to be open minded that this dog might not meet their goals of learning about working stock...and be ok with that.

[2 Devils]

I have a border collie that the wiring just isn't quite right. She is beautiful, smart and overall a nice dog. We say she has beauty and brains and if only she had the temperament to go with it.

 

She is neurotic, frantic, fearful of many things, sound sensitive, has border collie collapse, probably hip dysplasia, etc... I have had fearful dogs in the past and were able to help them get past many things. Tempe on the other hand is not able to get past many things. When she was young, she would pace for hours and never relax. Anything would freak her. She had to have a night light or she would pee in her crate at night. I know that a couple of her littermates have some issues as well but not as bad as her. We spent a lot of time socializing her properly, getting her used to things in general... a butterfly could send her into hiding (yes this did happen).

 

We had her evaluated by a behaviorist and another vet who actually knew her parents. In her words the sire is mental, period. She believed that not much could help Tempe except possibly drugs which we tried and just letting her learn to deal. Drugs did not help much and I actually thought of putting her down because her life sucked. She was stressed 100% of the time. Melatonin did finally help some and she was able to learn and deal with stuff. She was even able to compete some in flyball when everything was just right. She got to play when she felt confident enough to do so. She had a backup so if she started shutting down or things just seemed off we could pull her easily.

 

She still gets melatonin some times but she has at least learned to settle. She is a great dog at home when only one person is here. If there are 2 people that can cause the more neurotic behavior even though it is normally my husband and I.

 

So yes some dogs are just not wired correctly. I have one and we have learned to deal with her and her issues and she has learned to deal with life. I have learned to read her and whether her "confidence" is up or not. For her, if she will play tug with me she is good to go. If she won't play with me, then she is not up for whatever task I plan to ask of her.

[Pam Wolf]

Donald, I ask you to define 'well bred". I believe the incidence of epilepsy is much greater than you think (as are other issues regarding health within the breed).

 

Anxious dogs CAN be born-granted good breeders try to avoid this type of dog, but let's face reality, there are many more producers of Border Collies that do not fit into the category of good breeders.

 

As for miswired dogs being culled, not necessarily, Environment plays a big part in the temperment of a dog. A dog living in a remote area seeing few people might be able to cope with that situation just fine, but move that dog to the big city and he may turn into a terror. IOW, one situation does not overly stress the dog yet another sends it over the threshold. The wiring is there, just needing the 'right' environment to bring out the good or bad. And since many of the working dogs lived in rural areas not exposed to many of the things expected of many dogs today, the 'unsuitable' ones may have slipped through the cracks, and be just fine in the rural area.

 

Additionally more often than not rescues are in rescue for a reason which is usually related to behaviour.

 

And the OP is refering to a rescue dog-someone either the breeder or first owners (or both) created the problems. Options are to try to fix the problems which I believe the OP is trying to do, or have a family live a miserable life with the dog (in which case it would end up back in rescue or put down eventually).

 

I've dealt with many severe behaviour problems for over 30 years. And I have seen many an ill mannered dog. However, I've never seen one I'd call ill mannered that I felt needed to be put down. I have met a few that just weren't "right in the haid", but that number is VERY small. And I have worked with many owners to help them with their dogs, sometimes recommending drugs in conjunction with behaviour modification.

 

Shyness CAN be prevented from getting worse once one has a young pup, but once established it takes far more work than the average person is capable of doing to 'fix' the problem created by lack of proper socialization. Again, this is where drug therapy in conjunction with behaviour modification can help speed up the process.

 

Sometimes circumstances are beyond an owner's control and a behavior problem starts. Sometimes a dog "just ain't right in the haid" too. Sometimes medication can help these dogs. Not all behaviour problems are due to mis-training, but many can be prevented with good rearing.