The Smartest Dogs

[Alchemist]

A link worth considering, carefully, for those new to Border collies: http://www.stanleycoren.com/e_intelligence.htm

[beachdogz]

For years (my pre-Border Collie years), my obedience students would classify slow-learning dogs as "dumb" and quick-learning dogs as "smart" and wish that their dogs were "smart."

 

I used to tell them that it is easier to train a "dumb" dog...because even though it take longer to train the command, once he has it -- he has it. However, the "smart" dog learns quickly, and then gets bored and spends the rest of his time learning how to out-smart you. :lol:/>

 

And I truly believe that.

 

And I also believe Border Collies are one of those breeds.

[geonni banner]

Personally, I think the author is confusing train-ability with intelligence. The dogs he rates as dumb, aren't - in my experience. But they are less motivated in training situations unless the trainer is smart enough to make training more fun and rewarding for the dog in question.

 

Vicki Hearn once said, "The way to train a Basenji is to leash the dog, tie it up somewhere and then go find a brick wall to bash your head against."

 

No one questions the intelligence of wolves - but just try to teach a retrieve to one. It can be done. But don't expect the endless gleeful reps that you get from a Golden retriever. The wolf will quickly lose interest if you don't have various high-value rewards for it.

 

I once heard a successful obedience trial trainer say the best dog for that job is a half-bright Golden Retriever. They work hard and happily, and give you endless perfect reps of the most boring routines.

 

The average Border Collie learns quickly and will give you lots of reps - but you had better make it really fun and really interesting or they will ad lib or just quit out of sheer boredom. It's also way too easy to inadvertently teach them odd little "twitches and ruffles" that have to be gotten rid of later if you get sloppy with body language or other cues. Poor timing or unconscious movements will get you a Border Collie that sits perfectly or barks 3 times when you twitch your pinkie. They don't miss anything!

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Schmart/pfart! My untrainable guard dogs are "smarter" than my Border Collies. Margot Woods, who has trained pet dogs for forty years and has put OTCH's on Chows, once told me, "Border Collies are Incident Critical. You mistrain and before you can correct yourself, they will have repeated the action three times and embedded it permanently into their memory."

 

Donald McCaig

[Sue R]

I think there is definitely a big difference between trainability (or biddability) and intelligence. The most trainable dog I ever had was not smart, but she wanted to please or to do what I wanted her to do. she learned by rote and learned well. At the same time, we had a very smart dog who was not interested in pleasing me or doing what I wanted her to do.

 

That's why both intelligence and biddability are traits to breed for as part of the stockworking package in Border Collies.

 

Thought-provoking article, and thank you!

[mum24dog]

Smart - my lurcher who was darned hard work (but not impossible) to train and had zero interest in pleasing people but could problem solve with the best. My little mongrel is similar - cooperation is on her terms.

 

Dumb - our BC that will mindlessly repeat pointless behaviour and who doesn't have problem solving in his repertoire. He's very trainable though.

 

The smart lurcher taught me far more than the BC about training and dogs in general.

[Gideon's girl]

Salukis rate really close to the bottom of the list, but I had one that could open any crate, door, or food container. He he never ate himself sick, that was the Doberman.

[Lewie'sMom]

I think there is definitely a big difference between trainability (or biddability) and intelligence.

 

 

You beat me to the punch, Sue.

 

I'm careful about using the words "smart/not-so-smart" when talking about breeds in general. The average dog owners don't seem to understand the difference between intelligence and biddable. For training, give me a lower-on-the-smarts scale but biddable breed. For a companion and pet, give me a higher ranking breed. I like the challenge and the mutual respect that comes from a dog who asks me "why" once in awhile.

[G. Festerling]

I think we also sometimes confuse it with inconvenience.

A dog that opens cabinets is a very smart inconvenience but we still call him stupid!

[Lewie'sMom]

I think we also sometimes confuse it with inconvenience. ;)/>

A dog that opens cabinets is a very smart inconvenience but we still call him stupid! :)/>

 

 

Absolutely! I kind of wish people wouldn't get so hung up on "smarts". There are smarts in a lot of different ways. And, every breed has its niche.

[painted_ponies]

Well, one must consider the source. From the linked article:

200 professional dog obedience judges, ranked 110 dog breeds on the basis of their intelligence.

 

Really? Looks like the breeds are ranked in order of how well the average obedience trainer can figure out how to make its members execute a set of commands. I don't think that says much about the intelligence of the breeds - might say something about how well obedience competitors can figure out how to motivate different kinds of dogs. :)/>

 

One of the smartest dogs I ever owned was a chow chow. He wasn't much interested in executing obedience commands (although I showed him in obedience trials and he did OK). But he could figure out how to open a crate, free its occupant, and attempt canine-icide in less time than it takes to describe.

[Alchemist]

I should have directed people to scroll past the lists to be found in this article. To me the most interesting part of the article was this one:

 

"Intelligent dogs are inadvertently taught many unwanted behaviors. Increasing the activity level in a household, and increasing the number of people that are present in it, increases the likelihood that chance associations will be learned. For the intelligent dog this means that there is a greater opportunity to learn things that will be useful in adapting to everyday life, but also provides a greater opportunity for the dog to learn "odd" or annoying associations. Consider the case of "Prince", a Border Collie whose great joy in life was to race around outdoors. Whenever someone was about to leave the house Prince would race after them, trying to get outside. Once, after Prince had started his mad dash for the exit, the screen door swung closed and the dog ended up crashing through the wire mesh. Rewarded by the chance to romp outside, the dog learned from this one instance that it could create its own "doggie door" by simply running full tilt at the screen. After several repairs had been attempted, Prince's owners added a protective layer of heavy farm wire that the dog could not break through. Frustrated by this new development Prince began casting around the house and noticed that many of the windows were open and only covered by the same material that used to cover the screen door. For this intelligent dog it was easy to reach the conclusion that these windows could also be used as exits.Instantaneously, every open ground floor window then became a target Prince's headlong rush for the joys of the outdoors, much to the dismay and annoyance of the dog's owners. A less intelligent dog would have been considerably less likely to form the association that crashing through the screen results in outdoor time, based upon a single instance. Furthermore, when confronted with the obstacle of the heavy wire over the door screen, the less intelligent dog would have been considerably less likely to generalize its knowledge and apply its newly learned information to windows or other screened apertures. Simply put, the less intelligent dog will miss many of these chance contingencies and hence will move through the noise and chaos of a busy household without learning bad habits from only one or two associations."

 

For sure, it's a mistake to confuse "biddability" with "intelligence". Cat owners and dog owners have long debated which species is more "intelligent": dogs, because they're relatively easily trained, or cats, because they are most emphatically not.

 

 

[Shetlander]

For this intelligent dog it was easy to reach the conclusion that these windows could also be used as exits.Instantaneously, every open ground floor window then became a target Prince's headlong rush for the joys of the outdoors, much to the dismay and annoyance of the dog's owners. A less intelligent dog would have been considerably less likely to form the association that crashing through the screen results in outdoor time, based upon a single instance

.

 

I'm coming in very late. Prince sounds like a very intelligent dog. But what strikes me the most is he sounds like a dog in serious need of structure, exercise, training and better quality interaction with his people. Which is why when people admire Quinn in his laid-back mode and say they would like a Border Collie, I briefly mention the "labor intensive" aspect of happily owning one.

[waffles]

.

 

I'm coming in very late. Prince sounds like a very intelligent dog. But what strikes me the most is he sounds like a dog in serious need of structure, exercise, training and better quality interaction with his people. Which is why when people admire Quinn in his laid-back mode and say they would like a Border Collie, I briefly mention the "labor intensive" aspect of happily owning one.

 

Oh man, I agree. That story about Prince was kind of sad. I don't think intelligence had all that much to do with his ability to figure out how to get outside through a window. I just pictured the dog frantically and anxiously running through screen doors and zooming all over the house trying to get out! It sounds like a dog who needs a more knowledgeable owner.

 

People always comment on Levi's calmness and ability to listen so well. I too, always mention the "hard" (fun!) work behind all of it.

[G. Festerling]

The bane of my dog owning existence is a Mini Aussie. Don't ask! But she is one of those dogs that structure, exercise, training does diddly for! She wants what she wants. And she wants it know. She can be perfectly compliant and sweet. Until she thinks of something better. Very smart and the most observant dog I have ever met. And highly, highly annoying!

[Sue R]

Prince's story makes me think about our "barriers" in the house. When we got Celt (and later, Megan), we already had an elderbun (an older house rabbit). We had used what we called "bunny barriers" to let Delbin have run of the family room and kitchen, but keep him from getting out a few doorways that we did not want him to use as pathways to *greater adventures*. Since he was a rabbit, these barriers (made of masonite or plastic lattice) were only about 18" tall.

 

Now, 18" doesn't really pose any challenge to a Border Collie but since our dogs were trained to respect the barriers from when they were very small and could not jump or scale them, they do not jump or push past them even when they are adult. I always thought that this was pretty "normal" until a family member with visiting dogs (three) pointed out that the barriers we were used to finding secure, would only be "suggestions" to her dogs.

 

There's always the balance between the animal and the environment/training/life situation. Intelligence doesn't mean much if there isn't sufficient effort put into training, environment/management, and interactions with people and other animals. Biddability isn't much good without these other inputs, either.

 

Poor Prince - he sounds like he did not have much of a rounded existence. A dog whose greatest joy is "racing around outside" without other engaging activities, does not seem to have much provided in the way of a fulfilling life.

[Shetlander]

Quinn is my first Border Collie (we had a BC mix when I was a kid but he was our first dog and fortunately for us his extreme intelligence worked in our favor since we were wildly ignorant about dog ownership). I was fairly freaked out about getting this breed because I read all the horror stories of destruction and naughty behavior they were capable of. I believe I kept imagining him tearing up my beloved new linoleum

 

Then when I finally got Quinn, well, I won't say he was the worst puppy but he was far and away the worst puppy I ever dealt with. I've had naughty puppies and active puppies, but he was the most active, naughty, able to get wherever he wanted to go (he jumped like a cat onto tables and counters) puppy I've owned. And many of my puppy management tools (gating, tethering, distracting with toys/activities) were complete failures with him. I felt like I brought a young coyote into my house,

 

At any rate, because he was so "awful," I worked hard to figure out a schedule that worked for both of us that included training, play, free time, crate time. Most critical, I never took my (semi-horrified) eyes off him when he was loose in the house and never left him to his own devices in the backyard either. When I couldn't keep my eyes on him, he was crated.

 

Happily, at around 6 months he seemed to decide I was worth the trouble of pleasing and bonding with. Almost overnight, he went from my worst puppy to my best puppy as far as behavior in the house. But I still kept to a very structured environment and only slowly allowed him unsupervised time in the house after he reached 18 months. I was slow to trust him because I knew what his combination of agility and cleverness could lead to. And I still thought of those nightmare stories of destruction I've read regarding this breed as well as other breeds.

 

I am far from a perfect owner. I've made a number of mistakes with Quinn and with my other dogs. But I shudder to think how he might have turned out or the havoc he might have caused in an "average" dog owner's home.