Tragic story... and now I need to find Riley a home

[painted_ponies]

The fact that I can't guarantee Fly won't nip a child is sufficient to insist on precautions.

 

No toddler's life will be enhanced by otchy-cooing Fly. They've got dogs of their own. There is no advantage for Fly to be with toddlers

 

Fly is not responsible. The toddlers are not responsible. Their parents and my sister aren't responsible. I am.

 

I will not have a child bitten. The toddlers don't deserve it and Fly doesn't deserve it.

 

.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Not arguing with you, but your post made me remember the first time I encountered dogs who weren't pets.

 

My great-grandfather had a pack of Walker hounds. As it was the middle of the last century in the Appalachian mountains, the hounds weren't kenneled but had the run of the farm until my great-grandfather hollered for them to come hunting.

 

I think my life was enhanced by being allowed to interact with these hounds as a toddler. I had the opportunity to learn the rules of pack interaction, with animals who were far more interested in and attuned to one another than to me. I think this experience helped me understand canines much better than I would have otherwise, and I don't think I'd have been able to get the same experience once I grew older and bigger.

 

Naturally I can't say if those hounds' lives were enhanced by having a little kid tagging along with them. :)/>/>/> I will say that to this day I will do just about anything to help a hound, cause I figure I owe those guys. During hunting season I'm honored to give out suppers and a warm place to sleep for hounds who've temporarily lost their way. So maybe some hounds' lives have been enhanced, if not those exact hounds who put up with me as a child.

 

I honestly don't remember if I was ever nipped by those hounds. I've been nipped and bitten by so many different animals during my life that I've never paid much attention. I can remember being knocked down by them, and I can remember hounds getting in fights in close proximity to me. The first time was sufficiently frightening that I learned to spot the signs of impending aggression before canine fisticuffs actually ensued ;)/>/> - definitely a lesson that stood me in good stead over the years. :D/>/>

 

Of course, these days I understand anyone being afraid for his or her dog if the dog were to injure a child. People take those things so seriously nowadays.

 

But I still think children today are missing out because adults feel their safety must somehow be guaranteed.

[Beach BCs]

We had a GSD growing up. Snoop was a wonderful dog. Very kid tolerant. My mother frequently left us out in the backyard with him. One bright sunny day (I think I was around six) it seemed like a great idea to lay down on Snoop and use him as a pillow. Snoop did not concur and when I wouldn't let him up he nipped me on the face, near my eye. It was really more of a shove...with teeth. Of course, I ran in the house screaming and crying that Snoop bit me, him standing at my side. My mother asked why, what had I done. I told her and I was punished. It was, after all, my fault. "Leave the dog be."

 

I can't imagine not growing up with that dog. He taught me so much about how to act appropriately with dogs. I'm sure I made a ton of mistakes with him. But I loved that dog, and I know he loved me and my brother. He was our buddy, our partner in crime, our babysitter and protector.

 

I hope that you and your husband continue to talk through this. And hopefully see that the dogs don't have to go.

[Kelleybean]

I was raised by a GSD. Greta slept in the bed with me (pushed me off many times) and kept all of my secrets. She was my best friend as a child. That was one of the world's greatest dogs. We could do anything to her, and she would patiently take it and loved us all completely. One of the 2 times I ever saw my Dad cry was when she died.

[Liz P]

I was bit, scratched and hurt many times as a kid by our pets as well as by animals owned by other people. If I ever went crying to Mom or Dad they always asked what I did to deserve it. What the heck happened to that kind of common sense?

 

Fact: animals are not little furry people. In other words, they don't speak our language and may misread our signals.

 

Fact: animals are not toys and deserve to be treated with respect.

 

Fact: accidents happen.

 

I hope the original poster can work things out with her husband and find a solution.

[Cynthia P]

Riley dog, check with University of Penn. Not that far from you and fantastic behaviour program

[puppytoes]

Because we have a dog, my toddler has no fear of dogs and wants to love all of them He is almost 3 now and finally (after what seems like forever) understanding how we approach dogs: always ask for permission, stay still and extend a fist and only if the dog comes over on his or her own do you pet them (and we are working on not petting on the head even though our dog Orbit loves to have his head pet).

 

But the period between about 18 months to 2 and a half years was a tough one. He had no fear and was not quite cognitively developped enough to understand why he could not simply hug and lay on dogs. Understandable, he`s a toddler. It was the response of the dog owners that always surprised me; oh my dog doesn`t mind or we have kids at home and he is used to it. This drove me crazy on 2 levels. One, just because your dog tolerates it does not mean that all dogs will and my kid needs to learn that it is not ok. And two, why should any dog have to put up with being used as a stuffed animal. I am sure many people will say they know dogs that do in fact love it but i would bet that there are many more that just put up with it. And i for one do not think that they should have to. People need to train their kids better. Why is all the onus put on the dog. How about some accountability on the part of parents.

[Ooky]

I just want to say that I am so grateful to my parents for accepting the risk that animals can pose to children, for raising us to be respectful of animals, and for letting us have animals--numerous animals--in our lives. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is better for a child than a well-loved companion animal. My life, and the lives of my siblings, would have been so, so much poorer if my parents had chosen to make our home animal free. There are many life lessons that can be learned from animals, of which loyalty is not the least.

 

Greyson, Riley, and Sarah are all the innocent victims here.

 

J.

 

^^^This, exactly. i could go into particulars regarding my own experience in childhood but it could not add anything of substance to this wonderful summary.

 

To what I CAN speak to:

 

I am the mom of a 2.5-yo, and a 4-yo BC who is not 100% great/"bomb-proof" with her. He is a border collie and I have learned he is more sensitive than the dogs of my youth in terms of movement and things like hair-pulling. They still love each other to pieces and enrich each others' lives, and though he has shown her teeth a few times (all completely reasonable), he has never put a tooth on her. It is up to me and DH to avoid any failures, and that IS a big responsibility. If that sounds scary, don't have a kid. Because be aware, it is also up to us to ensure:

 

*she doesn't get hit by a car (this danger exists ALL the time for us)

*she doesn't fall down the stairs

*she doesn't drown in MIL/FIL's pool (WAY more kids die this way than a LOT of things you would think of, including guns in the house)

*she doesn't get sexually molested by a person we know (which is who mainly molests children, not strangers)

*she doesn't kill herself 100x a day from climbing, running, jumping, and other VERY NORMAL activities -and I truly think until you are a parent you will never understand how much of a dance this is

*she gets vaccinated, doesn't ingest lead paint chips, eats correctly so there are no nutrient deficiencies, etc., etc., AND

 

*she doesn't become a neurotic mess because WE ARE HELICOPTER PARENTS.

 

And NONE of these things can be done away with as easily as you are talking about doing away with your dogs. Many of these issues can't be done away with at all. And I AGREE with others here that your kid loses out on things they are missing as much as they are protected from not being exposed to certain things - like dogs.

 

You have apparently loved Riley all these long years. What has he given you? What has he taught you? And Sarah? Do you really think they would bring nothing but risk to a future child? If so, maybe they should be re-homed. But if not....

[OurBoys]

But the period between about 18 months to 2 and a half years was a tough one.

Isn’t that the truth?!

 

When my nephew was a toddler, I had a sheltie. Because I took Niki with me every chance I got, she came along with me to my parent’s house whenever my brother and his family came to visit. My then SIL wasn’t a dog person but even she knew her son needed to learn how to act around dogs. We all tried to teach him how to pet a dog but no matter what we did, he wouldn’t listen. His idea of “petting” a dog was hitting it. One day us ladies (my mom, SIL and myself) were in the kitchen talking and weren’t paying attention. All of a sudden we heard my nephew (2 yrs old) screaming at the top of his lungs in the living room. It so happened I was sitting in the chair at the kitchen table that allowed me to see into the living room. Niki had my nephew’s arm in her mouth. Naturally, we all went rushing into the living room. My nephew’s arm was red where Niki was holding him but she didn’t break the skin. It then dawned on us my nephew had tried to “pet” her. Niki was tired of being hit so she had turned her head to catch his arm when it came down. She hung on just long enough and just tight enough (so he couldn’t pull away) to put the fear of doG in him without actually hurting him. He never hit another dog again. Niki taught my nephew what the rest of us couldn’t. I was never so proud of Niki as I was that day. Will all dogs be that smart? Of course not. But even my SIL who really wasn’t that fond of dogs knew my nephew needed to learn how to treat dogs because, as my SIL said, there might have been a time my nephew would come across a dog that wasn’t as tolerant with kids and could have been seriously hurt if he walked up to them and hit them.

 

Riley-dog, think about it. With no dogs around, how are you going to teach your kids to respect dogs? Are you and/or your husband going to forbid your kids to be friends with other kids if they have dogs? Would be teaching your kids to be afraid of dogs really be in their best interest?

 

ETA: My ex-SIL was a cat person so my niece and nephew didn't grow up petless.

[bcnewe2]

I am so glad Ooky wrote her post. It is exactly what I was thinking and tried to write last night.

 

I am old, I've raised 3 kids and am now enjoying 2 grandkids. It wasn't easy but they lived and no one has any huge scars to show for it. Maybe a few small ones but....that's life.

 

When my kids were little we had dog(s) I never worried about them getting bit. If they did, I was mad at them for aggravating the dogs enough to bite. I look back and think we were pretty lucky but I think that is how it was done back then.

 

I worry about my grandkids and the dogs. I don't let them hang together unless I'm supervising. Some of my dogs don't worry me some do. Had they grown up with the kids or vice versa I don't think I'd be as worried. But they are still together no one is separated unless I feel a dog or child needs a break from one another, then I have crates! Although the kids like the crates more than the dogs

 

There are so many things out there that are a real threat to our children I would never want to deny them the chance to feel and have unconditional love and learn what it's like to be responsible for another beings life. It teaches compassion, caring and acceptance. I can't count how many times I found a kid talking to their dog after a hard day at school or with Friends. Dogs offer that unconditional love that you can only get from an animal that you are with everyday.

 

I remember when I was young, dragging my poodle out from under the bed to go to sleep with me so I could tell him my secrets. it is a wonderful memory.

 

I hope you and your husband come to some sort of compromise that will include dogs in your children's lives. It makes us better people. Of that I'm sure.

[Carson Crazies]

One time when I was about 4 years old my Mom came into the kitchen one evening. What she found was me and our dog, Punkin (a JRT), sitting side by side - me in my high chair and Punkin on the floor next to me. Each of us had a steak in hand (paw?), and we were just happily gnawing away each on our respective steaks. I guess that left Mom with only two steaks to cook that night. It's a good thing that she found that quite hysterical.

 

Punkin and I shared a piece of cheese every morning. Sometimes we even shared two. Sometimes I also climbed into bed with my dad and stuffed it in his ear (after chewing it up good first). Punkin usually went with me. She often climbed in with her dog bowl and got up on his chest, underneath his t-shirt, so that she could be nose to nose when he woke up. You know, in case he wanted to feed her from there. I think he was sort of non-plussed to wake with a dog and a food bowl under his shirt, and cheese in his ear... with two sets of beady eyes staring at him. Funny how thinking of it even many years later makes me giggle.

 

I don't ever remember being bit by Punkin, but I sure got nailed several times by my grandfather's little Chihuahua, Pixie.

 

I got nailed by an ostrich at a zoo once. My mom TOLD ME not to put my hand up to the fence, and I did. *shrug* Not only did I get nailed, but I also got in big trouble.

 

To the OP: I hope that the two of you will be able to find some middle ground. My heart aches for you when I see what you guys are going through right now.

[Sue R]

A lot of mishaps in my childhood were responded to by my mother or father with, "And what did you do to deserve that?" (Or some similar phrase that also meant, "...to make that happen?") And then the next thing would be to ask me what I learned from that experience, and how to avoid a similar mishap in the future - but not an admonition to never be around a dog or ride a bike or climb on the woodshed ever again. Just to learn from my experience and use common sense in the future.

 

Certainly, I never experienced a potential disfigurement like the OP did. I think that could color anyone's outlook and I think she has been amazing at overcoming that in her own personal life and having dogs of her own. Many people never achieve that ability to look past a traumatic event and progress like she has.

 

I think a lot of this was a frightened, knee-jerk reaction that was intensified by a traumatic history. d I'm hoping that with time to assess what went wrong (which has been done), determining how to manage group and child-present situations better in the future (which I think has been done), and a chance to discuss and compromise where to go from here, that she and her husband may find a reasonable solution that works for both of them and for the dogs.

 

I certainly wish them all the very best possible outcome to this.

[Riley-dog]

I am definitely female... I don't remember ever seeing a place to select gender so it must have been the default.

 

Thank you all for the kind posts and support. You've reminded me of the person I thought I was and would like to be and lent strength to my convictions.

 

My husband has shown no ill will towards Riley these past few days and even seemed to be bonding with him tonight when the fireworks frightened Riley into cowering on his lap. He has not growled at him in several days. He's been remarking at how good he has been. I'm hoping that letting some more time pass will soften him and when the conversation arises again I will propose that we simply wait to have children if he feels so strongly that we not have the dogs then. I am 29, he is 27 so we have some time and I feel that is a fair compromise.

 

My first post here was in the midst of a long night of screaming, tears and anger. I felt pressured to react and decide immediately. I needed help. We've revisited the conversation a few times but nerves are still frayed.

 

I had not thought of the possibility that I would resent him for making me give up Riley but I feel that would be the case.

 

This marriage thing is hard.

[rushdoggie]

This marriage thing is hard.

 

Sometimes, yes. Hang in there.

[Liz P]

Just wait until you have kids and need to agree on how best to raise them!

[Gideon's girl]

Yes, marriage is hard, but if it were easy, it wouldn't be worth it.

[Kelleybean]

Yep it is hard. Children REALLY complicate things too. My advice after 28 yrs of a great marriage, is wait a bit before having kids. You can work out alot of the kinks before things get really crazy. We waited 5 yrs, and I'm sooo glad we did! Marriage is all about compromise and communication, from BOTH partners.

[Gloria Atwater]

I am definitely female... I don't remember ever seeing a place to select gender so it must have been the default.

 

Thank you all for the kind posts and support. You've reminded me of the person I thought I was and would like to be and lent strength to my convictions.

 

My husband has shown no ill will towards Riley these past few days and even seemed to be bonding with him tonight when the fireworks frightened Riley into cowering on his lap. He has not growled at him in several days. He's been remarking at how good he has been. I'm hoping that letting some more time pass will soften him and when the conversation arises again I will propose that we simply wait to have children if he feels so strongly that we not have the dogs then. I am 29, he is 27 so we have some time and I feel that is a fair compromise.

 

My first post here was in the midst of a long night of screaming, tears and anger. I felt pressured to react and decide immediately. I needed help. We've revisited the conversation a few times but nerves are still frayed.

 

I had not thought of the possibility that I would resent him for making me give up Riley but I feel that would be the case.

 

This marriage thing is hard.

 

 

Dear lady, I commend you for taking all our various outbursts and expressions of emotion with such grace.

 

And I will also commend your decision to let time pass. Time will allow you to continue working with Riley and to help him and your husband build their relationship. Time will allow innocent Sarah to remain and work her gentle magic and continue as her own form of doggie ambassador between her race and your husband, as well.

 

Yes, marriage is hard! I've been married for 30 years and there are always ups and downs and train wrecks. The thing to remember is that nobody remains constant: we all change and evolve over time, and we change as we progress through our individual life experiences.

 

What makes it work is to always cultivate communication, respect and forgiveness - between each other and in the world you walk through together. This event with Riley, however traumatic, may well be your first real test. How do you come together in this, and work towards a mutually agreeable solution?

 

Because compromises that are made grudgingly or in the heat of emotion will not rest well with anyone, and if you give up Riley in the current circumstances, you will resent and regret it. It's just human nature. So ... don't go there! Let time do its work, and put any dire decisions regarding Riley off as long as possible. Who knows how things may change in just a few months time? Who knows, you may discover these early changes have blossomed into something wonderful.

 

Best of luck, and many blessings to you and yours in the New Year.

 

~ Gloria

[Eileen Stein]

Riley-dog, I changed your profile from "Male" to "Female."

 

The approach you're taking sounds like a good one to me.

[Cody & Duchess]

Yes-marriage is hard. I have an exceptional Aunt who has taught me to try and breath and find the humor in what is in front of you. Pause, breath and smile. This weekend we just had a four day visit from a 5 and 13 year old ( we have 4 dogs). Even with lectures about "don't chase the dogs, don't scare the dogs, etc) we had to stay on top of it 24/7. Kids got time out, dogs got time out..... They all had a fun time. Get your husband to be Mr. Treat man for Riley, you will be amazed how quickly bonds develop. Good luck

[urge to herd]

I had not thought of the possibility that I would resent him for making me give up Riley but I feel that would be the case.

 

This marriage thing is hard.

 

You are doing a very difficult thing, and as Gloria says, you're doing it with grace. Yes, the marriage thing is very hard. For me, sustaining an intimate, ever-changing relationship over time is a supreme challenge. My marriage has brought me such joy, and it has humbled me, too.

 

Thank you for sharing this with us. A suggestion - please consider some counseling for the dog-bite you had as a child. Yes, it was many years ago, and you're a grown-up now There is strong research to suggest that trauma at a young age has more impact than trauma when older. And, you not only had the original trauma, but you had medical care afterward that must have frightened you and your family a great deal.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Little Bo Boop]

One time when I was about 4 years old my Mom came into the kitchen one evening. What she found was me and our dog, Punkin (a JRT), sitting side by side - me in my high chair and Punkin on the floor next to me. Each of us had a steak in hand (paw?), and we were just happily gnawing away each on our respective steaks. I guess that left Mom with only two steaks to cook that night. It's a good thing that she found that quite hysterical.

 

Punkin and I shared a piece of cheese every morning. Sometimes we even shared two. Sometimes I also climbed into bed with my dad and stuffed it in his ear (after chewing it up good first). Punkin usually went with me. She often climbed in with her dog bowl and got up on his chest, underneath his t-shirt, so that she could be nose to nose when he woke up. You know, in case he wanted to feed her from there. I think he was sort of non-plussed to wake with a dog and a food bowl under his shirt, and cheese in his ear... with two sets of beady eyes staring at him. Funny how thinking of it even many years later makes me giggle.

 

I don't ever remember being bit by Punkin, but I sure got nailed several times by my grandfather's little Chihuahua, Pixie.

 

I got nailed by an ostrich at a zoo once. My mom TOLD ME not to put my hand up to the fence, and I did. *shrug* Not only did I get nailed, but I also got in big trouble.

 

To the OP: I hope that the two of you will be able to find some middle ground. My heart aches for you when I see what you guys are going through right now.

 

 

You, Punkin and your dad made me smile ;-)

[arf2184]

I hope you and your husband find a good common ground.

 

I can't imagine growing up without a dog (or two or three). My dogs taught me a lot and many times were (after a move) were my only friends. Yeah, I was nipped, scratched, knocked over, and even dragged down the pavement after a cat (me clinging to the leash because I wouldn't let go). It happens. But my injuries from bicycles and roller skates were far worse.

 

Neither of my current dogs are very kid tolerant. Bear nips and growls when kids get too loud or hyper. Meg used to hide from kids and would probably have bit if she couldn't escape them.

 

I have young cousins and nieces and nephews that come over sometimes and for the most part the dogs are kept separate. However, whenever any of the kids come to stay for more than a day, both kid and dogs get a lesson on how to behave around each other (with close supervision). None of these kids have dogs at home so its good for all involved. The kids are taught to be calm and wait for the dogs to come to them. Then they get to toss the dogs treats and play fetch with Meg. Over time, this has led to my dogs being more comfortable around kids and the kids learn how not to get bit.

 

Now I can pretty well trust Meg to be in the same room as long as I'm there to make sure they kids don't follow her around or try to hug her. She loves playing with kids but she needs to feel that she can escape them. Bear I will never trust around kids for more than it takes for them to tell him to do a trick or two and toss him a treat. He growls and feels the need to 'police' them.

[mja]

Another thing to consider in trying to raise children without a dog. They could turn out like me and than tell your husband he would be in for a big challenge. I asked for a dog every BD, every Christmas, everytime I saw a dog from the time I could talk. I saved my lunches and enticed dogs to follow me home, hoping my father would give in. Finally he allowed me to have an older dog with all the stipulations ie 'not in the house, not in the car' etc. etc. Well after a year of having my new, used dog, my father was transferred to Holland for a 2yr stay and of course decided I must give away my 'Joe'. I held fast, no way was I going to give up my dog and I refused to go to Holland. Thankfully my mother intervened and after my father left ahead of us, bought a plane ticket for my 'Joe'. We flew to New York and boarded a ship where Joe traveled first class (thats where the kennels were) and we traveled tourist, several decks below. In Holland, dogs were allowed everywhere, on the bus, in the stores, everywhere so having Joe with us never became the burden my father imagined it would be. I guess my point is that having a dog could have been a way for me to be closer to my father (he never admired my determination) instead of the big wall it built between us and remained there for many, many years.

 

So I hope for your kids sake that they are not born with the same insanity that I was, or if they are that your husband can find it within himself to support them in their god given desire.

[nancy]

As to marriage. Yeah, it can be a real challenge.

 

But I've spent 47 years training DH. Not done yet, but getting there. No way I'd start all over again. And I can't go up a ladder to clean the gutters. So I have to make do.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

My husband was a non-dog person. He had Dobies for protection in his backayard when he lived in the deep south but hadn't hsd dogs for years. We were living together in the Seattle area and I got a tiny white Border Collie. His first words out of his mouth when he saw her was "She is your dog and you take care of her, and I want nothing to do with her"

 

That lasted about a few days as I had to work and he was home, he had just moved up and looking for a job. So he took her out for potty breaks and she bonded to him....next thing I know he is teaching her to play frisbee and competing with her at State level, etc and one day at a potluck her is bragging about his dog, when all eyes turn to me, as he stated all this time "NOT HIS DOG" and we all laugh.....he was a dog person. I shugged my shoulders as she was really his dog, he just didn't know it when she first arrived.

 

Tess is his dog. He wanted to keep her. I bought her for $100 to prevent her from being shot with the intention of placing her. She never left. She is really ours but he loves her more than anything else in the world. It's hard to see a grown man cry when he pets his dog at night in the bed when we all snuggle.

 

People can change. He sure did. It took time but with the love of a dog, the hardest heart can soften.