freedomflyersflyball Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me on adding the ball to the box when training? My 1 yr old BC has just started her training this past August. She has a great box turn, until I try and add the ball. Then she just runs up hits it with her two front feet and brings me the ball. Any advice for that? Also, when she does get the ball, for her, its like the game is over. she brings it back, but its like she not in any hurry because she already has what she wants, so why rush. Thank you for your time, Ashley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet87 Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 While I am not 100% sure how to fix the turn, regarding the other matter of her not wanting to hurry and come back... Have you tried running away as soon as she gets to the box calling her name real excited like? Don't wait until she has turned around to head back, do it right before she hits the box. My heeler is the same way, he is a rocket going to the box, but coming back he is out for a Sunday drive! I found as soon as he is right about to get on the box if I call him in a high pitched, oober excited voice and immediately run the other way, it makes him come faster. I also use a second ball. I have it in my hand so he can see it, then I rewarded him with a toss of it once he crosses the line. Now of course in competition you can't throw the other ball, but I at least started this way in practice to get his excitement up. Now just having the extra ball in my hand works well, I don't have to throw it anymore, just a little toss for him to catch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 Can you post video without a ball and then with the ball? This will give us a better idea of what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFreshSoClean Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 yes, please on the video! Also watch it on QuickTime frame-by-frame and check her head position. You can often see that the dog gets so used to turning on the box without a ball that when they do it the head never makes it anywhere near where the ball will be. What reward are you using? Is it higher value that the ball? Can you lower the value of the ball in the box by putting a foam ball in the box and using a tennis ball as a reward? and so you don't think I'm some fly-by-nighter! Here's our youngest - he's a 2yo 55-pound malinois. This was one of his first times on the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freedomflyersflyball Posted October 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 Here is are some videos of her on the practice board. I don't have a box, but some time I bring one home from practice and I will get a video of her with no ball. I am planning on getting some velcro for her practice board. Will that help? What do you think of the videos? Is that right? She is using a tug now, instead of a ball. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAdPApk1WBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_0YGOvi3A0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X9AZBHrj_A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 So a couple things I noticed right off: 1. You need a higher jump board 2. Need a jump with a side on it (on side of her turn) as she goes very wide coming off the board 2 out of 3 times. If you are going to throw the ball even when practicing make sure to throw it straight out and not to the side. 3. One thing you can try if velcro doesn't work is - stand next to the board and have her take the ball from your hand while it is at the board. You may need to start with luring with the ball and her getting it from your hand further away and start getting your hand closer to the board. 4. On the box, you can try making a smaller board with matting and put it against the box at different angles and see if that helps getting the ball off the box. Again you can try the hand thing if needed. Sometimes I have found that if you alternate some hit its with adding a ball they can pick up what you want. 5. Make sure the ball is not triggered in the box. I would slow/stop the trigger and put the ball in the whole so they may hang a little but that will fix itself once the ball is triggered. Hope this helps some. It is hard to give advice when we don't know the turn was trained, what props, etc... These are just some ideas. I also don't like having much distance from the board/box when teaching the turn. If the dogs learns your movement for a turn when you are standing near the box, that can help them figure out a turn with a ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 Here is are some videos of her on the practice board. I don't have a box, but some time I bring one home from practice and I will get a video of her with no ball. I am planning on getting some velcro for her practice board. Will that help? What do you think of the videos? Is that right? She is using a tug now, instead of a ball. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAdPApk1WBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_0YGOvi3A0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X9AZBHrj_A The videos appear to be private. I can't view them. ETA: for whatever reason was able to view them this time. Nice looking dog. Advice remains same. 2-devils (Kim), I hadn't seen your post before mine, so handing her the ball as she turns seems to be independent suggestions from each of us Suggest always integrating the ball into her turn. Yes, velcro, or any way to get the ball into picture is good idea. May get negative replies, yet my suggestion is to not use food lure on end of stick to teach the turn. Taught my dog the turn by simply running up to board on leash and verbally calling her to turn correct direction. Athletic dogs will use the board to bank their turns. After couple of these exercises, I played ball with her a little. Then with ball in hand and dog on leash, ran to board and more-or-less handed her the ball as she turned. This lead to placing ball on board for her to retrieve as I continued to help her on-leash. As I recall had her doing fairly good turns off-leash in about 20 minutes. After she had the rudiments of turn in place, local fly-ball club offered mandatory class using food lure on stick, which really messed her up for a while. Example of every handler having to move in lock-step through each phase of pre-planned mass-produced dog training, regardless whether dog or handler needed that portion of the lesson. Thankful that dogs are resilient, and can take a good deal of poor training, yet not have long-lasting after-effects. -- Best wishes, TEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFreshSoClean Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Here is are some videos of her on the practice board. I don't have a box, but some time I bring one home from practice and I will get a video of her with no ball. I am planning on getting some velcro for her practice board. Will that help? What do you think of the videos? Is that right? She is using a tug now, instead of a ball. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAdPApk1WBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_0YGOvi3A0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X9AZBHrj_A Here's what I can see. First off, put your other dog away and have it be a training session. I would hate to have you have a crash or not be able to reward her because there's another dog out there. Higher prop with sides. You can take an upright off of two jumps and put them next to each other for a wider jump to use as a prop. She's super wide on the first one. This means that when you get ready to put her in a lane - she's going to have to take a couple of extra strides to get back into the lane. And the person passing into her doesn't have the easiest time getting a good visual. We have done tossed reward but toss in the direction of the inside of the lane. in the second one, you toss away from the lane which encourages her to go wide. The third one you throw in the correct direction and you can see she does try to get that ball and turn a little tighter. My last suggestion would be to have that special reward and stick with it. create a pattern and ritual around training so she begins to understand what you are doing. For our dogs, that reward only happens during training and flyball. In fact, our youngest has started getting super excited when he sees my partner grab her gloves - because it's flyball time. good luck and keep with it! She looks like a great little dog and the prep will only make her a safer and awesomer flybal dog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freedomflyersflyball Posted October 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Thanks for all of the great advice and comments! I will make the adjustments and try and make a new video soon! Also!! I am getting my second Border Collie soon! The litter is due on the 4th and I am planning on getting another girl, just not sure what color I should get??? Hopefully they will be around the same size (23.5lb 18")I am so excited about this new puppy! Can someone give me some advice on how to prep this dog to be a great flyball dog?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Puppy recalls on the flat are great to a tug preferable if tug motivated. If that is solid add a solid dog doing side by side recalls, possibly at more of a distance and then get closer as needed. Opposing recalls which can teach a dog to pass without even working it much Work on switching a ball for a tug... Work on target training - feet to hand (dog needs to reach up until up on back legs), then feet to a target (lid), move target to wall or something to start working the puppy to snap off (no turn at this point,just front paws) - then you can add the board with the target on it high up and work the turn at that point As SoFreshSoClean basically says is not all dogs learn the box the same way. When I teach classes I don't teach the turn the above way but did teach my new puppy this way. I started the target training when he was young so he had the foundation to start working the turn when he was a little older. For classes I teach more of a lure but not with a stick. Folks in classes normally want a faster result and many dogs have learned the lure way without a problem but truthfully I try not to use food unless the dog is not toy motivated... You will need to figure out what works for you and your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFreshSoClean Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Also!! I am getting my second Border Collie soon! The litter is due on the 4th and I am planning on getting another girl, just not sure what color I should get??? Hopefully they will be around the same size (23.5lb 18")I am so excited about this new puppy! Can someone give me some advice on how to prep this dog to be a great flyball dog?! 2 Devils and I seem to do a lot of the same prep work for puppies. Make it short and sweet. Something else to try is to let the dog in a smaller enclosed space. Just let it wander for a few seconds (like 3 to start) and then call BIG and run away with your toy tug. Mae sure that you provide puppy with a nice clean visual to grab and have a nice game. release and repeat. oh and color should be the LAST thing on your mind. Temperament, personality, and structure should be your criteria - as cute as one puppy may be, it might not be the one for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freedomflyersflyball Posted November 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 oh and color should be the LAST thing on your mind. Temperament, personality, and structure should be your criteria - as cute as one puppy may be, it might not be the one for you. Well, I will be picking this pup only a day or two after they are born. What should I look for? Will there be any differences when they are only a couple days old? The reason I have to pick it then is because the lady I am getting the puppy from sells them so fast if I don't pick and put a deposit on one now, they will be sold in a couple weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Well, I will be picking this pup only a day or two after they are born. What should I look for? Will there be any differences when they are only a couple days old? The reason I have to pick it then is because the lady I am getting the puppy from sells them so fast if I don't pick and put a deposit on one now, they will be sold in a couple weeks. I know you can not change the breeder's practice of how people pick puppies, but FWIW - many breeders will wait until the pups are older (6-7 weeks old) before picking. That is because you can not tell much about a pup's temperment/personality/drive when they are only 2-3 days old. (and even then, it is still not 100% reliable). At 2-3 days old, you are purely picking on visuals, with a little luck thrown in (i.e. what color and/or pattern is it). And the 'picking' is not necessarily done by the buyer. A good breeder will try to match the temperment/drive of the pup to the type of home requesting a puppy. For example, a low drive puppy should go to a pet home, whereas a high drive puppy should go to a working home. You, as the buyer, do not have much choice - unless there are 2 or 3 high-drive puppies in the litter, and you are the first to choose between them. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freedomflyersflyball Posted November 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Ok, I got some velcro, a higher jump board, and add the ball. Is there anything else I need to fix? Thank you! www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUCusPZl2Qc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Now that is looking much better. When you go to a real box, you need to have the exact same props, etc... still not triggered ball in the box - just a dead ball until she learns to get her mouth over the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Ok, I got some velcro, a higher jump board, and add the ball. Is there anything else I need to fix? Thank you! www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUCusPZl2Qc Very nice turns. Good job. -- TEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freedomflyersflyball Posted December 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 Just wanted to leave a update on how my BC was doing in flyball. Here is a video of her hitting the box with no ball. I have just started adding the ball to the box every time today and she is doing pretty good. I will try and post a video soon. I am new to flyball and just want to make sure this looks ok. Does she need to be any higher on the box? I have seen some videos on youtube were people have a really high prop. Thanks! Ashley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Nichols Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Ashley, It looks good. You might want to consider pulling the upright on the left over a bit. Your dog looks like she's backing off that upright quite a bit and it's making her turn on just the right edge of the box. I think if you just push it over a bit it'll give her more room to turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freedomflyersflyball Posted December 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Ashley, It looks good. You might want to consider pulling the upright on the left over a bit. Your dog looks like she's backing off that upright quite a bit and it's making her turn on just the right edge of the box. I think if you just push it over a bit it'll give her more room to turn. Ok, I will do that. I am adding the ball in now and she is doing good, it's just slower. Will it speed up in time, as she gets used to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFreshSoClean Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 It might speed up as she gets her reps in. It also might not. I agree with Dana that she needs more room at her head in order to get her full back feet on the box. Something that I keep in mind with box work is that the dog need to line its mouth up with the hole to catch the ball fast and clean. Many, if not the vast majority, of the time this doesn't happen when the dog is doing turns without a ball. They'll turn too fast or too low and then that ball shows up and it's a shocker. In your most recent video, you can best see this with the last turn. She head is already rotating back into the lane before she's really "on" the box. and her head looks to be lower than the hole. So now that you've added the ball - she has to re-position her front end to catch it. Which means that she needs to figure out how to approach and stride into the box to get that mouth/head/front end in the right place for her. You can often best see this watching playback frame-by-frame. My youngest is very long loined and it took some work to get him positioned on the box correctly to get those feet in the right place AND his mouth/head. Also, make sure the box doesn't move at all. That can be worrisome for the dogs and they will begin to hang, stutter step, or stop trying to do a good turn b/c they don't feel that it's safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freedomflyersflyball Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Ok, she is catching the ball and doing good now. Is there anything else I need to change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freedomflyersflyball Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Here's another video of her practicing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 She's looking really nice. Are you having ongoing issues with dropped balls or was the one in the video a one-off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freedomflyersflyball Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 She's looking really nice. Are you having ongoing issues with dropped balls or was the one in the video a one-off? Thanks. No, usually she won't spit the ball out. I think it was just a one time thing because she never spits it early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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