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AKC dog in Finals?

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Not trying to stir anything up, just curious if anyone knows anything about this dog? He has obviously earned points in some big trials in CA. It looks like his breeder is Contact Point but I can't find the sire/dam on her website.

Burks, Michael CA O Sport(Just Do It) M 2/06 Karen Moureaux Hibs X Tilt HSAS AKC

 

cheers Lani

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If it's a Contact Point dog, then it could certainly be registered AKC, but that's not the same as saying it's show bred, FWIW (and in the case of Contact Point, it looks like show breeding isn't on her radar, though there's plenty o' color!).

 

So it's not really any different than someone buying from any breeder and then registering the dog with AKC. I believe there have been other dual-registered dogs at the finals.

 

J.

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yes there has been. and I'd disagree on the point that it is different from someone buying and registering AKC. The difference is CP is NOT specifically selecting for work-but does consider it as part of the breeding plan. someone breeding for work should be selecting FOR work, not colours nor unproven dogs that are 'colourful'

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Yes but interesting that this dog is NOT registered with ABCA. Only with AKC. And from a breeder who is primarily an Agility/Flyball = Sport breeder.

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It is obvious that this dog is running to a high Open level so is an accomplished working dog. Just curious about his pedigree; is it all 'sport' or is there some good working dogs a generation or so back? Is this an exceptional handler who has access/$$ to top clinicians or ? Plus his Nursery dog is a well bred working dog.... Like I said earlier - just curious - no iron in the fire/don't know the guy or his dog. Just wondering from folks who have seen the dog run in CA? Or know the pedigree behind?

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Mike's a nice, low key guy, and Sport is a nice dog. He's come down south and worked dogs with us a time or two in San Diego. I had a few pictures of him in the gallery of pictures I took at last year's finals, at which they did well.

 

IMG6626-M.jpg

 

Last Year's Sheepdog Finals

 

There were some people who were very interested in the dog because he was a merle. I was not interested in following up on those questions, since I kind of hate it that people get carried away with a pretty color that has such a potential for causing trouble (accidental merle x merle litters do happen; look at all the blind and/or deaf dogs on Aussie rescue sites if you doubt it).

 

Anyhow, good luck to Mike and Sport, and all the wonderful dogs and handlers here in Klamath Falls! I'll start posting pictures on Tuesday when things get started. There's a lot of hard prep work going on now, and it's going to be a great trial.

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Dear Doggers,

 

At least two AKC reg (dual reg?) dogs have run in previous Finals. Less than 1%. Unlike AKC events, sheepdog trials are open to any dog. ANY dog. If a dog wins enough points he may then go on to enter our National Finals.

 

That's a good thing. Sheepdogs aren't defined by their owners right/wrong beliefs/ institutional affiliations or pieces of paper. They are defined by their abilities. In North America a substantial majority of able sheepdogs are ABCA/CBCA/ISDS registered or their descendents. But not every single able sheepdog.

 

Good luck to Mike and Sport.

 

Donald McCaig

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There are at least three dogs running that are not registered in any registry. I like that any dogs good enough to earn enough points to qualify are able to run in the finals. As Mr. McCaig pointed out, sheepdogs should be defined by their abilities, not owner politics.

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Contact Point appears to infuse plenty of known working genetics into her colored sport breeding program. I've seen Mike and Sport at trials many times...they are a good team and could do well this Finals. I wish them luck...but maybe not as much luck as I wish for myself :-)

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yes there has been. and I'd disagree on the point that it is different from someone buying and registering AKC. The difference is CP is NOT specifically selecting for work-but does consider it as part of the breeding plan. someone breeding for work should be selecting FOR work, not colours nor unproven dogs that are 'colourful'

Pam,

I think we all understand the argument about breeding for work. The OP asked about an AKC dog being in the finals. I simply pointed out that it's possible for an AKC-registered dog to run in the finals. Contact Point's website makes it quite clear where the breeder's real interests lie.

 

Still, part of her program or not, she apparently bred at least one dog who is able to work well enough to make it to the finals.

 

P.S. I looked at the pedigrees; John Holman's Mike has some nice working dogs in there. Fleet's pedigree was too fuzzy to read. Both pedigrees are ABCA pedigrees, so there's no reason Sport couldn't have been ABCA registered. I'd guess it just wasn't important to his owner.

 

J.

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Not sure if it was or wasn't important to Mike. I will ask him about this if I get a chance, but I think that Sport might be his first working dog. Obviously a naturally talented handler would be a big advantage to any dog!

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Thanks for the replies. Best of luck to Mike, Elizabeth and everyone at Finals. Like I said, was just curious. In the same light, I wonder if someone can report how many other 'colored' dogs will be running? Merles? Red dogs? Just a useless piece of information but interesting.

cheers Lani

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I know the dog "Hollman's Mike" Mikey. He could have been a really good working dog but his previous owner didn't work him to his full potential. A Friend of mine tried to buy him and she would have done very well with him, but they decided to sell him to Karen instead and she has bred him to death. Very sad, I really liked that dog.

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From the link to the litter page posted in an earlier post in this thread it appears that Sport's sire and dam were bred together 5 times in three and a half years and produced close to 40 offspring. That's a lot of puppies.....glad Sport is doing well and hope he does a good job at the Finals....Good luck to all the handlers and dogs at the Finals this year.

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Thanks for the replies. Best of luck to Mike, Elizabeth and everyone at Finals. Like I said, was just curious. In the same light, I wonder if someone can report how many other 'colored' dogs will be running? Merles? Red dogs? Just a useless piece of information but interesting.

cheers Lani

I think you will oftentimes find a merle or two (Dick Williams has run a merle, I remember, and Rose Anderson runs merles) and a few red dogs, perhaps. Definitely, colored dogs are a small minority.

 

I think, though, that while few colored dogs are successful at higher levels of trialing, there is less bias towards them than there might have once been - rather, I think most people are willing to judge a dog on its performance and not on its appearance.

 

Was it last year that a red dog won on of the Finals across the pond? Or the Supreme? I don't remember for sure.

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any dogs good enough to earn enough points to qualify are able to run in the finals.

 

This is as it should be. Dogs can't read whether their papers say "American Kennel Club" or "American Border Collie Association" across the top.

 

judge a dog on its performance and not on its appearance.

 

We can hope this will become the norm. I find it ironic that while stockdogs folks are quick to criticize the show Border Collie folks about their cookie cutter black & white rough coated dogs, ever-reminding them of the variety of appearance in the Border Collie, they (the stockdogs folks) seem to be the last to accept any variance in the breed beyond white factoring and smooth coats.

 

I am not excusing non-working breeders who make mating choices based on color, or those who sell "colorful" puppies for more money. Just pointing out that in the stockdog community, there still seems to be quite a bit of color bias, which is why I edited my quote from Sue's post so tightly. I've only got black and white dogs, but even I feel there is a color bias.

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Is that perceived "color bias" due to the fact that there have been very few dogs of color that have ever distinguished themselves on the trial field - and yet there seem to be quite a few breeders who tout their dogs that are bred for color?

 

I believe that when dogs of color prove themselves on the trial field, they are generally given as much respect as any other dog. There was quite a nice interview with Rose Anderson in the recent Sheepdog News, about herself and her merle dogs. I think a red dog won either one of the UK and Ireland Nationals or the Supreme last year.

 

I think the issue seems to be that for most people who breed colored dogs, the color seems to take precedence over working ability. That seems fairly obvious when you read the websites of those who promote color in their breedings, no matter what they might say to the contrary.

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Is that perceived "color bias" due to the fact that there have been very few dogs of color that have ever distinguished themselves on the trial field - and yet there seem to be quite a few breeders who tout their dogs that are bred for color?

 

I believe that when dogs of color prove themselves on the trial field, they are generally given as much respect as any other dog. There was quite a nice interview with Rose Anderson in the recent Sheepdog News, about herself and her merle dogs. I think a red dog won either one of the UK and Ireland Nationals or the Supreme last year.

 

I think the issue seems to be that for most people who breed colored dogs, the color seems to take precedence over working ability. That seems fairly obvious when you read the websites of those who promote color in their breedings, no matter what they might say to the contrary.

 

I perceive a general AVOIDANCE of other-than-black/tri by most working stockdog folks--at least in my area. How could a dog of color--an appropriately working-bred dog--distinguish itself on the trial field when people seem to go out of their way NOT to have one? For example: red happens. Unless the breeder is so biased AGAINST red that they genetically test sire and dam to ensure there are never any carrier to carrier breedings (or know based on pedigrees that both parents potentially carry it), it is going to happen. But where are they? Of course there are fewer red dogs than black, but the numbers on the trial field seem disproportionate (just think of how many chestnut horses there are in most breeds!). There are some red and some merle dogs in my area, by the way; I'm not saying there are none. And to reiterate, I'm not at all defending breeders who breed for any reason other than working ability or who "tout their dogs that are bred for color."

 

It seems to me that people are quick to make a judgement about the owner of a not-black dog, making an assumption that the person chose it BECAUSE of its color, or assuming that the dog is probably out of questionable/sport breeding, or any number of silly things.

 

Toddy Lambe won the Supreme with the red Craig several years back, but I don't know the colors of the recent winners you may be thinking of, Sue.

 

And same as for everyone: my perception is my reality. :)

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Megan,

You're right that there is an avoidance, and a lot of that is probably based in historical old wive's (old shepherds"?) tales as much as anything else. But as has often been said here before, red just happens, merle doesn't.

 

I ran a red dog (Sam Furman's Jill, who had plenty of success with Sam) and red tri in open (went to the finals with her), and there are several in the GA/KY region that are running well in open trials now. But there is also a very prominent handler who doesn't believe that red dogs hold up as well as B&W dogs and so that one person's bias can affect the choices made by a lot of other people who respect that person.

 

I have a mostly white dog. When he was born, everyone but *one* person said they'd take any pup but the white one, all because of the whole white dog bias. He wasn't my pick either, but not because of his color. I wanted a female. I ended up keeping him because he picked me. He's a great dog. When I'm hired for set out, he's my go to dog. He can move anything. He as doing well in open before I lost my job and quit trialing. And although he's proven himself, there are still people that will repeat to me the reasons why white dogs aren't suitable for working sheep (as he moves sheep their dogs can't).

 

I can't speak to why there are so many chestnut horses and not so many red dogs on the trial field, but it is possible to breed two dogs who carry red and not get any red pups, so the statistics can work against you as easily as they can work for you.

 

At any rate, all things being equal, I think people do choose based on personal preferences on looks. I *prefer* a smooth coated, prick-eared dog. I like red. I wouldn't turn a red dog down. In the litter than contained Twist there were two red puppies. I would gladly have taken one of the red pups, but Twist just "spoke" to me, so she's the one I chose.

 

It seems to me that people are quick to make a judgement about the owner of a not-black dog, making an assumption that the person chose it BECAUSE of its color, or assuming that the dog is probably out of questionable/sport breeding, or any number of silly things.

 

I admit to being one of those people, but only when it comes to merle dogs, largely because there just aren't many exceptional working merles out there, so finding one would cerainly be more difficult than finding a red dog or a white (or mostly white) dog. The fact is that the dog that started this thread was from a sport breeding from a sport breeder (just look at her website; most of what's plastered there is agility stuff; all references to herding are to AKC titles). Even the sire of the dog in question, who does appear to have nice dogs in his pedigree, seems to have gotten only AKC herding titles. And most of the brightly colored dogs I see are in the hands of sport owners, so it's not surprising that one would assume, when one sees such a dog on the trial field, that it came from a sport breeding. Most of the merles I see are running in the novice levels and are in fact the result of sport breedings with owners/handlers who have crossed over from the sport world. So it's not as if people are making this assumption without some real basis in fact.

 

I would *love* to have another red dog. But I wouldn't breed to try to get one. I'll admit that as I waited for that last pup to come in Twist's litter I was hoping it would be red. Instead it was mostly white. ;) And if a litter I'm interested in happens to have a red pup, I'd be happy to take it, as long as it "spoke" to me!

 

J.

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I like color that is not common(had Appaloosas, a palomino, 2 buckskins & a red roan pony over the years).

I love red dogs. And freckles. I have one - I didn't choose him, he was the only one left available. I am not keen on most tri's or white heads or blue eyes but I chose a pup with all three. He does have both black & brown freckles which kinda saved him. LOL I like prick ears but only got a classic bl&wh with one up/one down; didn't choose her either, only female left. Never even saw a picture of her before she arrived. I got Blair as a 2 yr. old & wasn't keen on his big white head but now I kinda like it as he isn't getting grey in his old age. :-)

cheers Lani

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In the same light, I wonder if someone can report how many other 'colored' dogs will be running? Merles? Red dogs? Just a useless piece of information but interesting.

cheers Lani

 

I don't pay a lot of attention to the color of dogs (other than when I'm taking photos and am trying to sample diversity)... but a FB friend of mine recently posted some photos of Lyle Lad's Gin, and she appears to be a red and white dog. So that's one, anyway, at the Finals. I'm sure there are more.

 

Interestingly, at an Open trial I attended last weekend, there were NO red and whites (or red tris) running, or any merles, IIRC, out of ~ 57 dogs entered. But there were a couple of sables. 'Course these dogs aren't running in the Finals, else they wouldn't be running at an Open trial in Maryland the preceding weekend. Don't know how to factor in the filter that geographic proximity (or lack thereof) represents, so take this statistic for the single observation that it represents.

 

Freckles, yes, I saw lots of those. White heads, blue eyes, all kinds of ears, all kinds of coats...

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I saw Lyle Lad run at the Vashon Sheepdog Classic and it was a red dog I believe. However it was such a smokin' run I don't think anyone was looking at the color.

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Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

 

Given enough time, love and determination it is possible to train up most (no, not all) untalented, working bred Border Collies to run open trials. On one or two lucky days he/she may be in the ribbons And, of course, he/she will be a benefice on the home farm.

 

It is very, very hard to breed, nurture, rear, train and trial a sheepdog to be competitive at our National Finals/Soldier Hollow/Meeker/Bluegrass. That's why many top handlers buy and sell all those dogs. They're looking for the One.

 

If your ambition - nothing wrong with it -is to have fun with your dog, enjoy a weekend with folks who really do know dogs during a well earned break from daily concerns, you may well be interested in whether a potential pup/dog is red, conventionally marked, white or merle.

 

But, if you want a dog that might win a Double Lift, you can't distract yourself with trivia. You'll have too many other things on your mind.

 

Donald McCaig

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