How widespread is rescuers hate for breeders?

[terrecar]

What Julie said

[Sue R]

"Substandard breeder" doesn't necessarily conjur the same sort of image in someone's mind's eye the way "puppy mill" does. It's why we refer to "factory farms," for example. The words themselves evoke images and feelings that wouldn't necessarily be triggered by a more mundane term. It's all about spin and what you want people to imagine, good or bad, when they hear a particular word or words.

 

J.

Precisely.

[MommaLove]

[Gideon's girl]

Love it.

[terrecar]

Just to put it in perspective, type "puppy mill" into a Google or Youtube search engine. The abuse and neglect you will find might warrant emotionally charged language.

[juliepoudrier]

FWIW, the beauty of language is that it can evoke emotions, ideas, mental images, etc. I'm one of the folks who refers to any high-volume breeder as a miller, although some folks that fall into that category actually treat their dogs very well.

 

But let's face it, the sights you'll see if you search as Terrecar suggests could also be viewed "substandard" by any definition of the word, but it's much easier to ignore substandard conditions because it's such a clean, impersonal term (at least if all you're seeing is a word and not actually pictures). Using more colorful, evocative language has a very real purpose. Using it doesn't mean it's wrong to do so (because of course it's just a different way of saying something), but I think we do need to be aware of why people use the terminology they do, rather than just go for the most "clinical" term. Two words can mean essentially the same thing, but one may be more likely to evoke a more emotional response. There's nothing wrong with that if you're trying to make a point or get people to act. But it never hurts to know that there's a reason why some words are chosen over others (after all political spin, the whole world of marketing and advertizing, PR, etc., are all based on eliciting a particular emotional--conscious or not--response and using words or images to get that response).

 

J.

[Tea]

I don't get the cartoon?

[SS Cressa]

Not sure how common this is and it would lead to tension between breeders, rescues, and buyers but rescues lying about the dogs back ground. In the last week I have heard of two cases of the dogs being touted as coming from a certain breeder or being a show dog and finding out that nope rescue just made it up to get people to adopt. The one breeder doesn't even breed dogs anymore for the last 2 years and they are claiming its her dog and its only 1?!

The other dog had the breeder panicking try to find what happen only to find out it not her dog and they just were using her pics?! But they are still claiming its a well bred casted off dog.

[MaryP]

Not sure how common this is and it would lead to tension between breeders, rescues, and buyers but rescues lying about the dogs back ground.

 

Why single out rescues? Do they have the monopoly on lying? Come on! And just because you heard something doesn't make it true. Ever hear of the game telephone??

 

FWIW, I've never lied about a dog's background to try and get someone to adopt it. Why would I do that? That's just asinine and serve no purpose. But, if you want to swap stories, I can tell you some stories about breeders who lied about their dogs in order to dump them on rescue. So, lying is an equal-opportunity craft.

[terrecar]

FWIW I've dealt with a few purebred rescues and not one of them has used the dog's breeding as a 'selling point'. That just wasn't their focus. Why would they bother? The focus of every purebred rescue that I've dealt with has been to place their dogs based on compatibility with the potential adopter's lifestyle. This was gauged on observation of the individual dog; not its bloodline (which was often not even known).

[SS Cressa]

a rescue or shelter posted on pet finder about a dog(1 year old) from a breeder that stop breeding 2 years ago. Yes I did see it. And yes I told them it wasn't her dog since she isn't breeding anymore and yes I did contact the breeder.

 

And yes another incident just occurred with a different breeder. At least this time they took down the false pic but are still saying it.

The second one I didn't contact the breeder over... but I did see the before and after page.

 

You might not be doing this but some groups obviously are. This just add fuels to the fire of all breeder are bad.

 

This is just hear say but it helps increase traffic to their site and possible get more dogs adopted/looked at.

[terrecar]

Well I have seen a retired champion on Petfinder, and I knew the handler (but not sure if she was also the breeder). It was from a breed club (to which the handler, and likely the breeder, belongs). They also do 'rescue' (though I don't know how much of that is sweeping behind their own collective back door--not saying that's a bad thing--and how much is truly rescue).

 

ETA: My point here is that not every group calling themselves a rescue is organized under IRC* 501c(3) as a charitable organization. At least one 'rescue' that I know of--and that lists itself on Petfinder--is an extension of a breed club. So, you know, you have to define your terms.

 

* That's the right acronym. I swear.

[bc friend]

The rescue I volunteer with does occasionally get purebreds with papers. (This year, we've had at least 6 w/ABCA registration) They have ranged in age from an 8 week old puppy sold to a man in his 80's whose family convinced him to surrender the puppy to a 5 yr old whose owner died. While we may tell the prospective adopter that the dog is a purebred and the circumstances of its surrender to us, we do not disclose the name of the breeder nor do we provide the dog's registration papers.

 

Just as there are many responsible breeders who carefully place their pups, there are equally many rescues that carefully place their dogs w/o lying or misleading applicants about the dog's histories or pedigrees.

 

From reading this thread over the days, it appears there is a long way to go for breeders and rescues to truly respect each other and the work each performs.

[geonni banner]

Just as there are many responsible breeders who carefully place their pups, there are equally many rescues that carefully place their dogs w/o lying or misleading applicants about the dog's histories or pedigrees.

 

This was also my experience in Collie rescue. At least 1/3 of the breeders I knew were active in rescue. They not only took back their own dogs at any age, but they took Collies, mixes and occasionally other breeds both as fosters for rescue groups or pulled dogs from pounds and shelters.

 

Not all breeders are at odds with rescue and vice-versa. I received help in cash and in kibble from breeders. All were AKC conformation breeders. These breeders were also known for bucking trends and refusing to do merle-to-merle breedings or breed dogs that were not normal-eyed. Sure, they were breeding for the conformation ring - in bed with the devil, as it were. But at the time it was seen as status quo. I didn't start to get a glimmer that the AKC was a "Sith" organization until I was almost out of rescue, and since the were so many "Jedi-like" breeders in my acquaintance, I didn't give it a lot of thought.

 

I've also known rescues that kept too many animals in puppy-mill conditions, lied about health issues with their dogs, under-vetted and were impossible to deal with. Nearly all the rescues I knew at least occasionally fudged on age-estimates for older dogs - the reasoning being that "no one wants old dogs." I've seen toothless, half-blind canine senior citizens advertised at "about 5 years of age." "His teeth? Oh, he got that way from chewing rocks." A convenient excuse, since rock-chewers do wear their teeth down at an alarming rate.

 

Some of the rescue people I dealt with were always going on about those "evil breeders" turning out dozens of litters per year, hiding the defective pups and abandoning them once they were sold. I had heard that there were people like that, but I didn't know any, and had seen evidence of very few, so I tended to blow off such claims as overzealous hyperbole.

 

I've also know a great many rescue outfits that went all out for their charges, and were scrupulously honest about their health, age and personalities.

 

Sometimes we get so caught up in the black and white of things, we don't see the many shades of gray. There are probably people right here on these Boards who will, at some point start cranking out candy-colored litters, and some currently breeding who will break all ties with the AKC, realize they are breeding (or just buying pups) for the wrong reasons and just stop. Stranger things have happened...

[Amelia]

Hello all,

 

As with all things, I feel that education is the key. We've all known good and bad breeders, rescues, buyers, sellers, owners. They will exist as long as *we* the general public, put up with it. Supply and demand.

 

Puppy mills will exist as long as there are buyers. Backyard breeders will breed as long as there is response to their ad/sign/whatever. Culture & socio-economics will perpetuate dogs left in tact until there is understanding.

 

I have knowledgable friends who honestly believe spaying/neutering is physically harmful to their dogs. Maybe it is, but how great is the risk when weighed against another *oops* breeding?

 

Even in our own sport, how often have we seen handlers breed really crummy dogs, because they just loved 'em so much? Or because they are resolutely kennel blind? Or because they have absolutely no idea what they are looking at/assessing?

 

All the time! But then you hear about these mediocre (at best) dogs "on a ranch working 500 ewes/cows/whatever." Yes but how well, and are they spayed/neutered? Or is the ranch owner just as ignorant about assessment?

 

People, you can buy better dogs than you can breed without being part of the problem!

 

And I love this question; "If there is no breeding, where will I buy my dog?" Realistically, how long before we have to worry? Not in my lifetime, and frankly, that is a problem I welcome. Much easier to solve than "we kill upwards of 3 millions dogs in this country each and every year." Much easier than; "He dies today!" Far more easily than; "I'm going to breed 'em and make some money!"

 

You ran across a rabid FB group. Right or wrong at least they're on the right side of dog over-population. I advocate no breed/no kill and rescue all the time. I don't breed, I have rescued and fostered/found homes for the homeless. I don't hate anybody, but I'm dismayed, it seems like every single day...

 

Stop the madness!

[vandog]

The (midwest based) rescue I used to volunteer from here and then had plenty of "dislike" for the shitty breeders that we all would have looked down upon anyway. Good breeders - no way. It helps that the majority of the people associated with the rescue did stuff with their Border Collies - herding, agility, you name it.

 

It bears mentioning that a few years ago they placed out several dogs from a stock dog trainer(s) who instead of retiring his 6+ year old dogs decided to run their through a sale. The rescue took them instead and found them great retirement homes. I gave them major kudos for that one.

[Amelia]

It bears mentioning that a few years ago they placed out several dogs from a stock dog trainer(s) who instead of retiring his 6+ year old dogs decided to run their through a sale

 

A sale? I'm only aware of 2 working dog sales in the US. Red Bluff and Denver Stock Show. It couldn't have been either of those, because a resuce would have to pay good money to get those dogs.

 

What sale? Where? What kind of sale?

[Ancient_Dog]

For Gosh sakes, don’t be so naïve. These Border Collies that end up in shelters come from someplace. Our rescue has pulled almost 300 Border Collies from shelters this year! That’s just one rescue. I don’t even want to think about the Border Collies that we cannot take because we are full or the dogs are too damaged. Surely you don’t think Old Hemp jumped the fence some 200 times last year and that ALL Border Collies that end in shelters are his progeny. I don’t think rescues as a whole hate all breeders, but certainly irresponsible breeding is a large part of the problem.

[juliepoudrier]

What sale? Where? What kind of sale?

When I hear/see the words "Midwest" and "dog sale" together, what comes to mind is the the dog auctions where millers buy and sell breeding animals (Google "dog auctions"), but I'm sure Vandog will clarify what s/he meant if that's not it. If this is what s/he was referring to, then that particular stockdog trainer(s) deserves a special place in hell.

 

J.

[Amelia]

Vandog's post makes no sense. Why would a trainer(s) "retire" a 6 year old dog? And why would a trainer(s) put a working dog through a miller's auction? Vandog, please explain. What kind of auction? What kind of stockdog trainer? What kind of dog? Oh, hell; who?

[mum24dog]

Why would a trainer(s) "retire" a 6 year old dog?

 

Because they want to make room for more and/or it isn't up to scratch?

 

A late friend acquired 3 of her trial dogs from the owners as follows -

5 year old trained bitch surplus to requirements

3 year old semi trained dog not performing as well as wanted

1 year old dog returned to breeder (can't remember why).

 

All 3 went to working homes when she died - the bitch was 9.

 

As for sales, I don't know how things work over there but here most working dogs aren't sold at sales like Skipton - they are sold at general stock auctions if not spit on the hand private sales.

[mum24dog]

For Gosh sakes, don’t be so naïve. These Border Collies that end up in shelters come from someplace.

 

"Failed sheepdog" is a common label for rescue BCs here and could cover a multitude of sins. I could cope with one whose "failure" resulted from a lack of interest, but not one whose was too interested. It's too dangerous and restricting in this country to have a non working dog that is obsessed with sheep because they are everywhere.

 

Some rescues build up a relationship with farmers and breeders and take their surplus and failures. Better than killing them by running over them with a tractor as has happened. It seems that rescue is also an option for the disposal of dogs with health problems that the breeder may not want the working world to know about like a friend's dog that came through rescue from a top trialler/breeder and has vasovagal syncope. Or am I too cynical?

 

Letting surplus pups go to unsuitable homes is also a big problem. Serious working breeders do it too. A couple of years ago we helped home a 13 week old bitch from a known breeder whose owner had just changed her mind, and then a 6 month old from the same litter needed a new home.

[terrecar]

For the working dog breeder who has produced an outstanding pup or pups, I can only imagine the satisfaction they must feel at seeing their pups bloom into talented workers or successful trialers. I would imagine there would be great satisfaction in watching their pups go to someone, perhaps even a "big hat", that would take them on to win trials. I would think the satisfaction would be magnified if one were to handle their own, home bred working dog successfully in trials. I guess just seeing their pups go on to work at all would be satisfying.

 

So, I do get it.

 

I just wanted to give a nod to thoughtful breeders; and no, I'm not clamoring for a puppy (lol). If I were looking to trial, I would save my money and go for a started dog (at least).

 

 

ETA: Why do I feel as though the last sentence of the first paragraph should read "that lived in the house that Jack built"? Good thing I am not a writer. My editor would dump me.

[mum24dog]

For the working dog breeder who has produced an outstanding pup or pups, I can only imagine the satisfaction they must feel at seeing their pups bloom into talented workers or successful trialers. I would imagine there would be great satisfaction in watching their pups go to someone, perhaps even a "big hat", that would take them on to win trials. I would think the satisfaction would be magnified if one were to handle their own, home bred working dog successfully in trials. I guess just seeing their pups go on to work at all would be satisfying.

 

I guess people who breed for conformation or sport would feel the same satisfaction in seeing the success of dogs they bred in their chosen field too.

[terrecar]

I guess people who breed for conformation or sport would feel the same satisfaction in seeing the success of dogs they bred in their chosen field too.

 

For the small time breeder I would say this is true. But does the umpteenth Sporting Fields or Bayshore champion really even register a blip on the affective scale anymore? And did we really need those kennels to pick up and 'improve'* the Border Collie in addition to their other breeds? I can't speak of sport breeders because I don't know any, but honestly, I would think the satisfaction for the aforementioned would be watered down by now. I mean no disrespect.

 

* That [improve] was even painful to type