How widespread is rescuers hate for breeders?

[NRhodes]

So I encountered something on the internet this evening that quite set me aback. Wanted to ask some questions about it and I know the BC boards has a healthy population of both rescuers and breeders and owners. What I was linked to was a hate group on Facebook created by rescuers to proclaim the utter evils of dog breeders. Among other things their posts say over and over that breeders are animal abusers, that all dogs should be spayed or neutered, and that shelters are overflowing with dogs being euthanized in endless numbers. When I asked questions, no they did not want to discuss ideas on educating owners, owners were not the problem, only breeders were the problem. I used the numbers that HSUS uses on their website to claim that we have a pet over population problem (so I'd guess possibly exaggerated?) to show them that actually despite the rise in the number of dogs and cats in the US the numbers of animals euthanized in shelters has actually dropped steadily to an all time low.

 

Quoting myself:

"Between 1973 and 1990 the number of animals euthanized went from 20% to 4.5% even tho the total population of dogs and cats in the USA increased by 45 million. Recently the percentage of animals euthanized has gone down to 3% if you figure the percentage using the highest estimate of animals euthanized. If you figure the percentage using the lower end of the spectrum it's 2.4% but likely the actual number is somewhere in the middle. Still that is a HUGE success. Especially when you take into account that there are 164 million cats and dogs in the USA that only 3% are euthanized as unadoptable. I got these numbers used to calculate these percentages straight from the ASPCA and HSUS websites."

 

They told me I was a liar and that my numbers were all wrong' date=' they were too low. I asked them what the actual numbers were. They told me they didn't have to prove themselves and banned me from posting on the page. I can still read it however. The group moderator repeatedly posted a picture stating the numbers of dogs killed in shelters yearly, guess what, they were the same exact numbers I had used to figure the percentages above.......

 

Some quotes from the page:

This page is for rescuers only, no animal abuser should be leaving any comment on here. So beware breeders, we not only don't care about you and your puppies, but we will also delete you. Have a wonderful day and happy breeding!

We need SPAY AND NEUTER LAWS! This country is spending too much money cleaning up after "breeders" and killing unwanted animals. I know that no kill is a huge issue for lots of people, and for me but we need to band together against the real cause of the problem: breeders!!

Omg Jill I've been saying the same thing. Honestly, spay and neuter laws should be set in place FOR SURE. It's the only way to ever get ahead. EVER.

I know some of you don't agree with PETA. But we have a few people we know (some of them on here) who are activists for PETA and who definitely do the right thing. They are like us against breeding and pro adopting, the difference is, they go out, demonstrate, educate and report people. I don't agree with everything PETA does but if it comes to educating people about overpopulation and adoption, they have our support. If we lose some likes because of that, we can live with that. Getting the message out is more important to us.

These here were in response to someone saying that their father went and bought a dog from a responsible breeder:

they should not have a dog at all. People like that make me sick. No one without compassion should own an animal!

There is no such thing as a "reputable" breeder.

 

Then there are countless posts on there of dogs in shelters and all the people cooing over them and about how much they love these dogs. But then they go on to say all dogs should be spayed and neutered. Do they not realize that if all dogs are spayed and neutered there will be no more dogs at all?

 

Is this a common thing or is this some kind of crazy cult I ran into? I don't really have any experience of rescue groups outside of the people's whose posts I've read here on the BC Boards.

[Sue R]

I think there are extremists in every group or sort of group, don't you? These sound like they are taking things to the extreme and are not the norm. The people I know who do rescue are not adverse to responsible breeding and responsible homing of puppies, but the key word is "responsible".

[NRhodes]

I think there are extremists in every group or sort of group, don't you? These sound like they are taking things to the extreme and are not the norm. The people I know who do rescue are not adverse to responsible breeding and responsible homing of puppies, but the key word is "responsible".

 

Yeah, I'm just wondering how widespread and accepted this hate thing is.

[Mark Billadeau]

I think when you are knee deep in any problem you are very sensitive to anyone or anything that increases the problem you're dealing with. Because you are buried by the problem you cannot easily step back to see the bigger picture.

 

Distain for factory farming and inhumane treatment of meat animals leads to ALL producers of meat animal being painted with this image.

 

A bigoted film about Islam and Muhammad made in the USA by a few individuals paints all citizens and our government as anti-Muslim and targets of reprisals.

 

One year while at a rabies clinic I was accused of contributing to the animal overpopulation problem because I had intact females.

[rushdoggie]

I think when you are knee deep in any problem you are very sensitive to anyone or anything that increases the problem you're dealing with. Because you are buried by the problem you cannot easily step back to see the bigger picture.

 

This is true.

 

And there are many people who believe their own view is the only right one and see the world as black and white with no shades of gray. On the flip side, I have known a few (fortunately very few) people who looked at "mutts" with disdain, would be OK with culling a mismarked puppy, that sort of thing.

 

I have been involved with Rescue for many years and worked at an animal shelter for 5 years doing many jobs including wielding the needle, and I don't feel that way about breeders, and I know very few people who do.

[PSmitty]

I think it is very difficult for anyone passionate about animal rescue to be ok with millions of animals still being euthanized yearly in the US, even if that number is supposedly an "all time low". I'm not implying that anyone IS actually ok with it, just pointing out that the number or argument isn't going to sway them in any way. It's still a horrific number of lives lost.

 

Anyway, yes, I'd call that group an extremist branch of rescuers and I personally don't know any rescue people who feel that strongly about it. Please don't think that a smallish group respresents the whole, that's never a good idea, both when talking about rescuers and breeders, too.

[Pam Wolf]

I think it is very difficult for anyone passionate about animal rescue to be ok with millions of animals still being euthanized yearly in the US, even if that number is supposedly an "all time low". I'm not implying that anyone IS actually ok with it, just pointing out that the number or argument isn't going to sway them in any way. It's still a horrific number of lives lost.

 

Anyway, yes, I'd call that group an extremist branch of rescuers and I personally don't know any rescue people who feel that strongly about it. Please don't think that a smallish group respresents the whole, that's never a good idea, both when talking about rescuers and breeders, too.

 

 

But how many of that number are from responsible breeders? How many are from strays or mixed breeds?

 

Extremists are the ones to worry about in all regards, and yes I do know people who fit into the mandatory s/n category and we have 'discussions' on a regular basis.

[terrecar]

I think fanatics come in a variety of stripes--even in the realm of dogs--and it's one hell of a lot easier to see fanaticism in others than it is to see it in ourselves.

[terrecar]

WTF is a "responsible breeder" and who decides? I know a lot of AKC breeders who consider themselves responsible breeders. Are they? It is subjective. Where I bristle is where others want to legislate their idea of who that is.

[Mark Billadeau]

One other thought is the internet allows, among other things, extremists to congregate in one location (birds of a feather). Stumbling into an extremist virtual world does not mean it is reflective of reality.

[bcnewe2]

WTF is a "responsible breeder" and who decides? I know a lot of AKC breeders who consider themselves responsible breeders. Are they? It is subjective. Where I bristle is where others want to legislate their idea of who that is.

 

Agreed but there does have to be a line. At least to control puppy mills. So how does that fit in with not wanting legislation stepping in. If we could just follow the rules we already have in place I think it could be great start.

 

And anyone in bed or even in a chat room or communicating on line with PETA scares me. Wicked Wicked thing they are.

[PSmitty]

But how many of that number are from responsible breeders? How many are from strays or mixed breeds?

 

That wasn't my point.

 

I'm not defending the extremists, but what I tried to say is that the OP telling them that just because it's *only* 3-5 million animals a year these days (all time low!), that type of argument is not comforting to them. It's still way too many for THEM to think that breeding is ok.

[PSmitty]

One other thought is the internet allows, among other things, extremists to congregate in one location (birds of a feather). Stumbling into an extremist virtual world does not mean it is reflective of reality.

 

Yes, this.

[Mark Billadeau]

They will ask, why breed when there are this many dogs available?

The correct answer is, you breed when what is needed is not available in a rescue.

 

For example, how many rescues are capable of becoming police dogs, guide dogs, bomb detection dogs, military dogs, etc.

How many rescues can become reliable LGDs or stockdogs?

These are low volume needs, but real needs that will require some breeding; which means absolutely no breeding is not possible.

[terrecar]

Agreed but there does have to be a line. At least to control puppy mills.

 

Of course there has to be a line. My point is, it is not an agreed upon line. There is no moral dictate that says "Yes! Here it is!".

 

So how does that fit in with not wanting legislation stepping in.

 

You pretty much made my point for me here:

 

If we could just follow the rules we already have in place I think it could be great start.

 

We have legislation. Is it working? Will new legislation target those who are most responsible for the shelter population?

[terrecar]

They will ask, why breed when there are this many dogs available?

The correct answer is, you breed when what is needed is not available in a rescue.

 

For example, how many rescues are capable of becoming police dogs, guide dogs, bomb detection dogs, military dogs, etc.

How many rescues can become reliable LGDs or stockdogs?

These are low volume needs, but real needs that will require some breeding; which means absolutely no breeding is not possible.

 

I don't know if this is the 'correct' answer, but it is the one that makes the most sense to me.

[mum24dog]

They will ask, why breed when there are this many dogs available?

The correct answer is, you breed when what is needed is not available in a rescue.

 

For example, how many rescues are capable of becoming police dogs, guide dogs, bomb detection dogs, military dogs, etc.

How many rescues can become reliable LGDs or stockdogs?

These are low volume needs, but real needs that will require some breeding; which means absolutely no breeding is not possible.

 

I'm against breeding except for the type of work you mention.

 

But rationally I know I'm wrong.

 

For most dogs nowadays their job is to be a companion and it's a valuable thing to be. However many dogs there are in rescue they are not going to be able to satisfy the demand either in numbers or type.

 

If someone wants a small undemanding dog that wuill live happily in an apartment they aren't (I hope) going to take a rescue pitbull instead.

 

I count more people who have rescue dogs among my friends and close acquaintances than people who buy or breed. The few who breed do so on a small scale and I don't think their reasons are good enough but they have all produced the sort of dog they want to live with. I may disagree with what they have done but who am I to criticise? Thay know how I feel and understand if I don't coo over their latest additions to the dog population but we don't fall out over it. The older I get the less I want to rule the world.

[Mark Billadeau]

"Correct" in the sense that they will likely find it difficult to argue against and puts a hole in their "never breed" stand. Hopefully it will get them to think outside their own personal experiences with dogs.

[juliepoudrier]

They sound like a bunch of nutjobs. Most of the rescuers I know decry indiscriminate breeding, but I've never heard any of them advocate for all cats and dogs to be neutered, nor have I heard them "assassinate" all breeders as unholy cousins of the devil.

 

I'm guessing you stumbled on an extremist group. The fact that they banned you from posting says a great deal about their desire to educate (or be educated) compared to their desire to exist amongst their own self-congratulatory kind.

 

J.

[geonni banner]

Wacko burnt-out rescue junkies.

 

It's sort of like some people and AA. Some people get help and sort out their lives with AA. Some people just trade one addiction for another.

 

Some people do good rescue work and let it be an enhancement to their fully-formed lives. Some people become rescue addicts and go around the bend to choo-choo land, becoming fanatical one-point-focus nut-jobs.

 

Looks like you discovered a hive of the latter.

 

I have a friend who has been working with sterilizing/re-homing feral cats. We just had a conversation about the loonies in that "line of work." She was worrying about becoming like that. She said, "Shoot me if I get like that, will you?"

 

"Not a problem," I replied.

[terrecar]

"Correct" in the sense that they will likely find it difficult to argue against and puts a hole in their "never breed" stand. Hopefully it will get them to think outside their own personal experiences with dogs.

 

Got ya'. I think it is the basis for a darned good argument. You had me at "police dogs, guide dogs, bomb detection dogs, military dogs, etc.", and from the standpoint of what probably the majority of us value (us being members of society), that argument is compelling. Well, at least to (my idea of) a rational person.

[NRhodes]

They will ask, why breed when there are this many dogs available?

The correct answer is, you breed when what is needed is not available in a rescue.

 

For example, how many rescues are capable of becoming police dogs, guide dogs, bomb detection dogs, military dogs, etc.

How many rescues can become reliable LGDs or stockdogs?

These are low volume needs, but real needs that will require some breeding; which means absolutely no breeding is not possible.

 

That was actually the question of my first post on their group, where would working dogs come from if there were no breeders and I listed various types of working dogs. Their response was a chorus of "rescue." So I asked again if there are no breeders, you advocate all dogs should be spayed and neutered, where do we get working dogs from, where do we get any dogs from? They told me I didn't understand them and that I should go visit a shelter and see all the dogs die. So I asked about the "no-kill" shelter movement and snagged a few links from sites talking about shelters that have successfully switched to no-kill and various programs for reducing the numbers of dogs euthanized. They told me the no-kill shelter design allowed for 10% of dogs to be euthanized and was no good because dogs still died and the only way to stop it was get rid of breeders. So that's when I brought up numbers to show that things have been improving by quite a lot and aren't so doom and gloom as they say and that obviously things are working to curb the numbers of dogs being euthanized. I already told you how that went over hahaha.

 

From the responses I got they really didn't seem to care about finding a solution to there being stray and unwanted dogs, their plan seemed to be that there should be no dogs at all.

[NRhodes]

There are actually several of these 'hate breeders' groups on Facebook. The one that I posted on is just the one with the most members, having over one thousand.

[MrSnappy]

I've placed bomb detection dogs and police dogs right out of the shelter. And a lot of SAR dogs, assistance dogs, border sniffing dogs, bomb detection dogs, hearing assistance dogs, therapy dogs, seizure alert dogs etc etc etc come straight out of shelters too. And a goodly percentage of dogs "bred for" these kinds of jobs wash out of their programs with amazing frequently.

 

And oh so many of them are killed or dumped when they can no longer perform their "jobs," after serving so faithfully for so long, no matter where they came from originally.

 

I'm not anti-breeder. I'm just saying, they're just one cog in a big wheel of human need taking precedence over animal welfare and/or well being. But I like having dogs, and I selfishly would like to have pet dogs for the rest of my life, so I'm as guilty of that precedence as anyone else.

 

RDM

[terrecar]

They told me the no-kill shelter design allowed for 10% of dogs to be euthanized and was no good because dogs still died and the only way to stop it was get rid of breeders.

 

That 10% number comes from the No-Kill Advocacy Center and is comprised of estimates of the percentage of shelter animals that are either "irremediably suffering, hopelessly ill or truly vicious" (est. at <10%). So essentially what this quip is saying is either 'keep the animal alive irrespective of its quality of life' or 'I only read the Cliffs notes'.