terrecar Posted August 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 I would think if you have a disability that comes and goes (such as MS) <snip> Wow. I saw this after my last post. Uncanny that you mentioned MS. if you were having a bad day you would grab some help if needed or maybe even skip sheep work for that day. If it's a good day...then the Sky's the limit! I was thinking that as well. Not the grabbing help part but the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 Honestly, if your dog isn't a wild child you ought to be able to do some training, though at the beginning, you should probably rely on a good mentor to help you get started and see whether your dog is going to require more physical ability than you are able to muster. Especially at the beginning I think quick mental and physical reflexes *are* important because you need to be able to assess what's going on or about to happen and react quickly to make the best training point, if you know what I mean. And of course when a dog is just starting out, things can be very fast and furious. If your physical problems come and go, though, then you just don't train on the bad days. Ilse Sternberg, who recently passed away, was confined to a wheelchair and had to have voice assist to give commands to her dogs and yet she trialed for many years. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 Not uncanny just have a few friends with this disease, and you were kinda describing the symptoms or the lack of steady symptoms. They (the people I know with MS) make the best of it and carry on. I think one might use his sheep dog as an assist dog too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 In my area (SW Virginia), I have heard from fellow handlers (in agility) who travel widely to trials of a handler who does have MS and is very competitive at the higher levels of agility. (I know you said that you do not want to compete, but I am just providing an extreme example.) This handler has trained amazing distance skills on her dogs - a Springer, and now a BC. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 Terrecar: I'd be happy to lend you my DVDs of the National Sheepdog Finals from 2010 and/or 2011. Some of them (e.g., semifinals and finals) come with detailed commentaries that would help you better understand what's going on during a trial. (You won't get this sort of commentary at most of the trials held locally - but you'll still get a chance to meet a lot of really nice people in the local sheepdog community, so I hope you won't view this as a substitute for attending a trial!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Terrecar, You should try to come to Donald McCaig's trial over Labor Day weekend. You'd get plenty of commentary, and Donald's a great host. You can't beat the beauty and serenity of the location (Highland County, VA) either.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Adding my tuppence, here ... I should probably not attempt to answer this, but...I think agility would require quicker physical reflexes, but herding take quicker mental reflexes. I'm talking strictly the handler, not the dog. Agility strikes me as a fast, short burst of exertion, whereas sheepdog trialing is a prolonged, less explosive use of exertion. That said, however, for shedding and penning, a dog needs to be every bit as quick in his mind and physical reflexes as an agility dog. He may not need that every time he goes to shed or pen, but with challenging sheep or a tricky pen, the dog may need to move like a cutting horse, almost faster than the human can command them. As far as being capable of competing successfully in agility, I know my reflexes are not quick enough to 'win ribbons' during a flare up, but they may or may not be when I'm not experiencing symptoms..... Also, if my condition would in any way compromise the safety of the animals, I would not even think about it. It is not of that nature at this point. My mental reflexes are not affected. My motor reflexes are, and those symptoms are mild but significant enough to impede activities that require rapid physical movements (thanks PSmitty for helping me clarify that). Oooh, I think people were interpreting your remarks to mean there was a physical limitation on your dog. I did, at least. But if you are experiencing motor reflex problems, then my personal thought is that agility is by far more demanding on the human handler, than is sheepdog trialing. I've often looked at agility and reflected that there's no way I'd want to do that much running and cheerleading! But in sheepdog trialing, I've seen several handlers with varying degrees of physical limitations, bad hips, bad knees, bad backs, etc., who carry on with what they do. Since most of a course is with the handler standing at the post, there's not a lot of physical effort on the handler's part. That said, however, training your sheepdog is probably going to require a good deal of walking. And walking and walking, and depending on your dog, possibly running and hollering. Though if you have a good mentor/trainer to help you out, you can minimize the running stuff. Not sure this helps .... ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Oooh, I think people were interpreting your remarks to mean there was a physical limitation on your dog. ~ Gloria I don't think anyone thought this. At least not that I noticed when reading the replies. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I don't think anyone thought this. At least not that I noticed when reading the replies. J. My apologies, then. I was the one mis-reading. ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted August 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 That said, however, training your sheepdog is probably going to require a good deal of walking. And walking and walking, and depending on your dog, possibly running and hollering. Though if you have a good mentor/trainer to help you out, you can minimize the running stuff. Not sure this helps .... ~ Gloria It helps! I can see where my symptoms would impede my ability when I'm having a flare up. Also, those who do have disabilities and work sheep might already have learned those skills before their disability; a different scenario than learning from square one with an impairment. I do a lot of walking and hiking, so I think I could normally cover that part, but I would want to test my reflexes with something that doesn't involve the lives of animals before I ever got out on a field. The most important thing is, like you and others have said, having a mentor. I would consider myself lucky if I could find one who would not dismiss me off-hand, but who would nevertheless honestly evaluate what they see--sans kid gloves. I respect someone like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Unlike agility, learning stockwork (or training inexperienced dogs) often is a "contact sport". How many people learning agility have been taken down by an obstacle running into them? How many people learning stockwork (or training inexperienced dogs) have been pushed around, "taken for a ride", or knocked down by livestock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 How many people learning agility have been taken down by an obstacle running into them? We don't need stock to do that - the dog can take you out if you don't move or think quickly enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 But in sheepdog trialing, I've seen several handlers with varying degrees of physical limitations, bad hips, bad knees, bad backs, etc., who carry on with what they do. ~ Gloria You're describing the average agility handlers that I know. We had 3 club members needing knee ops within weeks of each other a few months ago. I know people who have had hip replacements, innumerable bad backs, one with Parkinson's, ME, people who need a stick or crutch to walk, profoundly deaf handlers, wheelchair users, cancer sufferers and the just plain hopeless like me. The great thing about agility is that there is a level for everyone with a dog that is right for them - like this handler - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJJyEkhG4XY I imagine working sheep is pretty much the same since people with determination exist in all walks of life. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 We don't need stock to do that - the dog can take you out if you don't move or think quickly enough. I'm sure a person can be knocked down in any activity, but I think I'd rather be knocked down by a 40 pound border collie than mowed down by multiple 200-pound sheep, with the 40-pound border collie hot on their tails. Just saying. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I imagine working sheep is pretty much the same since people with determination exist in all walks of life. ^^ Agreed! I have minimal/limited experience with agilty and am still a relatively novice handler at stock work. But I can say that I ran after my dog or out in the field quite a bit (and still have to from time to time) when we were starting out. And I even have gone sailing over the back of sheep that ran into me square in the knees and landed flat on my face, in front of a top hand during a private lesson! I would try both and see which fits you and your dog best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I'm sure a person can be knocked down in any activity, but I think I'd rather be knocked down by a 40 pound border collie than mowed down by multiple 200-pound sheep, with the 40-pound border collie hot on their tails. Just saying. J. So would I but I'd hope I'd see the sheep coming or at least anticipate that I might be in the way - not always possible in agility. I have the utmost respect for and wariness of stock after someone I know was left paralysed by a herd of cows. Broken limbs and cracked vertebrae are the worst I've come across in agility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I've never fallen in agility, nor had my dog take me out. *knocks on wood* I can't say the same for my friend, who has had multiple injuries, including broken bones (wrist and ankle, at different times) from agility. My dog would try VERY hard to not take me out, while hers does not have the same sense of self or handler preservation. In herding, I've fallen numerous times, tripped and almost fallen too many times to count, and been ran into by sheep quite a few times. In fact, I got "sheep burn" on my knee last Saturday. Both activities have the potential for injuries, definitely. ETA: (I meant to add to the last paragraph, but work got in my way) Although both have the potential for injury, as others have said, it's a lot easier to keep track of one dog on the agility course and non moving obstacles, than it is to worry about about several (or more) big sheep barreling at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 So would I but I'd hope I'd see the sheep coming or at least anticipate that I might be in the way - not always possible in agility. Obviously one can see the sheep coming, usually. That doesn't mean one can always get out of the way in a timely manner. Remember we're discussing *training* a dog on stock and whether a person with slower reflexes will have a problem. Ask Sue R about her experience being mowed down by the sheep when her dog ran them into her, and once they ran past, he very kindly headed them and ran them over her again before she could get up from the first encounter. In case you're wondering, I have no doubt that someone can get hurt, even seriously, doing agility, but as Mark pointed out, with stockdog training, there's a third (multiples of them) living, breathing animal added to the mix. Sh!t happens, and the more moving "parts" you add to the mix, the more likely that something is going to happen, whether you can see it coming or not. It's a matter of statistics. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 It helps! I can see where my symptoms would impede my ability when I'm having a flare up. Also, those who do have disabilities and work sheep might already have learned those skills before their disability; a different scenario than learning from square one with an impairment. I wouldn't make assumptions like that. Certainly not the case for me. Sure, flare ups can be frustrating and slow things down a lot, but if you love an activity it's all worth it in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Not to mention that farm fields are not flat or smooth, as compared to agility fields. How many agility fields have groundhog holes, boulders, ditches, divots from cow hooves etc? Choose either activity and have fun with it; go into it with your eyes open as far as the risks and the physical demands. You should also realize the physical demands in a competition will likely be different than during training for both activies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Or stupid handlers that see the sheep coming and still stand there (yes that might have been me!) I forgot where I was. my sheep respect me they will veer out and avoid me. But other sheep, not knowing my dog or myself...well they're not so considerate. It's all a case by case deal. If you want it bad enough and have good days then those would be the days I think I'd be working. The bad ones....maybe not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 To me mentally one has to be awful fast in stock work handling, and it seems like agility people are awful fast on their feet and signals. I have a fast dog and I always feel like I am mentally too slow by a mile for her. The time it takes for me to notice, diagnose and react I just feel my brain is in molasses. But its what I like about it. Maja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 To me mentally one has to be awful fast in stock work handling, and it seems like agility people are awful fast on their feet and signals. I have a fast dog and I always feel like I am mentally too slow by a mile for her. The time it takes for me to notice, diagnose and react I just feel my brain is in molasses. But its what I like about it. Maja Yep, tell me about it. Add handler's reaction time to fraction of second required for sound to travel any distance through air, and dog's own reaction time...well, sometimes for me the dog may take a command perfectly, yet situation has changed, making both of us a moment behind the action. I live for those instances when dog seems to anticipate commands, I have had appropriate cups of coffee, and a feeling as if directing a well-practiced orchestra. -- Kind regards, TEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appyridr Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 There is an long time Open handler in our area that has been competing successfully for over 10 years with MS. Many times qualified for Nationals. She lives on a sheep farm and takes young dogs in for training. She did have the skills before the onset of MS. cheers Lani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Various posts have made me realize that in agility physical demands get greater as the person and the dog progress, in herding it's the other way around. It is hardest physically in the beginning and gets easier. During trials I seem to split into smart and dumb: the dumb one is giving the commands and the smart one immediately notices the mistakes and says " that was dumb, oh no again, that was really dumb, oops dumb again, gosh do you ever think!" :lol: I wonder if it will improve "I'd see the sheep coming or at least anticipate that I might be in the way - not always possible in agility." That would be indeed quite natural if the sheep were running towards agility competitors for them not to anticipate that they might be in their way . (sorry, I know what you mean, but it was too much of a temptation ) Maja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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