Border Collie Collapse vs. Heat Stroke / Hyperthermia?

[agilityaddict05]

Hi all,

 

Hoping someone can shed some light on this -- had quite a scary incident with my young BC this evening. It was about 88 degrees Fahrenheit with about 40% humidity as best as I can guess. We did some short agility sequences (3-4 obstacles) and then my second cousins took turns throwing her Chuckit squirrel for her for about 15 minutes or so (not very far, they kept throwing it upside down so it'd go a max of 15-20 feet ).

 

She seemed fine at first, but when her panting got a little more rapid than is typical for her I asked her to take a break. Her panting got a little more frantic and she was wobbly in the rear so I hosed her off trying to cool her down, figuring it was heat stroke. She stayed wobbly (mostly in the rear) and wanted to keep trying to get the girls to play with her, much less responsive than usual to me. She recovered gradually over the course of about 30 minutes.

 

I'm aware of BCC, but not familiar enough to be able to differentiate it between possible symptoms of heat stroke... this isn't the first time this has happened with her, but it was never quite this severe (usually I catch the slightly "frantic" panting and have her lay down until her breathing returns to normal). Would heat stroke / hyperthermia be able to recover that quickly without veterinary intervention, or am I probably looking more at BCC? Any help appreciated.

[TEC]

Here is a link to article describing Border Collie Collapse (BCC) and distinguishing it from Heat Stroke. Even has several videos showing dogs undergoing collapse.

 

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vbs/faculty/Mickelson/lab/EIC/bordercollieEIC/home.html

 

Troubled me a lot that a person would work a dog hard enough to purposely induce BCC in order to make a video. In one, dog goes to water dish, but doesn't look to me like water is in it. Yes, woman says it was done in name of "research", but darn, I want to see lab coats and testing equipment, not a hand held camera in somebody's back yard. Those're my feelings, and I'm sticking to them

 

Hope yours experienced BCC, as it is not as damaging to dog as heat stroke, and usually recovery is fairly quick. -- Best wishes, TEC

[agilityaddict05]

Thank you - I swear I looked at that page half a dozen times this evening and totally missed that paragraph!

[TEC]

Thank you - I swear I looked at that page half a dozen times this evening and totally missed that paragraph!

 

It's understandable when you are concerned and upset. Trust your dog is still doing OK?

 

I live in an area of dry heat, and not much of that. We are fortunate in that regard. Also lucky to have a border collie with tremendous stamina/endurance. Several sheep dog herding trainers have remarked how Josie is like the energizer bunny. She just keeps going. The trait is a double edged sword...have to be careful to enforce breaks, and to provide "go to water" cues.

 

Sounds like close monitoring and frequent rest periods during exercise are ways to mitigate many heat/exercise related problems. BCC is hard to manage, as it can occur after relatively brief exercise, during periods of moderate heat. Happy your dog recovered quickly. -- TEC

[MrSnappy]

The dog in the last video is so fat

 

Two of my 6 dogs suffer from EIC/BCC. They are the only two "purebred" border collies I own. Piper didn't suffer her first episode until she was about 5 years old and it was severe - she completely collapsed face first and couldn't get up. She collapsed again two days later. She has not done it since, and is now going on 10 years, but I monitor her carefully and take precautions.

 

Dexter has been doing it since he was an adolescent, but it's much milder for him ... he gets wobbly and draggy in his hind end, like Denise's dog. He is more susceptible more quickly. Both of them are nuts / not very relaxed dogs in general. Both are trained now to go lie down in the wading pool on command, which I encourage them to do very frequently. It gives me peace of mind, and gives them a "reason" to take a break from playing.

 

RDM

[Mdaniels]

My dog had an episode last year. After playing all summer, we took him with us to the adirondaks for his first vacation. It was humid and I think he was anxious, being out of routine. He had several "wobbly" incidents thru out our stay and one where he toppled over. No recognition of my voice, etc. I'd seen some reactions in a very minor form at home, but didn't really realize what was happening. We have bloodwork, etc, on file with UM.

 

Nothing so far this year--but what he has started to do in warmer weather that he never did before is stop himself. He either lays right down or he just makes a beeline for the barn and ends the game, which he never did before. I swear he senses something, and I am pretty cautious about making the time outside playing in this very warm weather very short.

[PSmitty]

Jenn, without being there, I don't think any of us can really say what happened. In my opinion, which isn't worth much, , it sounds like she got overheated. Not to the extent of heat stroke, which is very serious, but over heated, yes. They can get too hot and get wobbly in the rear, and then recover pretty quickly (as in the 30 minutes you mentioned).

 

FWIW, my dogs get heated very quickly with fetch. More so than when they work sheep or do agility. So, to me, 15 minutes of fetch after doing some agility, in 88 degree weather, was over-doing it. I know it was not intentional, but now that you know, you can monitor more closely. Look for other signs that she's getting too hot (dilated pupils, tongue curling) before she hits the wobbly stage.

 

Glad she's OK!

[frisbeegirl]

I too am worried about the heat. It has been 98 degrees here for two days in a row.

 

Yesterday Keeva acted as if the temp didn't matter. But I knew better it was dangerous.

 

So we hiked to the pond and and she went swimming. I even let her in the house wet.

 

This morning out walk was enough. It was already 87 at 6:30 am. She wanted inside.

 

No physical training or exercise in this heat.

 

Inside mind games will have to do at least till the sun goes done.

 

I wonder how you folks in hot climates deal with border collies?

 

We usually never see a 100 degrees.

[rushdoggie]

So, for those of you with experience with this, do you know if a dog who seems to get hot quickly is more susceptible to BCC than one who doesn't heat up fast?

 

My dog gets hot while running around, particularly if he is excited, very fast. Much faster than any dog I have had before him. When its 75 degrees he can get warm enough in 10-15 minutes of activity that I enforce him to lie in the shade or get wet. He will seek shade and not work for me in the sun at all (even not super active stuff) if he can avoid it. He also turns his pads out and up a lot when he gets hot, presumably to get them cooler?

 

He has a littermate who get shot easily too.

 

Meantime, on a 85 degree day my Papillon is racing around and laying in the sun basking.

[Mark Billadeau]

Troubled me a lot that a person would work a dog hard enough to purposely induce BCC in order to make a video. In one, dog goes to water dish, but doesn't look to me like water is in it. Yes, woman says it was done in name of "research", but darn, I want to see lab coats and testing equipment, not a hand held camera in somebody's back yard. Those're my feelings, and I'm sticking to them

 

Hope yours experienced BCC, as it is not as damaging to dog as heat stroke, and usually recovery is fairly quick. -- Best wishes, TEC

Good thing you didn't go to see the field testing performed during the BCC clinical study. I doubt the person working the dogs on livestock wore a lab coat.

[Rave]

I wonder how you folks in hot climates deal with border collies?

 

Early morning or late evening walks, preferably near bodies of water or kiddie pools. Indoor treadmill. Work on the Fitpaws ball. Mind games. Indoor fetch. Indoor agility training.

[olivehill]

So, for those of you with experience with this, do you know if a dog who seems to get hot quickly is more susceptible to BCC than one who doesn't heat up fast?

 

 

I'm curious about this, too. But I guess from a slightly different angle, not due to exercise, but ambient temperature. Tripp can play for hours if the temp is in the 70's or lower, but once you hit the low to mid 80s he starts showing signs that the heat is bothering him. We have humid heat here. When you get into the mid 90s and 60+% humidity like it has been lately here he seems to get hot just strolling around the yard for a potty break. It's not uncommon for us to get into 80+% humidity in the summer, so we'll see how he fares. Lucky for him we have central air, I guess, so he can still run and play inside.

[Mark Billadeau]

I wonder how you folks in hot climates deal with border collies?

Acclimation of our dogs to higher temperatures, close monitoring during work, and training sessions are postponed to cooler temps for the welfare of all involved (including livestock).

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

I wonder how you folks in hot climates deal with border collies?

 

I'm probably a bit more extreme than most folks, but I don't run the a/c, which saves me a boatload of $$ and keeps us all acclimated to the weather. I think acclimation is probably the most important thing you can do, but that would be more difficult in localities where extreme heat/humidity is more sporadic.

 

If I must work/train a dog, I would do it very early in the morning at first light because that's usually coolest, least humid (relatively speaking) time of the day. Also I feel it's better for the stock because they will have rested overnight in relatively cool temps (vs. having had to deal with the heat all day and then being worked once/if it cools down in the evening.

 

If I must work a dog (say, the stock get out or something that can't be put off), then I watch closely, try to keep everything calm and slow, and either make sure the dog can get in cool water often, or switch out dogs. (This would be a rare occurrence: for example, several years ago a bunch of lambs crossed an electric high tensile fence. I couldn't get on the side where they were in order to help my dog, so I had to send her in there and get her to convince the sheep to cross back. It took 45 minutes because of course they didn't want to come back through that electrified wire. They were on a neighbor's property, so I couldn't leave them. The only other time there was a situation like that was when the neighbor's cattle got out. It was at night, but in July, so still hot and humid. But those are cases where you don't have a lot of choice.)

 

To the OP,

I would bet your dog just suffered from hyperthermia. I had a dog collapse after playing frisbee on a 70-degree spring (non-humid) day even with plenty of breaks. I was not at my house and so had to wave down a passing farmer, who loaded us in the back of his truck and drove us home. I put her in a kiddy pool with cold water running on her and by the time I got off the phone with the vet, she had recovered. She was a bit more susceptible for a while after that, but that sensitivity didn't last past that summer season. She later became one of my first trial dogs and trialed in the summer in the south without any problems.

 

In my experience, BCC dogs will overheat no matter what the ambient temperature.

 

TEC,

You did notice the the website you linked to was a college of vet medicine website? People taped their dogs exhibiting symptoms of BCC because researchers asked for such data. They didn't require lab coats...

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Agility Addict,

If you search this forum on overheating, you will find some more in-depth discussions of BCC. I was searching for something the other day and came across a discussion from two years ago in which two of us described our comparison of a dog considered to have BCC and one who didn't, their temps after working stock, etc. There's lots of information in the archives.

 

J.

[frisbeegirl]

Thank all of you for responding.

 

Its funny I brought Keeva home to NY in October (we had a freak snowstorm and got 18 inches of snow.)

I wasn't thinking about the seasons.

 

Aside from having a border collie, giving her a real job to do, every change in the seasons is something new.

 

Least to say i am not bored.

[Mdaniels]

Actually, the UM folks told me that the experiences of BCC are lessened when the temperatures do begin to decline. We asked this after my vet and I did some observed exercise in much cooler temps back home. I hesitated a few weeks before I decided to try a short trial with my dog under the vets supervision. There was no reaction. We did ask the vet if there was a difference when the temperatures declined and she replied affirmatively.

[TEC]

You did notice the the website you linked to was a college of vet medicine website? People taped their dogs exhibiting symptoms of BCC because researchers asked for such data. They didn't require lab coats...

 

J.

 

Darn, and I always thought you had to wear a white lab coat to be an official researcher Hyperbole does not translate very well through the web. Let me know if YouTube videos linked to vet school website provided information whether veterinary personnel were available to study and measure first-hand the dogs' heart rate/temperature/respiration/etc, and whether they were present to provide for the dogs' well-being. It appeared to me that some of the dog handlers had submitted videos, in which the handlers had intentionally induced a state of suffering -- Border Collie Collapse (BCC) -- while no trained personnel were present to either take measurements or intervene should the dog get in medical trouble. I didn't see explanatory material, other than the vet school was seeking videos of BCC. Let me know if I overlooked it.

 

To me, it's usually OK to video a dog experiencing a medical difficulty when no person has played a part in purposefully creating the condition/suffering. I would like to think that the vet school was seeking such material. If/when a thoughtful and intentional step is taken to induce a condition such as BCC, it should be made clear to video viewers (and in fact be the case) that medical personnel are present to supervise and, if need be, intervene.

 

Don't like to watch dogs suffer, not knowing safeguards are present.

 

Hope that properly designed/conducted research can shed more light on all heat/exercise/stress related conditions. Wishing AgilityAddict05 the best for her and her dog. -- Kind regards, TEC

[juliepoudrier]

To me, it's usually OK to video a dog experiencing a medical difficulty when no person has played a part in purposefully creating the condition/suffering. I would like to think that the vet school was seeking such material. If/when the thoughtful and intentional step is taken to induce a condition such as BCC, it should be made clear to video viewers (and in fact be the case) that medical personnel are present to supervise and, if need be, intervene.

How do you imagine the vet school could have sought such videos without expecting that people would have to put dogs in the situation that caused them to exhibit symptoms? Unfortunately when problems like BCC occur one doesn't always have a camera handy and think to tape it. I doubt the vet community would have asked owners to tape instances of BCC if they thought they were putting dog lives in danger. I know at least one of the owners who took video and I'm quite sure that this owner would not have put the dog's life at risk. After all, these are concerned owners who would like to help find an answer to a problem that is affecting the quality of life of their dogs.

 

I get what you're saying, but we all regularly make risk vs. benefit choices regarding our dogs, and I'm betting that these folks all thought the benefit that could be gained from research outweighed the slight risk to their dog needed to obtain video.

 

J.

[Kate Jones]

Troubled me a lot that a person would work a dog hard enough to purposely induce BCC in order to make a video. In one, dog goes to water dish, but doesn't look to me like water is in it. Yes, woman says it was done in name of "research", but darn, I want to see lab coats and testing equipment, not a hand held camera in somebody's back yard. Those're my feelings, and I'm sticking to them

 

TEC, one of the "mild episodes" on the UMN site is of my dog. Did I intentionally cause her to have an episode of BCC? Of course not. Did it pain me to quick grab my camera when she did have an episode and tape her? Of course! Was I reasonably sure I could cool her down quickly? Absolutely, and I did. I had already been in communication with Dr. Katie Minor at U of MN, who, from my description of previous episodes, thought my dog probably exhibited BCC and not heat stroke. I received instructon on cooling her off safely. I also have taken courses on canine first aid but am not a vet. I can though determine a dog's temperature and pulse. Alas, no lab coat. I taped my dog, and sent bloodwork, to help this wonderful breed. I also sent samples from my non-affected dogs as those samples are needed, too.

 

It is painful to watch beloved animals suffering in any way.

[Kate Jones]

Actually, the UM folks told me that the experiences of BCC are lessened when the temperatures do begin to decline. We asked this after my vet and I did some observed exercise in much cooler temps back home. I hesitated a few weeks before I decided to try a short trial with my dog under the vets supervision. There was no reaction. We did ask the vet if there was a difference when the temperatures declined and she replied affirmatively.

 

My first BC, probably had BCC episodes, although 28 years ago it was not known, at least to me. He would collapse in a nicely a/c building after moderate training or just playing with other dogs inside. He also collpased a few times outside, but I do not recall what the temp was.

 

My dog, Really, has never collapsed indoors, but has collapsed outdoors when the temp was 50 degrees and 65 degrees, after 5-10 minutes of fetch. She is "fit." So, imo, BCC episodes are most likely to occur at high temperatures, but only in high temps.

[TEC]

I taped my dog, and sent bloodwork, to help this wonderful breed. I also sent samples from my non-affected dogs as those samples are needed, too.

 

It is painful to watch beloved animals suffering in any way.

 

Ms. Jones -- Yes, as you said, it is difficult to watch, regardless of whether purposely induced or not. Let's pray that progress can be made in this field, as well as other canine disorders and injuries. Thank you for further explanation re: your video, which I deduce (correct me if I'm wrong) is "Mild BCC Episode 2". You picked up a camera, with a vet's blessing, to film an episode of suspected BCC which unfortunately simply happened on its own, knowing how to safely cool her down. We both love our pets and the breed, and it's clear you responsibly contributed to BCC research.

 

Great name "Really"...do you call her with a questioning inflection? Sorry she is prone to BCC. She is in good hands. -- Kind regards, TEC

[juliepoudrier]

You picked up a camera, with a vet's blessing, to film an episode of suspected BCC which unfortunately simply happened on its own, knowing how to safely cool her down. We both love our pets and the breed, and it's clear you responsibly contributed to BCC research.

And yet you would persist in your belief that all the other videos were somehow different (i.e., deliberate, without vet consultation, etc.)? The other "mild" video is Denise Wall's Zeke, a successful open trial dog. Note that she said the symptoms appeared about 5 minutes *after* working, so while he was cooling down. Clearly this is a fit dog who was capable of running an open trial course. Do you really think she was deliberately endangering his life?

 

Most of the folks I know who have dogs suspected of BCC still try to do activities with them. They try to control the situation so that BCC doesn't occur, but sometimes it still does. So the question becomes do you force the dog to become a couch potato for fear of an episode, or do you proceed with caution, recognizing that you might inadvertently cause an episode? My personal preference would be the latter. But clearly not everyone might feel that way.

 

J.

[TEC]

And yet you would persist in your belief that all the other videos were somehow different (i.e., deliberate, without vet consultation, etc.)? The other "mild" video is Denise Wall's Zeke, a successful open trial dog. Note that she said the symptoms appeared about 5 minutes *after* working, so while he was cooling down. Clearly this is a fit dog who was capable of running an open trial course. Do you really think she was deliberately endangering his life?

 

Most of the folks I know who have dogs suspected of BCC still try to do activities with them. They try to control the situation so that BCC doesn't occur, but sometimes it still does. So the question becomes do you force the dog to become a couch potato for fear of an episode, or do you proceed with caution, recognizing that you might inadvertently cause an episode? My personal preference would be the latter. But clearly not everyone might feel that way.

 

J.

 

 

It's healthy to discuss an issue such as this. How others feel about it should be left for them to say. Am simply expressing how I am about it. It's really impossible to argue deeply ingrained beliefs. People are going to do what they believe in their hearts is right. I'm the same.

 

There is not much fundamental difference, in my mind, between, 1) forcing a dog to stay, for instance, in an air conditioned room all day, and on the other hand, 2) picking up a camera, without medical supervision/presence, with the intent for research reasons to purposefully induce an episode of heat/exercise related disorder. Both cause suffering. Nobody that I am aware of would suggest a choice between the two.

 

Would I video a known BCC prone dog experiencing BCC symptoms, when the symptoms had inadvertently/unintentionally appeared during a properly controlled/monitored exercise session? If I knew the animal was appropriately cared for during cool-down phase, that it was not in medical danger, and that nothing more could reasonably be done to help it, consider filming poor dog for educational purposes.

 

So, are we on opposite sides of the equator on this issue? Don't know. Open to discussing parameters of my beliefs, though the fundamentals can't be changed. -- Kind regards, TEC

[Mark Billadeau]

There is not much fundamental difference, in my mind, between, 1) forcing a dog to stay, for instance, in an air conditioned room all day, and on the other hand, 2) picking up a camera, without medical supervision/presence, with the intent for research reasons to purposefully induce an episode of heat/exercise related disorder. Both cause suffering.

What about dogs held in shelters or kennels?

What about dogs crated overnight while their owners sleep in another room?

What about seeing eye dogs sitting next to their blind owners in an air conditioned office all day?

etc.