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Anniko

Unenthusiastic Puppy

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huh. Never heard the banned thing before in all of my abundant dog food research.

 

As for names, well, I go by results rather than names. Besides is "Love" or "Embark" really different than "Beneful" or "Primal"? Dog food names all given to appeal to humans in some manner... Anyways, IME, Two of my dogs now have had signifficant health issues that went away with the addition of THK foods to their diet. I don't think it's a cure all or the perfect diet for every dog, but I've had enough success with it to feel good about recommending it.

 

Ok, fair enough. I just saw "We’re sorry, this product is not allowed to be sold in New Mexico or South Dakota" on some of the products, so I thought that was a little strange. Apparently it's because they contain herbs not approved for animals in those states. There's not any clinical proof that it does harm either.

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First off.. this is one of my puppies.. Anna if Rikki was having problems why did you not contact me first?! The only thing you said was after you got her home she was having diarrhea. Yes I did tell you to give her canned pumpkin and yogurt because USUALLY diarrhea after changing homes is due to stress, diet change and water change. Pumpkin will firm up the poop and yogurt will give her the good bacteria in her tummy.. Second I said she was eating chicken liver/beef liver or some type of organ meat as well a whole chicken thigh twice a day. This is just what the puppies are started on, this is not a complete meal plan to adulthood. My dogs currently eat whole prey model, the chicken and rabbits are raised by me. You have both my email and phone number but I was directed here by another person saying that I was being badmouthed.

 

First and foremost ALL my Border Collies WORK ON MY FARM WITH GOATS AND DUCKS (and cows and horses). I do not have access to sheep but I do back up puppies that were sold for work. Every one can herd and work on a farm. I also have a 4 page contract that I sign stating this..

NO I do NOT trial. I absolutely do not have time to travel around to trials living on an actual WORKING farm..

Yes some of my dogs are "sport" Border Collies but again they ALL can and do work moving/herding goats.

Yes Rikki's parents are a cross of a working dairy cattle BC and an agility BC (who can work as well)

All of the puppies in that litter were high energy and high drive. Anna you said you spend a lot of time being active outdoors and wanted an active companion. You said you would try agility if that was not enough stimulation as you will not/can not have her herd/work..

You also asked how much can she be active/how long can she be walked as a young pup. I told you she will let you know when she is tired and if she is being overworked.

Rikki was climbing 3ft x pens before she left (and I even told you this) she was certainly not a lazy/unenthusiastic puppy. If you were to tell me this or ask about it I would have certainly tried to figure out what is going on with her whether it is a health issue or overworking a 4 month old puppy. The last I heard "She learns very fast and loves to cuddle with us"

 

I absolutely LOVE all my dogs as well as their pups. Even years later I ask people to send me updates on them. I have people post their comments and pictures of their dogs now grown up. I have yet to have anyone tell me anything negative. Of course if they would I would do everything in my power to fix it. The worst I have come across is one of my female pups(who is now 2yr) was bought with breeding rights had a Pennhip score of .55 (NOT dysplastic and does NOT have any problems) but because of the score I paid the difference/spaying since she should/would not be used for breeding. I have no problem disclosing anything with my dogs or their pups (within the discretion of the new owners)

 

Quite honestly I don't come to this board often because I think a large portion of the people here are judgemental and rude. I don't think all BC's need to be top trial dogs to be a good dog. I am 100% for keeping working lines, but these are MY working lines. My dogs work for me and no one else. I do not need to parade them around in a trial field to "prove" they are worthy. I know darn well they can go out and bring back a stray/stubborn goat or help me round them up to put them back in their pen. The very reason I have "colored" BC's is because I enjoy genetics. BC's have some amazing color genetics but I in NO WAY would sacrifice ability for color. Kitt (the Lilac merle who died due to Juvenile Epilepsy) came from CATTLE WORKING BC parents. Both parents work cattle, it takes a TOUGHER BC to run cattle. Hence the McCallum lines.. Not all BC's are tough/gritty enough to bite cattle (front or back) so whomever was making comments about the cattle BC's is wrong, just because the BC started as a SheepDog doesn't mean there is anything wrong with breeding a tougher version that can handle cattle and call them cattle working BC's

 

You guys are right though, you don't see "colored" BC's in trials and such, and I imagine it's because people like (those who were complaining about colors) would shun them and make a big stink about it. It by NO WAY mean that a BC that is not black/white classic marked can not work well... Gee wiz it makes people sound racist they way you complain about BC's of color =(

 

 

PS.. MY BC Angel, the one that herds my child was NEVER BRED for the very reason she was not worthy of breeding, she is far to neurotic and very minimal off switch.. So NO I do not consider herding a child a valuable trait....

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You guys are right though, you don't see "colored" BC's in trials and such, and I imagine it's because people like (those who were complaining about colors) would shun them and make a big stink about it.

 

My guess would be this is because they don't care a lick about the aesthetics of a dog, and only breed/work/trial the dogs that work at the caliber expected of a working Border Collie... they just happen to often be B&W/some variation because they're breeding for work and not color. I don't think it has anything to do with being 'racist'.

 

“Big ones, little ones, handsome ones, ugly ones, long-coated, short-coated: nobody gave a damn. How’s his outrun? Can he read sheep? Can he move a rank old cow?”

-Donald McCaig, The Dog Wars

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I ran two colored Border Collies at trials...both red and white. Once people realized they were some of the top Open dogs, they acquired a fan club. At first, my dogs had to prove themselve and once people saw that a Border Collie that was not "black and white" could do just as well, or better, they changed their minds.

 

One colored dog from my breeding (red/white) is ranked 43rd in the Nation now.

 

Did I bred for color? No, both parents were a b/w and a tri....the red gene came out in the litter....on a couple of the pups.

 

I appreciate that you came out and explained you worked your dogs on stock. it was not apparent on the website. It clarifies some questions.

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Sigh. Yes, you're right. Of course you don't have to prove your dogs to anyone. But when I go to a website and see pretty much nothing but merle dogs of various shades I realize that you are in fact breeding for color first and foremost. If that's what you want to do no one can stop you. Consider that lots of folks who trial also have farms that need taking care of and you'll see why many of us consider it a rather weak excuse. If you simply don't care to trial, that's your business, and I wouldn't have anything to say about that except when people make claims about working ability then most working dog folks would expect that person to be able to back up those claims.

 

I think merles are pretty dogs, but there are *very few* that work to a standard I would appreciate and want on my farm or for trials. The fact that there are so few working merles (at the open trialing level) says to me that statistically the numbers are against someone who is breeding for color first to be able to produce exceptional working dogs.

 

My dogs work poultry, sheep, and cattle, but I do recognize that any claims I make about the work they do at home are just that: claims (familiar stock, familiar location, routine).

 

Every description of your dogs starts off with their color. One of your dogs looks like it could be the result of a merle-to-merle breeding. That alone tells me what your breeding priorities are. No doubt you'll continue to attract buyers who see and want pretty colors. Good for you. Not good for the future of exceptional working dogs.

 

Oh, and I suspect if we all applauded breeders like you then you wouldn't think us rude would you? But, when we call a spade a spade that makes us rude. Oh well.

 

Oh, and Diane, I won't be truly impressed until you get out there with your piebald lilac sable merle and get it ranked better than 50th in the nation. :D

J.

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One person said to me once (something like this) ...want to win the Kentuck Derby? Do you want to breed to Man-o- war or the horse who just gallops fast around in his paddock and beats the other horses in his paddock, based on the owners word? Or do you want to bred to Man-O- War or the horse that has a nice bay and four perfect white socks?

 

I have seen merles run at two Finals...I know the owners busted their asses to prove their dogs.

 

Let's say you want to breed and like to have color in your lines. That's your choice. But I would suggest proving your dogs so the color does mean something, rather than pretty.

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I start each dogs description with their color because half the site is dedicated to the genetics (color, coat length, traits etc) in the BC. As I said before I find genetics interesting and although it is not fully completed I had the genetic info on the site far before added any litters for sale.

 

The only odd colored BC would be Kuma the sable lilac. The way I found him was because I was looking for bloodlines close to Angels (high drive but hopefully not too neurotic this time)He just happened to be a sable lilac(he was not sold as that nor was that listed on his ABCA papers) I happened to notice his adult coat wasn't the typical red/chocolate/lilac color and I sent DNA in to have him color tested. (back to the enjoying genetics part)

 

I went to Scotland to pickup both Cheeta and Rei(the merles) Cheeta is an already trained sheepdog and did hillwork. She was bred to Dale who placed 6th at his first Nursery trial in Yorkshire (which I was at) and that was my litter from Nov.

The black tri pup was the one I kept out of the litter and he has already started on goats (earlier then I normally start the dogs)

 

Now you're right Eagle does look like a merle x merle cross but she's not she has the harlequin modifier (think great danes) she came from B24 Ranch in KS. (look up their website if you must but they also work their dogs, I watched them work before buying her.) SHe was bought for her working ability as well as her "color" as I am partial to piebald/white BC's it in no way affects their working ability... Anyways the work with Harlequin is being done by Dr. Leigh Ann Clark not just for the "color" aspect but because of the correlation with Alzheimer's. Like I said I do enjoy genetics which is why I placed emphasis in it on the site.

 

Different colored dogs most certainly do NOT make money or what ever you may think... Most people do NOT want a Border Collie that is different.. Chocolates, merles and extreme white BC's are usually not wanted and I do not specifically bred for them. Classic marked pups are always the first to be requested/reserved.

 

It is my fault I don't put enough emphasis on the website that my dogs work (there is plenty of on the facebook page though..)

I guess I'm just under the assumption that if people have questions they'll ask, or if there's problems they'll tell me.

When someone asks me about trialing I tell them I don't, if people ask if my dogs can work I tell them they can and who ever wants to come visit only has to ask.

 

I don't go around making accusations of others without talking to them/knowing the situation and I guess I made the mistake of expecting the same of others. (hence the reason I don't hang around forums all that often)

 

And my goodness time/work is most certainly a factor in going/participating in trials. I am the major caretaker of ALL the animals as well as my son. I do not have any hired hands here and my husband is at work until 6PM+ everyday. So between kidding, bottle calves, training and taking my son to his activities I have no idea how I would have time to trial, but by all means if anyone wants to handle one of my dogs and take them to trial, be my guest!

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Little Foxx you made the statement that your dogs work also with cows and horses. May I ask what kind of work your dogs do with the horses?

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First and foremost ALL my Border Collies WORK ON MY FARM WITH GOATS AND DUCKS (and cows and horses).

And your dogs "work...horses"?

NO I do NOT trial. I absolutely do not have time to travel around to trials living on an actual WORKING farm...My dogs work for me and no one else. I do not need to parade them around in a trial field to "prove" they are worthy. I know darn well they can go out and bring back a stray/stubborn goat or help me round them up to put them back in their pen.

Your comments about trialing indicate that you do not realize just what trialing is about and its value in evaluating dogs and making breeding decisions. Yes, there are many dogs that are worth breeding that never see a trial field, but one should not underestimate or dismiss the value of trialing. And those farm/ranch dogs that are worth breeding are those that do some serious work of challenging and high quality. I had an Airedale that could fetch an errant pig and pen it. Would that have made her worthy to breed pups I called "Border Collies"? It is not just the work but the quality and level of work that defines a dog's breed-worthiness.

Yes some of my dogs are "sport" Border Collies but again they ALL can and do work moving/herding goats.

This rather reminds me of the well-known breeder of show/sport/hobby-herding dogs who stated flatly that all her dogs would be "Open" dogs if she just had the time to train them. Again, it's a matter of what the dogs are actually capable of doing, and being able to train and work them to prove that.

Quite honestly I don't come to this board often because I think a large portion of the people here are judgemental and rude. I don't think all BC's need to be top trial dogs to be a good dog.

No, they don't. But they have to be dogs that have the package to be worth breeding, and that's something you can't evaluate in a small-scale, non-challenging situation.

I am 100% for keeping working lines, but these are MY working lines. The very reason I have "colored" BC's is because I enjoy genetics. BC's have some amazing color genetics but I in NO WAY would sacrifice ability for color.

Color isn't all there is to genetics - it is just something that is fairly simple to see. The importance of Border Collie genetics is in no way "color". It is selecting for and combining the genetic characteristics that make the working dog.

You guys are right though, you don't see "colored" BC's in trials and such, and I imagine it's because people like (those who were complaining about colors) would shun them and make a big stink about it. It by NO WAY mean that a BC that is not black/white classic marked can not work well... Gee wiz it makes people sound racist they way you complain about BC's of color =(

There are "dogs of color" that trial and those that do well are respected. It's not prejudice, it's that very few of them seem to have what it takes to be an Open working dog. Period.

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Getting sidetracked here but just a little story of how important color is when choosing a pup.

 

My last puppy was out of 2 open dogs owned by two big hats..I had seen these two dogs run in fact had competed against them.

 

When a pup from these two became available I snatched it up..paid for it. and we made arrangements for another handler that was coming this way to partly drive the puppy to me I would meet him 3 hours from my home.

 

When I got the call that the puppy had been picked up and was headed home, I thanked the handler and then said OH What does it look like, what color. I had never seen a pic of this puppy..I assumed the puppy was bk/white because the parents were...

 

Just goes to show how important color is when choosing a working dog.

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Y'all may as well hang it up. As long as the P.T. Barnum world of suckers exists, so too will the folks who are willing to fill the demand. People who don't know any better will be attracted to pretty colors and will take the breeder's word about what wonderful workers the dogs are. Has anyone seen any dog this breeder or the other well-known color breeders have produced on the trial field? Working well on big ranches out west? Oh yeah, they would, but there's just no time to get it all done.

 

It's clear to me that breeders like this will continue to exist as long as there are people willing to buy the candy colored puppies.

 

Gee, I'm interested in genetics too, only my interest runs to working ability and the diseases that affect the working border collie: epilepsy, early-onset deafness, CHD. I have my favorite colors too, but I don't breed for them because the color doesn't confer any sort of ability on the dog. And if I want to learn about color genetics, I can find plenty of good scientific material to read--no need to go out and see how many color variations I can produce (and sell) myself.

 

When a breeder states that the dog bites and therefore would be great working cattle (huh?) or that the dog works the children so must have real working talent (really? you believe that?), well, I know where I categorize that breeder. Too bad the general public doesn't get it.

 

MAH imported some lovely bloodlines (probably still does), but that didn't change the fact that she's a miller and breeds good bloodlines together with no freakin' clue about how the lines will cross and what sort of workers she might produce (or more likely not). Her goal clearly isn't about trying to produce great (or even good) working dogs--it's about selling puppies (and besides color, big names, words like "champion" and so on are great marketing tools). You can bet she markets her gazillions of puppies based on the records of the National and Int'l Supreme champions in their bloodlines. Of course they all can work to a high standard. Assuming she or her puppy buyers would ever work them. And I'm sure with the numbers of pups being produced, it's entirely possible to raise all those puppies and test their working ability. Oh yeah, except they're snatched up by people who like pretty colors and have no idea about work and certainly will never prove the value of the cross by actually working the pups to any sort of real standard. But yep, they're from great bloodlines and certainly would work well, IF ONLY....

 

But I really suspect that per usual we're wasting our breath here. A breeder has candy colors, puppy buyers are attracted to candy colors. And the free market system rolls on. Preserving the working border collie be damned.

 

Little Foxx, I'm sorry you got dragged in to this. I just wish you would understand the other side of the story. But I also realize that you believe you are doing a good thing and doing right by your dogs, and anything I say is unlikely to change your mind.

 

 

J.

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I’m not going to comment on anything to do with what color the dogs should/shouldn’t be. I was a little afraid of getting one that needed more stimulation that I could give it, so I thought a dog bred for speed/agility would be a good match.

When I originally posted this, my main aim was to get her more enthusiastic about training/learning simple obedience commands. I did not believe she had a health problem because she has been to the vet and she is not lethargic (as I've said before in my posts). I simply believed that I wasn’t training her correctly.

 

To make it clearer, these are the things we were worried about:

-She does not respond well to training

-She would lay down in obedience class

-She went through a period of ~2 weeks were she slept a lot. She was lagging behind us on walks and did not start running as much if we tossed her ball. During this time, she was still jumping over baby gates and running around some in the early morning and evening. It was just less than I expected for a puppy. Again, I said in this post that she was not lethargic, that she had bouts of energy, and that she still loved her ball.

Shortly after I posted this question, she decided to perk up and start acting much more energetic :)

-She was not excited about getting her food. At first I thought she was simply not food motivated, but she had pretty much no interest (In different treats, chicken, ground beef or cheese).

-She has never been excited about walks. It doesn’t matter where, when, how short the walk is. She will randomly sit down multiple times at the beginning, middle and end of the walk. I thought at first it was fear because she would not walk past the driveway, but after a month we are still having this problem and even the trainer is not helping us. I am used to dogs that go crazy when they see their leash, so this is worrying.

 

I still hold that she learns some things very fast, but she does not seem to WANT to learn new commands. Even for the trainer at the obedience class sometimes. I said that she responds consistently to come and sit, but we are having lots of trouble with the others. She learned things like reading body language, directing us to something she is interested in, and being directed while off-leash very quickly. I have been told I am probably putting too much pressure on her, even though we have only tried to teach about six commands over the period of a month and any training time is very, very short. She is in a class of puppies of the same age and I see them constantly bouncing off the walls, running, and wagging their tails and she simply never did this.

 

Everyone who said her diet needs to be fixed is correct, and that was my fault. However, I did send an email a while ago that we would like more detailed instructions on feeding her, and got the response to give her pumpkin puree but did not receive any other information. Her contract said that we would get feeding instructions and her paperwork, among other things in the mail that I’m not particularly concerned about. We never received these things though you said you would send them. The website (and maybe contract, I’d have to check) also said that clicker training and potty training (she used to deliberately come inside to potty despite access to the yard) would be started with the puppies, but again, I’m not really concerned about that.

I acknowledged in an earlier post that I overlooked that you said you gave your dogs liver, and Rikki is getting some now.

I knew basically what an adult dog’s raw diet should consist of, and that bone should only be 10%, but I was not clear on the rest. I have done a lot more research now and have a better understanding, but we’re going to feed her pre-made raw supplemented with some of our own raw until I am SURE I know exactly what I am doing.

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People who don't know any better will be attracted to pretty colors and will take the breeder's word about what wonderful workers the dogs are.

J.

 

 

I guess this is directed at me. I was not looking for a candy-colored dog. My fault was more that I was not willing to request a puppy from an unborn litter from some of the closer breeders to be held in my name because that would take a very long time. I have the most time at the end of the school year and during the summer, so I wanted to be sure I received the puppy when I could spend as long as needed interacting with it. Either way, I received a wonderful, lovable puppy that’s just not the hyperactive puppy I was expecting (maybe the new diet will change this).

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Anniko, I think you are taking the right steps with your puppy and what you describe above would concern me, too. Some of the lack of interest may change as you change her diet, so it might be worth keeping a daily journal on what you change and what the response is-that way you don't have to rely on your memory as much (kind of like what happens for me when I actually write down exactly what I eat or spend-it never really conforms to my memory of the same).

 

All of our border collie puppies got bored in puppy class, esp. with repeated exercises. One of them would just not participate at all and he never became a dog who liked classes. He is also not ball or toy motivated and I wasn't interested enough in making him become so to work consistently at it. He likes to explore and so, that's what he gets to do. He also likes to wrestle and be social with people, but we didn't find that out from classes or training. We just kept bringing him places to see what he'd do.

 

Rikki may find the walks overstimulating now and the sitting down might be her way of trying to overcome that. If there are places she knows and likes, let her go there and just see what she does on her own (assuming it's safe to let her go). If you know someone else with a border collie, you might take her there for a play date. I've found that our border collies tend to have the most fun with other border collies since the play styles are similar. Only one of our border collies (the one described above as it happens) will play with other breeds of dogs. The others mostly ignore them.

 

I found the book The Dog Whisperer by Paul Owen (not C. Milan, who has a book by the same title) pretty helpful for thinking about training puppies. One thing that I hadn't anticipated with a puppy was their truly minuscule attention spans. I'd think five minutes of training was nothing, but it was too much for them (formal training that is). By the time our most recent puppy joined the pack, I don't think we spent any time on formal training with him until he was about six months old. He was trained plenty, just not in "sessions". He learned by doing and seeing what happened when he did.

 

Good luck with the next couple of weeks as you try new things with Rikki, and keep asking when you have questions. There are some landmines lurking in discussions of Border Collies here, but if you don't let them throw you off track (which you haven't), you stand to find out a lot.

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All things equal, LF, your interest in genetics is one thing but playing with them to the detriment of the breed is another. While your dogs *work* that is obviously *not* your priority when breeding. No big deal your dogs.....however, no where have you mentioned sheep. Yet you have a lovely picture heading on your website. Who is the dog? Not yours? Permission for use from the owner granted?

 

 

Anniko, I'm please to read you are researchimg and educating yourself on raw feeding. Hopefully Rikki turns around. Please dont forget too you are soon to be coming into fear periods.

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The only odd colored BC would be Kuma the sable lilac.

Sable lilac...?

What does that even look like? Oh wait don´t answer that .I don´t wanna spoil the my little pony/ care bear image that it conjured up in my mind :rolleyes:

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I guess I will try and "address" everything one last time..

 

"(and cows and horses)" are in ( ) because I have them here but they are not "worked" by my BC's. I did have Kuma watch one of the gates for several days to keep the horses in because they kept getting out until it was fixed. But I do not consider that working horses. I am generally against BC's working horses but I thoroughly offended someone once when I refused to sell them a BC to work (corral/move) trained horses so I try find out more when people say their dogs work horses.

 

@ Sue

You're right I guess I am in the dark when it comes to the value of herding trials. While I have been to several opens and nursery trials (only in Scotland, Wales and other parts of the UK) I do not place trial abilities on the top of my priorities when raising my dogs and my puppies. I do apologize if it is thought that it should be the top/only priority with BC’s but this is a difference in opinions.

I would never say all of my dogs would be top notch trial dogs in opens, nursery or otherwise “if only I had time to train them” one can only speculate a dogs ability without actually proving it. I do not place their values on that. I do tell people who are specifically looking for a dog to take to trial whether I think a puppy from a specific litter would have potential or not because that is all I can do.

 

Maybe not all the people on this board are snide/rude but they are certainly opinionated on topics and I hate to get dragged into something where I feel the need to defend myself from comments that are untrue.

 

I agree color isn’t all there is to genetics. But little known to everyone else “color” does play an important role in human diseases (look it up, it is fascinating) and otherwise. Not only color but I have done the research on what traits genetics came into play to develop the perfect herding dog. Crouch from Spaniel breeds, Eye from Pointer/Setter breeds herd/chase originating from wolves. I have done EXSTENSIVE research on Canine Juv. Epilepsy even before one of my dogs was diagnosed with it.

Did you know there is a well-known sport/agility breeder pumping out hundreds of epileptic (carriers and otherwise) BC’s each year. It can be traced to a single litter that they kept and started their kennel with. If someone asks who and for the research I have done I am more then willing to provide it, but I will not plaster it all over the internet just to bad mouth someone I do not know or never met.

There is a now DNA test for canine epilepsy that has been worked on and tested, it is only a matter of time before it will be available here in the US.. So yes color genetics are neat but by all means it is not the only thing, I guess it isn’t apparent from others that do not know me or the work I have researched.

 

@ Julie I could not tell if you were directing everything you said to me or to the truly bad breeders out there that are pumping out “fancy/rare” dogs and charging more based on looks then ability.

That is not something I practice or condone with any dog, as their value is not based on looks.

 

I base my dog’s value on their ability to help me and what I personally see in them. I believe that people should be able to experience the BC breed without having to break the bank on a top notch trial winner. Not everyone wants a high end working BC. Some just want a family dog to help on their farm or an active dog to keep them company/busy. I know there are people that will say “they should just find another breed then” but I don’t think it’s fair to deny the intelligence and truly unique qualities of a BC just because there are those out there that think BCs are only needed for one purpose.

 

I can guarantee I spend more time with just one of my puppies then a top notch high end trial winning BC breeder does. This is because to me they are not just dogs but family. They provide us with more than just work and companionship. Honestly I probably respect them more than I do most people.

The one thing that I always believe in is that the herding instincts and all the traits that go into a BC should not be breed out or lost. This should be evident, but I guess I am not clear enough on my site. Again it goes back to I assume people ask and talk to me before forming opinions.

 

(also I don’t raise cattle other than our few used for my family only, so I could never say what is looked for in a cattle BC. The ones I have watched work are always gritty/tough and do bite to get a steer to move. As far as the herding kids comment, that is NOT what to look for in a BC nor does it qualify a BC as a good worker. As I said the ONLY BC I have that herds my son is going on 11yrs and she has never been bred for that very reason)

 

@ whomever keeps asking about the sheep. Several of my dogs have/do work sheep just not my own. Although I did pick up a trio of Icelandic lambs this year, they are not worked. The swaledale sheep photo is not my own and yes I do have permission to use it. As I said before my site started out as a site dedicated to the BC breed, my dogs and genetics it was not established to “sell” puppies as I only have on average 2 litters a year…

 

@ everyone else who feels the need to bash my dogs or me..

I do believe that respect and reputation is earned not given, but I don’t expect people to form opinions without even knowing my dogs, me or what I do. It truly pains me to read negative things (which simply aren’t true) and when I have several people sending me a message stating there is drama going on about my dogs or me I feel the need to at least defend them since they cannot defend themselves. Again I do not spend time on forums as I try to avoid overly opinionated (not saying that is anyone specific, just from my experience that is always present in forums) and drama filled discussions.

 

 

For anyone that has feedback to give me or questions to ask please feel free to contact me personally =)

 

I ALWAYS love to talk about BC’s, genetics, my animals or most animals for that fact. I will always try respect others opinions even if I do not always agree. The best I can hope for is that they are fair and unbiast.

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<<<<<<<<<<First and foremost ALL my Border Collies WORK ON MY FARM WITH GOATS AND DUCKS (and cows and horses). >>>

 

Please don't "work" your dogs on horses. No good can come from that practice.

 

 

 

<<<<<<<,My dogs work for me and no one else. I do not need to parade them around in a trial field to "prove" they are worthy. I know darn well they can go out and bring back a stray/stubborn goat or help me round them up to put them back in their pen.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Since you seem to have never attended a ISDS style trial, just fyi, the dogs do not "parade" at these events. They walk calmly to the post, off lease, until they are sent on their way , many times 600 + yds to pick up sheep. No parading involved. The weakest trial dog can "help round up a stray /stubborn goat and pen it. Your example does not paint a picture of a true work dog. These same trial dogs at the ranch.

 

Clearly you are going to go on breeding dogs they way you are presently, but really by trying to invalidate a true working Border Collie to make yourself feel better is not the way to impress any future buyers.

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When I originally posted this, my main aim was to get her more enthusiastic about training/learning simple obedience commands. I did not believe she had a health problem because she has been to the vet and she is not lethargic (as I've said before in my posts). I simply believed that I wasn’t training her correctly.

 

Anniko - since you are interested in training, I have a few suggestions for you.

 

First, based on what you say, giving your puppy a bit of a break from formal training for a while might not be a bad idea. She may well be confused, overstimulated, or stressed. Often when dogs aren't interested in food during training, something like that is the underlying reason.

 

If you do choose to take some time off, you might want to use the time to do some reading on training. The suggestion above of Paul Owens (not milan) Dog Whisperer is an excellent one.

 

You might also want to check out a book called "Reaching the Animal Mind" by Karen Pryor. It's not a "how to" type training book, but it is more of a reflection on animals and how they learn. It might give you some insight into less conventional ways to motivate your puppy.

 

Another book that I can't recommend highly enough is Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleashed Puppy". It is intended for those who plan to go into dog sports with their puppies, but there are applications for the exercises in the book that translate into everyday pet life, as well.

 

Control Unleashed Puppy isn't about how to train a puppy to sit or lie down, but on how to build the foundation for a good working relationship with the puppy. These types of exercises could really benefit a puppy who needs a break during training, and can give you the opportunity to actually make that break part of the motivation for training.

 

As far as food motivation, it can be built, but that may need to take place outside of the training context. You can use your dog's meals to do this - yes, you can do it with raw food, just clean your hands, and the surface that you work on afterward. Instead of asking for a behavior and using the food to reinforce, you can toss the dog a piece of food, c/t for taking the food. You could even toss the food into your dog's bowl to do this.

 

Personally, I wouldn't do that with every single meal, nor for the entire meal, but if I had a dog who was not initially food motivated, I would probably do something like that several times a week to build that motivation.

 

Just some food for thought - pun intended. :D I recommend all of this in addition to verifying that all is well health-wise, of course.

 

I wish you the best with your puppy.

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I can guarantee I spend more time with just one of my puppies then a top notch high end trial winning BC breeder does. This is because to me they are not just dogs but family.

 

On what basis do you make this guarantee?

 

****Edited out a question about breeding*********

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I guess I will try and "address" everything one last time..

 

"(and cows and horses)" are in ( ) because I have them here but they are not "worked" by my BC's. I did have Kuma watch one of the gates for several days to keep the horses in because they kept getting out until it was fixed. But I do not consider that working horses. I am generally against BC's working horses but I thoroughly offended someone once when I refused to sell them a BC to work (corral/move) trained horses so I try find out more when people say their dogs work horses.

I'm glad to see that you do not work horses with your dogs or sell dogs for use on horses. However, your own statement said, "First and foremost ALL my Border Collies WORK ON MY FARM WITH GOATS AND DUCKS (and cows and horses)." That certainly seemed to say that your dogs work...with goats and ducks (and cows and horses). I'm glad to hear that isn't the case.

 

You're right I guess I am in the dark when it comes to the value of herding trials. While I have been to several opens and nursery trials (only in Scotland, Wales and other parts of the UK) I do not place trial abilities on the top of my priorities when raising my dogs and my puppies. I do apologize if it is thought that it should be the top/only priority with BC’s but this is a difference in opinions.

I have never heard anyone here say that "trial abilities" should be "on the top of...priorities" when making breeding decisions. Stockworking abilities, which are tested in trialing, should be the top priority. Those stockworking abilities also include health, soundness, and temperment. There are many useful farm/ranch dogs that would never make good trial dogs. There are some trial dogs that don't make good farm/ranch dogs in certain situations (just as there are good farm/ranch dogs for one situation that would not be suitable for another farm/ranch situation).

 

What you seem not to understand is that trialing is a valid test of working ability, *along with* the farm/ranch work that also tests working ability. It is neither the "only" test nor is it necessarily the "best" test. It is one of several ways to evaluate a dog's ability and breed-worthiness. But it is a valid test nonetheless, at least partly because it provides testing outside the confines of the home farm, home flock or herd, and home facilities.

 

I would never say all of my dogs would be top notch trial dogs in opens, nursery or otherwise “if only I had time to train them” one can only speculate a dogs ability without actually proving it. I do not place their values on that. I do tell people who are specifically looking for a dog to take to trial whether I think a puppy from a specific litter would have potential or not because that is all I can do.

I didn't say you said that - others have said so here on other topics. It is easy to say that a person's dogs "herd" or "work", or that pups are guaranteed to "herd" or "work" - but do they do so at a high level, on challenging stock and in challenging situations? Do they show outstanding ability, or do they just go out and bring in the stock (that oftentimes knows the routine as well as or maybe better than the dog does)?

 

If you don't "test" your dogs with trialing or with serious farm/ranch work, how can you predict that pups from a litter will have a high likelihood of being successful farm/ranch or trial dogs> The little information you provide does not seem to indicate any real level of accomplishment, on the farm/ranch or on the trial field (perhaps with a puppy purchaser that has trained and trialed). If you are not really testing your dogs, then you are "only speculating a dog's ability without actually proving it".

 

I have dogs that work on our small farm where we calve out about 30 head of cows/first-calf heifers each year. There are people here who run small flocks or herds and large ones. All of these provide different work situations, and some of these dogs are tested hard by their work situations, and some less so. Some prove themselves worthy of breeding (because they can contribute to the working gene pool in a positive manner) and some prove themselves as useful but still not breeding material. Many of the more knowledgeable people here do trial, when and if they are able, and do so very successfully. But they don't dismiss the importance of practical, everyday work as well as the not-so-everyday work that crops up on the farm or ranch. They are people who, when they choose to breed, are contributing to the gene pool of the breed by carefully making decisions that will increase the chance of producing quality working pups.

 

Maybe not all the people on this board are snide/rude but they are certainly opinionated on topics and I hate to get dragged into something where I feel the need to defend myself from comments that are untrue.

We are certainly opinionated. Have you read the "Read This First"? That explains a lot about the philosophy of this board.

 

People here are not interested (in general) in color (or coat or ear set or size or other generally irrelevent characteristics). They are interested in working ability, health, soundness, and temperment - all part of the package of the working dog. And they don't breed dogs/bitches unless they feel they have proven themselves worthy of breeding, and have tested them with real work and (oftentimes) also trialing, so that they can evaluate them in various situations and get a well-rounded idea of just what they are capable of doing.

 

I agree color isn’t all there is to genetics. But little known to everyone else “color” does play an important role in human diseases (look it up, it is fascinating) and otherwise. Not only color but I have done the research on what traits genetics came into play to develop the perfect herding dog. Crouch from Spaniel breeds, Eye from Pointer/Setter breeds herd/chase originating from wolves. I have done EXSTENSIVE research on Canine Juv. Epilepsy even before one of my dogs was diagnosed with it.

Did you know there is a well-known sport/agility breeder pumping out hundreds of epileptic (carriers and otherwise) BC’s each year. It can be traced to a single litter that they kept and started their kennel with. If someone asks who and for the research I have done I am more then willing to provide it, but I will not plaster it all over the internet just to bad mouth someone I do not know or never met.

There is a now DNA test for canine epilepsy that has been worked on and tested, it is only a matter of time before it will be available here in the US.. So yes color genetics are neat but by all means it is not the only thing, I guess it isn’t apparent from others that do not know me or the work I have researched.

If "color" is associated with health, I would think a person would tend to wonder if there is a reason why the vast majority of working dogs are black/white and black/white/tri, and not "candy colors". We already know that there are some issues related to breeding involving excessive white and also the merle gene.

 

If you saw a topic where the breeder you allude to was mentioned, and you felt that people reading that topic might feel that that might be a breeder they would like to purchase from in the future, would you feel you were doing anyone a favor in not venturing an opinion? On a board like this, if a breeder is mentioned and no one says anything, yea or nay, isn't that an implicit recommendation? It is, if nothing else, publicity without commentary.

 

@ Julie I could not tell if you were directing everything you said to me or to the truly bad breeders out there that are pumping out “fancy/rare” dogs and charging more based on looks then ability.

That is not something I practice or condone with any dog, as their value is not based on looks.

Then why is your website virtually all about dogs of unusual color?

 

I base my dog’s value on their ability to help me and what I personally see in them. I believe that people should be able to experience the BC breed without having to break the bank on a top notch trial winner. Not everyone wants a high end working BC. Some just want a family dog to help on their farm or an active dog to keep them company/busy. I know there are people that will say “they should just find another breed then” but I don’t think it’s fair to deny the intelligence and truly unique qualities of a BC just because there are those out there that think BCs are only needed for one purpose.

Who here has said people need to "break the bank on a top notch trial winner"? What is a "high end working BC"? The best working-bred pups (here in North America) are reasonably priced, much lower than many show/sport-bred pups. A fully-trained, Open-level winning dog/bitch will cost more - but probably way less than the value of the training and raising that went into bringing that dog to the level it is at.

 

This needs to be my last comment on this topic. I have way too much to occupy myself to spend more time on it.

 

PS - Well, except for one more thing. I've met a few breeders or trainers who are bothered when someone seeks information/advice from other sources (as well as the breeder or trainer). That usually says volumes about that breeder or trainer because someone who is producing quality pups or trains well with good results, is not going to be offended by a person who asks for a variety of opinions and options.

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How can you guarantee that? How much time have you spent with "top notch high end trial winning BC breeders" when they had litters on the ground?

 

I honestly don't understand how you can be preserving working ability while also breeding "family dogs to help on the farm" and "active dogs for companionship". Those are different functional goals. What do you do to insure the preservation of working ability when making your breeding decisions? (I'm honestly curious not trying to bait you.)

 

Sorry I guess your right I have not spent time with trial winning BC breeders here in the states only over in the UK. And even there it was a very brief period and only a dozen or so. It is a bit large on my part to guarantee that, but it is my opinion based on what I have seen.

 

I am preserving the working ability in my dogs. I have not/will not cross them with undriven/non-herding ability BC's I am aware that this is not on the same scale as what other people consider a working BC. Again this is just my opinion. If it's not up to other people's standards then I imagine they will go somewhere else to buy a puppy. As I said I do not raise more then 2 (on average) litters per year. I am not a LARGE scale breeder nor would I want to be.

 

@ Crocker

I did not mean to put down a TRUE ISDS style working BC. Yes I have been to ISDS trials (most recent was this past fall)I have plenty of pictures posted of the trials and the BC's there and runs. I respect them and their handlers, it is obvious that it takes time, dedication and intense training for both dog and handler.

The reason I worded it so harshly is because to me, the hostility in the "grrr Trial Winning BC's ONLY!" people are no different the the "grrr AKC top multi-CH Show BC's ONLY!" people. Both groups spend a large amount of time and dedication to produce a BC on either side of the fence (same goes for spot BC's) and preserve the breed for their own purposes.

 

I am not breeding for either as I don't see a BC's only worth based on such extremes. My puppies do go on to working homes, agility homes, used for SAR, and therapy work.

 

They have not gone to AKC show homes and they have not gone on to competitive trial homes. They are not sold to people only looking for a "Candy Colored" BC.

 

Again I am not a large scale breeder, but I do health test all my dogs and all the puppies. Like I said I have a 4 page law binding contract just to make sure people understand what they are getting and to prevent one of my puppies going to the wrong person.

 

If any of my previous comments makes me a bad person or bad "breeder" in your eyes the only thing I can do is invite people to talk to me, visit me, my dogs or their offspring. You are more then welcome to form your own opinion.

 

I'm sorry I did not read the "read this first" section as I got dragged into this...

 

Anna again I'm sorry you are having training issues with Rikki, at first it seemed like it could have been a health issue, but from everything you said it is likely overwork/stimulation, she is after all only a 4month old pup.

(ps she was raised/trained offleash as all my BC's are, it may take her some time to learn how to enjoy walking on a leash)

 

By all means if you have more problems/questions you only need to call/email me and I will work with you to come up with a solution.

 

I am not against anyone going other places for help or other opinions but on the same token I wish I would have known so I could help instead of being blindsided by comments made on a forum.

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>>

I can guarantee I spend more time with just one of my puppies then a top notch high end trial winning BC breeder does. This is because to me they are not just dogs but family. They provide us with more than just work and companionship. Honestly I probably respect them more than I do most people.

<<

 

OK, let me address this. You are painting all top notch high end trial winning BC breeders with is statement...the one top notch high end trial winning BC breeder that I know quite well, raises the litters in the house and they are quite well socialized, raised and loved. You can even pick on me, even though I am not a top notch high end winning BC breeder...the last litter that Nan had, the pups were raised in the house until they were 8 weeks old. They had lots of people, children and handling time. I do this with all of my pups.

 

Are you basing your statement on perhaps a few breeders, one breeder or what?

 

Ok, let's say for the sake of argument, you are trying to better the breed. First of all, I would not post the color as the first item. Post the trial and work success as one of the standard. next would be health and temperement. If you don't trial as a standard, show how your dogs work....I have gotten pups from working ranches that never set a foot on the trial field but the parents worked large flocks for a living. Or cattle. All day. Unbroke.

 

Go to a few trial. Go to a few clinic. Take a few private lessons. Ask people for help. Maybe send one of your top bred pup to a top trainer for training and see what he/she thinks...this will help you evaulate what your are producing.

 

I used to be on the "dark side" myself...until one day I met some USBCHA folks. They certainly didn't approve of how I trained my dogs or my style but I was open to seeing what they were all about. Do the same as it made a life changing experience for me.

 

I love genetics and talking about it but I certainly don't have a clue on it. I ask my cousin Mark B, who is on this board, since he knows that. When I think I want to breed one of my bitches, I write down the pros and cons of the bitch, talk to my mentor to see if I am off base, ask him advice on what male would be a good nick. Just when I think I know it all, he points out flaws that I have missed. (he knows my females)...we look at past breeding of the male or females or sibling or parents, how well those pups have done, the list goes on. Sometimes after a discussion, I then decide not to bred the female, even though i have buyers lined up.

 

If I am going to have a bitch bring pups into this world. I want to make sure the pups will be better than the parents.

 

Not all of the pups that we had breed turned out to be top Open dogs. Some didn't make the grade but are great pets. Not all the pups from any litter will be top winners but by breeding the best to the best, you improve the breed. Fix the ones that don't make the grade.

 

 

I appreciate that you have come on the boards. I hope you will do go and work your dogs on sheep at some clinic or lesson. I have been educated over the years and had to take the hard knocks too.

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Anniko, a quick story. I have a two year old bc/aussie cross, she was originally a foster. When she came to us we thought she was deaf (she's not), totally uninvolved, very little interest in anything, would sit a lot and look around, seemingly content to let the world go by. She was very hard to read, and still is now in a different way. Against everything that I am, I did very little training other than necessary life skills and games, and what I did would take about a minute each session, I just let her be much of the time. This is not to say she did not get a ton of attention, I just made little demand on her. The word "autistic" kept coming up. It took her until about 8 months old to even start tugging with a short spurt of interest, it took her longer to engage completely in whatever we were doing. She climbed out of her 3' ft. high Xpen at 6 weeks old and was a good escape artist in general :). I started seeing a change at about 1.5 years. She is now a bit over 2 and is probably my smartest, quickest, most polite (except she still jumps on me at times of excitement, something I did not address when young because it was SOMETHING) dog with an excellent sense of humor. Her demeanor is still laid back, easy and she gets along with any dog, any time and loves EVERYONE, which is quite nice! She has very good instincts and if you saw her now, one would never know she's the same dog. I believe most things just overwhelmed her when she was small and I believe that if I had not just let her be I would have really screwed her up! With my A type personality I learned that it's OK for a pup to just be a pup and each dog has to be acknowledged and nurtured for who they are, not for who we want/expect them to be. Enjoy her puppiness, it does not last long enough :).

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The way we taught her first command, sit, was by holding food out of her reach and waiting until she sat down. I then pressed the clicker, said "sit" and gave her the chicken along with enthusiastic praise.

 

If there is anyone near you running clicker classes I would recoomend that you go along as that isn't quite the right order of doing things.

 

Dog sits, click, treat - fine.

 

But only introduce the verbal cue when you are sure that the next thing the dog will do is what you are wanting - and give the verbal cue immediately before the dog sits, and click when it has sat.

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