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Anniko

Unenthusiastic Puppy

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Yes, I hope she finds out what is wrong with her pup and hope to hear the stories on the pup!

 

 

My point is do the research and ask people here for advice. do not ever take the word of the breeder that they are good, ask around....visit them....see what they have done!

 

I got a pup from a BYB breeder, riddled with health and aggression issues.....I wish I knew what I know now...but we never gave up on Shiro and she was part of our family. Most of her litter were put down to either going blind or very aggressive. She was a hell pup to raise and any other puppy after her, no matter how tough, is a piece of cake. We loved our BYB puppy and she returned the love tenfold.

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From the breeder's website: **Starting in 2011 I have switched our dogs and cats to an All Natural RAW (Prey model) diet.. I understand that this is not an option/decision for everyone. I will need to know ahead of time if you would *NOT* like your puppy exposed to a RAW diet. In the past I have had puppies raised on Blue Buffalo Wilderness/mixed with the puppy formula. This is my second choice and it is usually widely available at most Big Box Petstores**

 

It does not say that she is only feeding chicken thighs and pumpkin.

I didn't see this on the site, but it ties in with my earlier comments that the breeder probably starts them on easy to eat stuff like chicken thighs, but obviously thighs aren't the whole prey. So it's possible there's a misunderstanding between the OP and the breeder regarding the proper way to raw feed. In any case, if the OP wants to continue to raw feed she needs to educate herself on doing it properly for the puppy's sake.

 

J.

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Anniko, Sorry that your decisions have been disected and invalidated. You did your best based on the information you had at the time. Would have been great had you asked us first, but you didn't so now what?

 

Going forward, Border Collie breeders who do not have time-tested trialing and/or working credentials should be avoided at all costs. And by working, I don't mean some sheep/cattle in pens around the house. Breeders who refer to "cattle" lines should be avoided at all costs imo, because they apparently don't know their "cattle" dogs came from sheep dogs. In their breeding programs they will move away from the very traits that made Border Collies premiere stock dogs and aguably the most intelligent dog in the world. I can show you examples of the results.

 

Reading your posts, I suggest your expectations are off base for your puppy and she's not happy. I set "good manners" boundaries for my puppies, but ask almost nothing else of them until they're 6 or 7 months old. By good manners, I mean they can't put their feet on me, they can't bark, they can't jump on the fences, gates, kennel, etc. I allow absolutely no aggression whatsoever, but I do let them be puppies for as long as possible.

 

Try backing off on all the training, and see if you can just get your puppy to follow you around. Spend lots of time sitting and loving. Just let her be whoever she is, and let her grow up a bit. It may be that she is just the world's most subdued Border Collie, and there could be any number of reasons for that, including health.

 

So, yes I too would have a signifigant health work up done, and I'd make sure it included x-rays of her abdomen.

 

Don't let all the indirect criticism in this thread sway you. (Your breeder is stupid, therefore you are too) Every single one of us has learned the hard way at some point. Then there's those who don't even know what they don't know.

 

I hope you love your dog no matter what, and give her a loving, forever home where she is given every opportunity to thrive.

 

Please continue participating here, and please continue to ask.

 

Best wishes...

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^^Agreed. Lots of colorful dogs for sure. Lots of red flags is an understatement. I'll keep my opinion to myself. I never knew there was so much merle in cow dog lines.

 

To the OP: I think you'd be better off seeking the advice of a nutritionist than asking for more feeding advice from the breeder.

 

J.

I can't say how many times I wrote something concerning my opinion of what I saw on the website that was a red flag issue, and deleted it. But, since others have mentioned some issues, I'll say that I have to agree with what they said. A pretty website and some well-known or popular (in some circles) names do not make a good breeder or someone whose advice is necessarily sound.

 

But, you have your puppy now and the issue is to provide her with the best care, nutrition, and training that you can - and I think you've gotten a lot of feedback with regards to those needs.

 

Again, best wishes!

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And, for what it's worth, I don't have an issue with people pointing out reservations they have with any breeder that someone refers to on these boards. To not do so is to endorse a breeder that someone has written positively about, and perhaps then mislead another potential buyer into purchasing from a less-responsible source.

 

We have all (or at least the more fallible of us) made mistakes and, hopefully, learned from them and are willing to share what we have learned in a effort to avoid someone else making the same mistakes.

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Thanks for all the advice. I guess it's an understatement to say I don't have enough experience about these things.

 

I went out to get some different types of meat, beef liver and plain yogurt. I added some of the beef liver (which she very happily attacked!) to her dinner tonight, and will be doing more research and getting books on how to properly feed raw. I looked back through my emails with the breeder and to her credit she did say in one of the first emails that she gives her dogs liver. I overlooked it because it was not repeated later. We had already figured out that too much bone causes constipation, so she has been getting only 1-2 bones a week.

 

Thankfully, she does not have discolored gums, bruises, or glassy eyes with discharge.

 

Other than the current problem we have been making progress with her- her separation anxiety is gone, and she is no longer afraid/aggressive toward most people and dogs. We have also gotten her past a few fears she developed (lawn mower, for example). I will be doing more research and we hope to keep making good progress with her.

 

By the way, our puppy's name is Rikki and despite not being as energetic as expected, the puppy does love us, follows me around religiously, and comes up with rather creative games to play with her ball.

 

I will be sticking around and asking for help as needed :)

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Amelia

 

>>. Breeders who refer to "cattle" lines should be avoided at all costs imo, because they apparently don't know their "cattle" dogs came from sheep dogs. In their breeding programs they will move away from the very traits that made Border Collies premiere stock dogs and aguably the most intelligent dog in the world. I can show you examples of the results.<<<

 

Gee, a good portion of my dogs are from cattle lines....my foundation bitch Tess is from Cattle lines......so here I am showing you an "example of the results".....she must be worthless, eh?

 

Please don't interject your disdain for those of us who work cattle or have cattledog lines.

 

We are all happy she got a new puppy. She asked for advice. We gave her our opinion and furthermore, not one of us "said she was stupid"

 

She loves her puppy. She is trying to do right by her pup. We sure hope she keeps us updated.

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Anniko

That's great. We have all made mistakes believe me.

 

But the important thing is to just love Rikki and move forward.

 

Sounds like you are getting her diet on the right track. Just a word of caution sometimes new types of meat especially liver may cause a bit of loose stool, so start easy on the new stuff and let her body adjust. Yogurt is great, don't forget fishoil..use the wild salmon kind. If you have any questions on raw just ask.

 

Give you puppy time..love her and let her progress at her own speed. Waiting to hear lots of updates.

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RoseAmy,

Can you recommend some good books for Anniko? I have a couple, but I don't know anymore what dedicated raw feeders consider a good resource. Maybe you have or can point Anniko to some good resources?

 

Anniko,

I'm glad you're going to do some more research on raw feeding. It is a great way to feed, but the onus is on you to make sure she gets a balanced diet. It may be smart while she's a puppy to add a good multivitamin daily just to be safe. I think that for puppies it's much more important to feed a balanced diet daily vs. say a prey model diet where the dog's diet is balanced over a period of time. But I'll admit that I am not a raw feeding expert, and there are a lot of opinions out there and what's acceptable and what's not. For me, the fact that her energy level is low and she seems disinclined to learn point to a lack of some important nutrients in her diet.

 

I still think it would be a good idea to have a vet check, just to be safe. You don't need to spend a fortune on diagnostics, just some basic bloodwork and then whatever your vet thinks makes sense. I really think improving her diet will help, but because she's not a typical 4.5-month old it wouldn't hurt to get her checked over. It will give you peace of mind and it will give you some baseline information that you can use in the future should she ever become sick (that is, you'll have information on what's normal *for her* which can be very helpful--for example, whenever I have a urinalysis, there is protein in my urine--sorry if this is TMI, just trying to use a real-life example. Most doctors are cocerned about that finding, but if they know that it's *always* that way for me and therefore *normal* for me, they let it go.)

 

I also agree with the person that mentioned too much enthusiasm on your part being pressure on Rikki. Because they are so smart and fast learners, people tend to have very high expectations of their puppies. As I told someone in the working section not too long ago, it never hurts to let them just be puppies. Even if you give her a couple of months to just be, to settle in to your routine, to get used to all of you, she won't end up that far behind where she'd be if she was accepting your training right now. Once she settles and "turns on" to training (and perhaps feels better with better nutrition), she will catch up very quickly.

 

Good luck and keep us posted!

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As well as a vet visit I'd suggest getting her on a high quality kibble until you learn and understand raw feeding. Let her system get back on track and get healthy then blend back into raw.

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As well as a vet visit I'd suggest getting her on a high quality kibble until you learn and understand raw feeding. Let her system get back on track and get healthy then blend back into raw.

 

This ^^^

 

She needs a balanced diet now!

 

If you want to stick with something close to raw while you do your research you could use something like The Honest Kitchen Thrive or Embark which are both dehydrated all life stages foods. One way or another she needs to have her nutritional bases covered right away.

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Check out the community of raw feeders over on this forum http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/ I got some excellent advice over there when I first started out. So many threads in the archives pretty much my one stop place for any and all raw info.

 

(just watch the trolls from the kibble forums that go over and bash raw feeding, most of them are hopeless and have no clue what they they are talking about)

 

Also consider buyin some pre made raw food until you learn the ropes, it's Hella expensive but ok if you will be switching over yourself soon enough. Thy way your pups system isn't getting shocked with the kibble and he's getting all he needs nutritional wise. Or consider that urban carnivore stuff, they have a how to Guide on what meat to add to their supplement.

 

Best of luck !!

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A real simple, easy book to get started on raw is "Raw Dog Food, make it easy for you and your dog", by Carina MacDonald. It's short, sweet, entertaining and informative. Also nice to have some Honest Kitchen or Sojos on hand for those days when one doesn't want to think about it all :). If you supplement with kibble, just make sure you don't feed kibble at the same meal with the raw... different digestion rates.

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I would definitely second (or third) to either get your dog on a good premade balanced raw diet or to switch to good kibble for now while you research the raw diet. An unbalanced raw or homemade diet can be very dangerous to your dog. I did about 2 months of research on raw before switching and I still use premade for my guys as well as 'real raw' just because the premade is made to be a balanced diet nutritionally.

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I would definitely second (or third) to either get your dog on a good premade balanced raw diet or to switch to good kibble for now while you research the raw diet. An unbalanced raw or homemade diet can be very dangerous to your dog. I did about 2 months of research on raw before switching and I still use premade for my guys as well as 'real raw' just because the premade is made to be a balanced diet nutritionally.

 

I think switching over to kibble after she has been fed raw all her life would be a bit drastic.

 

She has stopped being constipated for a while now and she has no physical manifestations of illness that the vet saw. I will be taking her to the vet again to get a blood sample and any other tests that the vet says may show that her nutrition is poor.

 

Also, I did not say that she was lethargic. She does have energy, but not as much as she should. Some days (yesterday and this morning for example) she has much more energy than others. Maybe the liver helped?

 

I am still researching how to fix her diet, but so far, these are the changes I have decided on for the following week:

 

Everything will be introduced gradually. If she has good stool after introducing Turkey necks, I plan to alternate turkey necks with the chicken thighs for every other meal for about a week.

Along with this, I will give 10% bone (of either the chicken or turkey) and small amounts of beef liver at evening meals, working up to 10%. Yes, I actually plan on weighing out the amounts at least once to make sure I have an idea of exactly what 10% is.

 

We are also adding a daily multivitamin and glucosamine supplement and we already have dog treats that have omega fish oils in them that we have been using.

 

I want to keep giving her the pumpkin puree, but I’m not sure if she still needs it or how often to give it.

 

I will give her two tablespoons of the plain yogurt every other day with her evening meal as well. I know this isn’t exactly ‘raw prey model’ anymore but it is still raw for the most part.

 

Since so many people are suggesting kibble or pre-made raw I will look into that as well. I am rather reluctant to give her kibble, but pre-made raw seems like a sound idea. I just don't know how I would introduce it to her diet or if I would have to stop giving her raw if I decided to do this.

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Turkey necks and chicken thighs are way to much bone. Necks are almost all bone. You need to add beef, lamb, and pork meat. You need to have hunks of meat without bone. Think heart, tongue, etc. Liver is an organ meat counts as 10% organ not meat. Remember it's 80% meat..which means hunks of meat without bone. 10% bone and 10% organ.

 

Beef heart is a muscle meat that is very nutritious. To be successful at raw you must feed a variety of meats..It can be expensive.

 

You got some good resourses for learning about raw..Join raw feeding yahoo groups..a wealth of imformation.

 

Also I would have a fecal done on your puppy make sure he doesn't have a load of worms..can be a common problem in puppys.

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^^^ what she said x2 and what everyone else said!

 

Since she is still a baby you really need to make sure she gets all the nutrition she needs to grow up healthy.

 

Also just a side note not sure where you get your meat but remember that a lot of grocery stores meat isnt always the best with all of the additives that can be sprayed or injected into the meat.

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Turkey necks and chicken thighs are way to much bone. Necks are almost all bone. You need to add beef, lamb, and pork meat. You need to have hunks of meat without bone. Think heart, tongue, etc. Liver is an organ meat counts as 10% organ not meat. Remember it's 80% meat..which means hunks of meat without bone. 10% bone and 10% organ.

 

Beef heart is a muscle meat that is very nutritious. To be successful at raw you must feed a variety of meats..It can be expensive.

 

 

I did look at the resources people gave me, and read that raw diet should be started with chicken and then turkey necks or wings should be added in. I have been cutting out the bone from the chicken thighs as I know it is too much and plan to do the same thing with the turkey. Hopefully I won't have too much trouble de-boning it. I am counting the beef liver as her organ meat, but read that I should introduce it gradually so depending on how her stools look, I may or may not give 10% initially. I am going to be feeding a variety eventually but I will only introduce one new meat a week.

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Also just a side note not sure where you get your meat but remember that a lot of grocery stores meat isnt always the best with all of the additives that can be sprayed or injected into the meat.

 

I make sure to get all-natural organic meat.

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I have been feeding raw for about 15 years. I am not anal about percentages and amounts. Typically my dogs are eating a rotating schedule of ground meats, some with bone-in, some without ... chicken, turkey, beef, duck, herring and lamb. Periodically I acquire venison and moose and rabbit. They get the ground meat for breakfast.

 

For dinner we alternate between chicken backs and necks, turkey necks, pork hocks and sometimes they just get a pork shoulder blade (usually recreational, but sometimes they get it for dinner instead).

 

We add salmon oil, some joint supplements, sometimes olive oil and either cottage cheese or yogurt ... which they probably don't need, but seem to enjoy the taste. The ground meats often have bone and always organ meat mixed in. I don't feed veggies as a general rule - sometimes the ground meats come with them depending where I buy them, and sometimes I add green beans when dieting the fat dogs.

 

I purchase in bulk from a local butcher that makes this specifically for dogs. I am feeding 6 or 7 dogs; i think you would be okay buying pre-made for a single dog, price-wise.

 

RDM

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Also, isn't it correct that if you're supposed to feed 3-5% of the dog's weight that it should be 3-5% of expected adult weight? The real key is variety. Yes you start with a single protein to get them used to it, but you do need to expand to more than just poultry and liver.

 

J.

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Since so many people are suggesting kibble or pre-made raw I will look into that as well. I am rather reluctant to give her kibble, but pre-made raw seems like a sound idea. I just don't know how I would introduce it to her diet or if I would have to stop giving her raw if I decided to do this.

 

You can just switch her to a premade or add in something like the Honest Kitchen with no issue. Right now I'd be more concerned about getting the nutritional bases covered than switching slowly. I think you should have no issue doing a balanced raw diet, but I'm still a bit concerned because it sounds like your pup's diet has been imbalanced for a while. I'd presonally want get her on a balanced food right now and keep her on it for a month or so then work your way back to doing your own raw. JMO.

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You can just switch her to a premade or add in something like the Honest Kitchen with no issue. Right now I'd be more concerned about getting the nutritional bases covered than switching slowly. I think you should have no issue doing a balanced raw diet, but I'm still a bit concerned because it sounds like your pup's diet has been imbalanced for a while. I'd presonally want get her on a balanced food right now and keep her on it for a month or so then work your way back to doing your own raw. JMO.

 

Ok. In that case I may feed her Primal Raw supplemented with different raw foods (chicken, turkey, other meats, 10% beef liver, 10% meaty bones, etc.).

 

I'm looking through reviews of different premade raw foods right now. I only glanced at Honest Kitchen but it's a bit disconcerting to read that one of the supplements had been mislabeled and banned from two states and that all the dog foods have bizarre names like "love." Or maybe I'm just being a bit overcritical now.

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huh. Never heard the banned thing before in all of my abundant dog food research.

 

As for names, well, I go by results rather than names. Besides is "Love" or "Embark" really different than "Beneful" or "Primal"? Dog food names all given to appeal to humans in some manner... Anyways, IME, Two of my dogs now have had signifficant health issues that went away with the addition of THK foods to their diet. I don't think it's a cure all or the perfect diet for every dog, but I've had enough success with it to feel good about recommending it.

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