Cyberdog Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 breed (br d) v. bred (br d), breed•ing, breeds v.tr. 1. A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation. What makes a breed of dog? I realized that I hadn’t properly considered this question, and that its answer drives many of my personal ethics concerning dog breeding. One way to make a breed is to create a set of criterion for each variety so that each breed can be told apart from one another. This sort of system is problematic because developed standards are subjective by nature. Health and behavior are inherently more subjective descriptors of dogs than appearance, and therefore neglected when creating these criterion. What I describe as an ‘aloof’ dog may not match your description and so on. A Labrador with hip dysplasia is still a Labrador because it looks like one. But what is to stop anyone from having a dog that happens to look like a Labrador, from calling it a Labrador? Breed registries. I contend that the existence of closed breed registries, rather than written standards, make a breed what it is. There are some border collies and aussies that are hardly distinguishable, but maintained in different breed registries with care taken not to mix the two. One of my favorite examples is the pudel pointer. http://www.pudelpointer.org/ Pudel pointers are not recognized by any kennel club; only by their own registries and hunting organizations. No one will argue, however, that the pudel pointer isn’t a real breed of dog. The same can be said for designer breeds like labradoodles, who are in the early stages of maintaining breed registries. So long as there is an interested group of people set on maintaining a relatively closed registry, a new breed can be created. So when asked, “What makes a border collie a border collie?” The answer is that we make a border collie a border collie. Prick ears, floppy ears, black and white, tri color, merle, long hair, short hair, medium hair, blue eyes, brown eyes, big, small, intense, soft, and powerful. It doesn’t matter what they look like, or how they behave, so long as they are in the right registry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 March-April 2012 Issue "International Sheepdog News", published by ISDS, contains a thought provoking article by Roy Goutte, bemoaning the gradual demise of all-round unregistered farm dogs. Goutte, a British breeder and trainer, argues that line-breeding, may be superior to out-crossing in order to maintain ancestral work ethic and stamina of the Border Collie. Farmers of old, he says, bred from a tried-and-true local dog down the lane, who in all likelihood was already related to some degree. Breeders one hundred years ago didn't travel long distances to find a good stud dog. Line-breeding was the norm. With the advent of regulated sheepdog trialing, out-crossing to registered champions became commonplace. Litters became a mixed-bag. Some puppies were good and some poor. Culling by this time was frowned upon, so not-so-good pups were sold and bred. Line-breeding began to lag behind out-crossing. Goutte claims the problem with out-crossing is that handler qualities were introduced into the mix. A weak dog over-handled by a skilled competitor on flighty sheep could look good, and place high. Those same sheep would, "disappear over the horizon when a 'real' dog appears". Goutte believes that a strong powerful farm dog (real dog) is therefore at a disadvantage to a weaker out-crossed registered dog who lies well off its sheep, and is robotically commanded about the course by a skilled handler. The consequence of these circumstances is that registered dogs in trialing and farming today have been subjected to a change in breeding practices, yet unregistered farm dogs have not. Goutte accounts for the way farm dogs brought to him for training have such a, "thirst and enthusiasm for work". He says they, "are a joy to handle, and three in particular that I am currently training I could work all day...". Goutte says the time-honored method of line-breeding to other local hard working farm dogs is the reason that such qualities as endurance, enthusiasm, brains, pace and balance have been retained. Breeding should not be influenced by a top trial handler running a moderate registered dog, but by true worth of the dog as valued on a farm. He points out absurdity of the present system which justifiably allows dogs that, for whatever reason, are not registered to gain entry into stud books through Registry on Merit via proving their worth. Yet, at the same time, current rules allow already registered dogs having little or no demonstrated working ability to be bred without limitation. The article concludes by asking such questions as whether sheepdog community should consider the Austrian way of not allowing registry until both parents have proven ability. Perhaps, careful thought for health and performance reasons, should be given to whether ISDS will allow a certain dog to be put to a particular bitch. Goutte does not have a definitive solution, but believes "much thought and structured consideration" is needed, and that changes won't happen overnight. IMO, Roy Goutte would disagree with Cyberdog. Goutte makes a thoughtful argument that work ethic and other performance qualities make a Border Collie, and that unregistered farm-derived border collies who found their breeding in other local dogs, are frequently superior. -- TEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 I don´t think cyberdog means that the fact that the registry defines the breed is the "right way" to maintain a good working dog breed. On a dutch forum I also come I have often read the opinion "if the dog does not have papers it is not a pure breed", regardless of what parents it has. In other words it is the registration that makes the breed. AKC seems to share that opinion, the border collie was "just" a type before they honored it with their attention .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRhodes Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 March-April 2012 Issue "International Sheepdog News", published by ISDS, contains a thought provoking article by Roy Goutte, bemoaning the gradual demise of all-round unregistered farm dogs. Goutte, a British breeder and trainer, argues that line-breeding, may be superior to out-crossing in order to maintain ancestral work ethic and stamina of the Border Collie. Interesting. Is there some place I can read the original article? Also, does anyone know what criteria the Austrian registry mentioned requires for 'proven working ability' for registration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdog Posted March 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think TEC is making this point that you can have, what most everyone would consider a border collie, that is not registered through any kind of breed registry. I have had a dog that fit this description, and I think everyone was quite comfortable calling him a border collie, but some of the same folks would probably not be as comfortable breeding the dog. The dog in my avatar picture is half border collie/half McNab, but no one is any the wiser that she is a mix if I don't say anything. Knowing that, if I met all the ROM requirements for the ABCA, would it be okay to register the dog in my picture on merit? She looks just like a border collie... I also think that TEC's points about line breeding and some other problems inherent in registries are really worth some soul searching, as well as how breeders run their registration on merit programs. When I was a kid, any kind of hunting or working dog that couldn't do its work was culled, or neutered and re-homed, pretty quickly. Our family dog was a gun shy labrador who was facing those circumstances. I think that for many non-registered farm and ranch dogs their fate might still be the same. Its not like there's a study on the topic; so who knows? The little farm dogs I've had in the past were all exceptionally healthy and hardy dogs. So, I think that when it comes to farm dogs we tend to think "If it looks like a border collie, and quacks like a border collie, its a border collie." Which, oddly enough, is based on the conformation of the animal. If you met a farm dog that herded, and behaved, just like a border collie, but had a wirehair coat, you probably wouldn't call it border collie. My point here is that this is really worth thinking about, whatever your personal conclusions are. I think we take these things for granted sometimes. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Yes if your dog could work to a sufficient standard it could be registered as a border collie. Though if the McNab half is so important I don't know why you'd want to register as something else. What would you tell people who might want to breed? "Well, she's registered as a border collie, but she's really half McNab!" I think there are some who would dispute whether the McNab and the border collie breed are that distinctly different (genetically). There is no definitive history of the McNab (every site that talks about McNabs tells the exact same story), and like with many of the KC breeds, it seems "just so" stories abound regarding the development of the breed. Even the breed description could be that of a border collie. It would be like me breeding my own line of working dogs (starting with border collies) and calling them Julios--they would all be smooth coated and prick eared, and maybe along the way I would add a little something of this or that in there, just to tweak things and make them, you know, unique, but I still think that genetically speaking they'd be mostly border collie, no matter what I called them (just recently someone asked me if I grew all my dogs with giant pricked ears--maybe I could call them Bat-eared sheepdogs and market them that way). Years from now, people would mention that the origins of the bat-eared dogs are lost in the mists of time, but they might be descended from Scotch collies or maybe border collies, but you know, they're a completely separate breed--folks just don't realize it because they look just like border collies, except with really BIG ears! Anyway ROM isn't about what the dog looks like; it's about how she works. It would be interesting to see what sort of genetics the two types (border collie and McNab) share. I'd be willing to bet that they are more closely related than the McNab breeders would like anyone to believe--if they're mostly the same, then how would you market one as a better choice than the other? But I guess this is all a major digression. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 This caught my attention: "So, I think that when it comes to farm dogs we tend to think "If it looks like a border collie, and quacks like a border collie, its a border collie." Which, oddly enough, is based on the conformation of the animal. If you met a farm dog that herded, and behaved, just like a border collie, but had a wirehair coat, you probably wouldn't call it border collie." Well neither of mine has wirehair (whew!) - but if you looked at them, you would definitely call both of them border collies. That said, neither are "farm dogs." One was bred by a sheep farmer - parents both herded "for a living." She won't even look at livestock (or anything else that runs - bunnies, lizards, goats, etc.). Curiously, ABCA registered and breeding. The other was 'sports bred' - and is a total idiot when it comes to herding. Perhaps that is lack of exposure/experience - he WANTS to chase, bark, and carry on. But never has shown the least bit of restraint. And since I don't care, he probably never will. Love 'em both, call 'em both border collies...but no. diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdog Posted April 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Love 'em both, call 'em both border collies...but no. diane What do you mean by the, "but no" part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 If you met a farm dog that herded, and behaved, just like a border collie, but had a wirehair coat, you probably wouldn't call it border collie. My point here is that this is really worth thinking about, whatever your personal conclusions are. I think we take these things for granted sometimes. Cheers. I am one who would not immediately recognize a wirehaired herding dog's appearance as a Border Collie. It's interesting...do others in this thread know whether such a dog could prove itself on sheep to gain ROM? Was always under the impression that to obtain ROM, a herding dog had to more-or-less resemble registered examples of the breed. Don't know whether I agree that an excellent herding dog should be prevented from registry as Border Collie based on its appearance, but I believe that is the case. The same issue of the ISDS publication containing the Goutte article, has Part 12 of "The History of the Shepherd's Dog". Therein, Carole Presberg in an amazingly well documented and thorough essay, has researched bearded (sometimes know as rough coated) Border Collies. She notes that Border Collie genes allow for smooth, rough and bearded coats, and that many bearded Border Collies, were registered as having a "rough coat", making historical research difficult. Presberg provides an example of conventionally coated ISDS-registered Border Collie parents who occasionally throw a beardie. One beardie, Lone, is purebred and registered with ISDS as "rough coated". A photo depicts, IMO a bearded coat dog (mustache, and long hair on face and eyes), not rough coated. Unusual yes, yet still a true Border Collie. Shows the wonderful diversity of the breed. Can't say enough superlatives about quality of "International SheepDog News". Highly recommend it. -- Kind regards, TEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Anyway ROM isn't about what the dog looks like; it's about how she works. Unlike many other "breeds" that are defined by how they *look* when they are not doing anything (for example, in the show ring), ^^^ this is what defines the Border Collie. I keep seeing the word "appearance" (or the equivalent) throughout this discussion and it is not about appearance. It is about how the dog thinks, acts, moves, responds. It's more about the mind than the body. Maybe that's why, more and more, I am liking the way the folks in the British Isles call them "working sheepdogs" or "collies". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I am one who would not immediately recognize a wirehaired herding dog's appearance as a Border Collie. It's interesting...do others in this thread know whether such a dog could prove itself on sheep to gain ROM? There have been threads on here in the past about bearded dogs. Polly Matzinger runs two of them. They are both mostly border collie, but come from working beardie stock that was imported (I don't remember the name of the person who did the importing). (Remember that as you--TEC--noted, there are old trial programs that list dogs as bearded border collies. Someone posted some old photos not too long ago of a group of dogs and their handlers, and there was clearly a bearded dog in the group. Don't remember the thread though.) The bearded gene does indeed give them a wiry-looking coat, though they are pretty soft to the touch. Because I've seen these dogs and seen them work I could see a wiry haired dog and not immediately think "not a border collie." I'm pretty sure James has run at the National Finals. Sirius is still a young dog and not yet running in open. Interestingly, Polly bred James (something like 15/16 border collie) to her smooth-coated Lily and still got one bearded pup. Let me check my photos--I know Polly sent me some for a thread here at some point. I haven't seen Sirius in a while, but if James weren't already registered, he certainly could have satisfied the ROM requirements, and I'm sure Sirius could too. Here is James as a 7-month-old pup: And here he is at the 2005 nursery finals in Sturgis: These aren't the best photos, but the coats on these dogs clearly are different from a typical rough coat. I was trying to find the original Lone thread posted by Christine R, but got shut out be searching too quickly. One of her first posts was about the surprise of the border collie puppy she bought who grew a beard. The thread is here. Christine's first post about her puppy developing a beard is post #34. The whole discussion was pretty interesting. BTW, Polly got James from Barb Starkey I believe (Barb wasn't the original importer; someone in Georgia--I believe--was). So these dogs are all related and all have Turnbull's Blue (ROMed by ISDS) in their pedigree somewhere. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I was under the impression that James actually belongs to Sarah Ruckelshaus. Maybe I'm remembering wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I'm almost 100% certain James came from Barb. It's possible that with Barb's health issues, she sold James, but I think he would have then been sold to Polly.... You could ask Sarah and find out. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Great pic's of the bearded Collies. Julie, thank you for taking the time to locate and post them. May have to have one (the dog) someday. Something about the look and style speaks to me But can they work? Sure looks like the dog in the photos is keen and doing the job...and beardies have run in the Finals. I am of the opinion that any dog, absolutely regardless of appearance, who can prove itself properly on sheep, should earn the title of Border Collie. It's all about performance. That's what defines the breed. For the sake of discussion only, to what extent in actual practice have, for instance, other breeds been recognized by reputable BC registries as Border Collies? Are there extreme examples? It is doubtful that many would go to the time and effort to have a dog resembling another breed registered as a Border Collie. OTOH, I'm all for it, and hope there exist such cases. It's a fun and informative discussion. A while ago I may have posted an early 20th century film-clip of herding trial competitors posing with several, what looked like, bearded and/or wirehaired Collies. I wasn't certain of the breed. Based on this thread, Border Collies of varying coats must have been more prevalent in those years. Diversity in a gene pool is a healthy thing. -- Kind regards, TEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Sue, After thinking about it, I think Sarah had Grae for a while, which is probably why you remember Sarah and a beardie. But Grae belonged to Barb Starkey too. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I was under the impression that James actually belongs to Sarah Ruckelshaus. Maybe I'm remembering wrong... Sue, as far as I know (admittedly little), James has not belonged to Sarah. I saw Polly run James in an Open trial at Long Shot this year on Jan. 1, so she still owned him then. (I got a photo of his son Sirius but that lens was backfocusing badly and I never bothered processing it). Anyway, here's James as of Jan. 1: Perhaps, Sue, you're thinking of this dog (a BC x Bearded collie, who I saw at Sarah's a year ago at a clinic)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 No, it was something someone said (Sarah, perhaps) that led me to believe that Polly did not actually own him but did keep and trial him. That's really neither here or there but I'm curious now since I can't remember with any real certainty! I've messaged Sarah so I can put myself straight on this... PS - I had seen James run a few times over the last several years. I seem to remember feeling that he was hesitant and not happy for a bit but then, the last couple of times I saw him, he seemed eager and focused and working well. He's a nice dog to be around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 OK, let us know, because now you've piqued my curiosity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Hello everyone, Sorry for the deviation from the original theme of this thread, but here's my input about the ABC registered beardie-coated Border Collie James that Polly Matzinger runs in USBCHA trials. Like Julie, I also have been told that James belongs to Barbara Starkey, along with several other beardie-coated Border Collies that Barbara has either produced or had in her kennel. Polly Matzinger has always been open about James' ownership, and according to Barbara, she (Barbara) was responsible for importing some these dogs. However, the text about James on the Border Collie Museum website says that he belongs to both Barbara Starkey and Sarah Ruckelshaus, so perhaps he (and possibly others) were co-owned by both Barbara and Sarah. Interestingly, James' registered name is Oldfield James, and Oldfield is Barbara Starkey's farm and kennel name. Edited to add: Here is the link to James pedigree online, and Barbara is shown as his owner and breeder (it also shows that he is female?). Also, the pedigree for Grae is online here. This shows that Grae was imported and was co-owned by Barbara and Sarah. Perhaps this is what led to the confusion. Just my shovelful, nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Please ignore anything I've said about James - I think I was mis-remembering or mis-heard or mis-understood or mis-somethinged in someone else's conversation! Note to Sue - Keep your fingers off the keyboard when you are on the internet and don't have a clue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Please take a look at this dog's nose, as it is definitely not the typical canine nose. I have only seen one other Border Collie with a nose like this. Regards, nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 But isn't that one of the litter of pups that was born with a defect (whose mother got into the sheep mineral or something while pregnant)? (Bad Sue, fingers off the keyboard, I said!) Really wildly digressing here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 But isn't that one of the litter of pups that was born with a defect (whose mother got into the sheep mineral or something while pregnant)? Sue, I have no idea....if this dog is of Barbara's or Sarah's breeding, that's a question for them. nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appyridr Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 By chance I happened to sit next to Barbara at Sturgis in 2005. She told me about her James that Polly was running for her. You can see his pedigree on Sarah's website: http://victory-farm.org/james.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Mutation or a throwback (like the bearded coat) maybe. I've seen it before, and it wasn't caused by exposure to chemicals as a fetus. http://www.canineinformationlibrary.com/split-nosed-and-double-nosed-dogs.html http://www.artistas-americanos.com/mascotas/catalburun.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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