Jump to content
BC Boards
BorderlineCrazy(:

Vote to change the BCSA'a breed standard!

Recommended Posts

Just how many here are trying to work to change the things they sit at their computers and complain about? How many have written letters? How many have gotten out there and talked to the AKC reps and others within the AKC? Rather most just sit here like a high school clique, demean people's dogs and complain and attack anyone having anything to do with AKC even if it is trying to change things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just wondering how you think writing letters and demanding change is going to affect the change we need. We don't want our wonderful dogs recognized in their clique I mean book, end of story...as long as there is a dime to be made it's not going to go our way.

I stand by my earlier statement. You can't fix stupid especially when there's money to be made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just how many here are trying to work to change the things they sit at their computers and complain about? How many have written letters? How many have gotten out there and talked to the AKC reps and others within the AKC? Rather most just sit here like a high school clique, demean people's dogs and complain and attack anyone having anything to do with AKC even if it is trying to change things.

Just how many letters do you think it would take (from people who are not associated with AKC or BCSA) to have an impact or make a change? Just how much do you think an AKC rep would listen to and pay attention to someone who is not associated with AKC or BCSA? Just how much do you think people within the AKC/BCSA would listen to people not associated with AKC/BCSA? Or do you suggest that we all join BCSA to make our views known?

 

I have been associated with AKC, as a member of an affiliate club. I have presented a well-researched, thoughtful program on working stockdogs for the club. I have made my feelings known concerning the conformation showing of Border Collies (and any other purposeful breed) as detrimental to the working purpose of the breed. And you know how much impact several years of that had? Not a bit.

 

Do I think AKC/BCSA is "trying to change things" with regards to putting working ability first and other considerations (conformation, sports, etc.) no place? Not in the least, and that's my opinion. The very few people that I know of with Border Collies in AKC "herding" are running ABCA/ISDS-registered dogs/bitches that are dual-registered with AKC, and they are looking like they are serving two masters - but I don't believe they are. I believe they are serving themselves in the "title game" and, in doing so, they are supporting the AKC which (I believe) gives first and foremost consideration to the show ring above all other considerations.

 

I do believe there are people in AKC who feel they are working from the inside out to effect a change but I think they are deluding themselves at best. Just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pam, I meant no disrespect to you personally. It isn't *you* personally, it's the appearance of slamming the AKC trials then putting a stamp of approval on them. It could be that the way I'm looking at it is simplistic. If you truly believe you're educating, then you're not a hypocrite. I do think it's pointless though. That's my personal feeling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think anything needs to change, and in fact, I encourage people all the time to do nothing with the AKC ... no registrations, no participation in their events, etc., and I seize every opportunity to turn someone in another direction. The AKC herding program seems to be suffering its own demise.

 

A year ago, Lisa Pruka and Claudia Frank wrote some interesting things in an issue of Borderlines about the herding program ... if you missed the thread, you can find it HERE.

 

Since Border Collies are the majority of the "herding" dogs involved with the AKC program, I was curious to see if there was also a recent decline in registrations, so I went on an emailing campaign with the BCSA and the AKC. Do you know that if you ask the AKC and/or the BCSA for an exact number of registrations for recent years, they will not release it? The reason?

 

After quite a lengthy back and forth with the AKC and the BCSA, I was told by the Secretary of the BCSA:

The BCSA acknowledges your recent request. The Board has considered your request and has agreed with AKC's standing to not published [sic] the information due to the negative use of said statistics in legislation and anti-AKC organizations. We feel compelled to comply with AKC's wishes at this time.

 

This speaks for itself.

 

Apparently, the entries are so far down, the AKC very recently created and implemented a sandbagging Started Master, Intermediate Master, and Advanced Master category for all stock on all courses in an effort to keep the interest of those who complete their started title, but don't have enough dog or enough talent to move to the next level in the next two months and the AKC was not raking in as much revenue as possible! So rather than raising the bar, and encouraging folks to breed better dogs, train better dogs, and compete to a higher standard, they dilute the program yet again. All in the name of revenue.

 

I think the best way to effect change in the AKC is to do nothing. Do not participate. Speak with your $$. That's the only thing the AKC hears.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are AKC registered smooth coated border collies. But, I doubt you'll ever see them in the conformation ring.

 

Back in the first 2 or 3 years after they started showing them in conformation, I saw a few smoothies, some with prick ears, split faces, etc. After that, it was all downhill. It only took about 3 years for hem to homogenize into the fluffy, dutch marked, black and white with glued ears.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty sure this is off-topic, but I figured I'd pip in anyway.

 

The other day, a good friend of mine who is heavily involved in showing her Australian Shepherds recommended me to a "well known" border collie breeder in the UKC rings. When she told me about the recommendation, I tried to, politely, tell her that I didn't agree with conformation showing on any level and while I was flattered that she thought me a great owner for another dog, I just didn't want anything to do with a "barbie" collie. She tried to assure me that the breeder worked her dogs on her farm daily and that they were all "working" collies. Finally, I relented and said I'd at least check out the site, if only to be a good friend. Sure enough, the website was 100% conformation slop and all the dogs had that awful puffy, pomeranian face (no offense to anyone here who loves poms, I just don't like the way their faces look like infantile foxes) and the outrageous coats that were so thick they looked ridiculous. I exited out immediately and just told my friend no, in a much firmer way.

 

She still believes that the dogs are working collies and are the best of both worlds "pretty but functional."

 

I think that's the way most people in any kennel club operate, at least on the lower, plebian level. They truly believe that what they're doing is for the best of the breed they love and are completely ignorant to the issues caused by an organization based in outdated eugenics and pageantry. They get caught up in the glitz and glamour and make that their whole life.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, since I wasn't heavily involved in the AKC (thank goodness), but so long as the majority of the club members are blinded by their own ignorance, I doubt things will change. It's not that they don't have the heart for it, or are bad people, they're just...ignorant. And ignorance can be one of the most dangerous state of beings out there.

 

Anyway, just my two cents...feel free to ignore since I'm sure only about...25% of it was coherent at all, lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

Over the years, I have met some who honestly believed they could change the AKC: “from inside”, “Through petitions”, “by contacting AKC reps”, “letter writing” , “becoming an AKC director” and so forth. To my knowledge, none of these people, including reformers who got onto the AKC Board have changed the AKC a jot.

 

Other folk fantasize about changing the AKC as an excuse for immersing themselves in easy, high reward programs. I know several one-time open handlers who make their livelihood from the AKC and enjoy higher status among dog fanciers than in the sheepdogging world.

 

Whether earnest or fantasy, both “work from inside” reformers badly mistake the way the AKC works. It is, and from its inception has been, the creature/ of the large east coast kennel clubs. At its first organizational meeting, “one owner, one vote” (the ABCA system) was debated but vetoed by The Westminster Kennel Club who wished no diminution of its power.

 

It is no accident that the AKC’s crown jewel is NOT “The AKC Championship Dog Show” but, rather, “The Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show”.

 

From its inception, Westminster was as much society org as dog club and these days, it is primarily society. I once asked a Westminster member how I could join. Startled, he replied, “Oh. You can’t!” Membership is by invitation only.

 

Another, friendlier member, joined because his college roommate was a member. A vet himself, he laughed, “They know nothing about dogs,” he told me. “They’re just in it for the parties.”

 

I dunno. He’s the only Westminster member who’d talk to me and the membership list isn’t published. Some years ago, I attended the “Show Dogs of the Year” dinner which must have cost the sponsors twice what it costs us to put on a national finals. AKC VP’s seemed pathetic, sitting alone at their table. The real power was with the wealthy dog show people and their friends.

 

Some AKC employees are pleasant enough, others assume the culture’s arrogance. Many are frightened. How would you like to explain to a job interviewer that for the last x years you’d been overseeing dog shows?

 

Since the Border Collie was taken by the AKC, their registrations are off by 70% , they’re running a deficit and their reputation and ability to frighten into silence is gone (They used to write publishers of magazines that dared print anything unflattering to demand retractions. Ordinary dog showers were too frightened to speak.)

 

Sheepdoggers, those who compete in non-AKC agility, those who use Border Collies for real work and pet owners who cherish the Border Collie for what it is form a parallel universe to the AKC/Westminster/Westchester nexus.

 

Ours is a democratic meritocracy. What matters is not one’s antecedents, wealth or prominence away from the dogs but rather what one has done with and for the Border Collie. In our society the laborer, Phd, rich man and rock star step to the post alike. When the sheep are spotted, the bullshit stops.

 

While I don’t know who will speak for dogs when the AKC finally implodes, their breeding practices have caused so much pain to dogs and the dogs' loving owners, I’ll be glad to see them go. Who needs an all-breed purebred dog organization anyway?

 

As for “reforming the AKC” – why bother? Don’t we have real work to do?

 

Donald McCaig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just how many here are trying to work to change the things they sit at their computers and complain about? How many have written letters? How many have gotten out there and talked to the AKC reps and others within the AKC? Rather most just sit here like a high school clique, demean people's dogs and complain and attack anyone having anything to do with AKC even if it is trying to change things.

 

I think trying to work from within is as likely to be as effective as boycotting the AKC - ie not at all.

 

However, I respect your decision to try and do something your way rather than just talk about it. Wasted effort is better than no effort in my book.

 

The internet gives people an inflated view of how important what they think and do actually is because there is so much opportunity to obtain validation from like minded strangers. It happens on all boards; espousing the board view gives a sense of belonging to a community and ganging up on anyone who has a different view is virtually inevitable.

 

However, the truth is that beyond that community bubble the majority of the inhabitants of the real world don't care - not about the working ability of dogs (or lack of it), or any other cause which may be dear to our hearts. They have lives to live and concerns more important to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Until livestock are brought into the ring at Westminster, does it really matter what changes are made to the AKC breed standard?

 

Perhaps as a prerequisite the dog/handler pair would have to compete in X number of herding events in the year prior to the beauty contest and have a cumulative score of X. I'm SURE the AKC could probably rig the scoring so that any dim witted Boxer could qualify.... :angry:

 

 

Just throwing stuff against the wall.

 

Perhaps the best we could hope for is health?..although this would NOT account for the trait that makes a BC a BC: working ability.

 

I still think it's a good thing to comment whenever comments are asked for. I got an e-mail today thanking me for my input :rolleyes: However, I don't regret the time and electrons I put into my comments.

This is a war of attrition. We need to wear the AKC down and deny them money, in any way we can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In our society the laborer, Phd, rich man and rock star step to the post alike. When the sheep are spotted, the bullshit stops.

Donald McCaig

 

I love this line, Donald. Excellent post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think I insulted you, nor did I insult the people who participate in AKC events. I did insult the AKC as an organization (several times I think) as I believe it serves no useful purpose other than to line the pockets of its executives.

 

I'm not sure that enabling individuals to continue supporting the AKC is "helping them understand". At best it's delivering a mixed message. At worst, it's encouraging a misguided notion that what they are doing (for the most part) is real stock work, and that putting herding titles on their dogs means that their dogs are good examples of working Border Collies and therefore worth breeding. If you don't believe that's the case, go look at the websites of breeders who have put herding titles on their dogs.

 

 

 

I disagree with this statement. Like other performance events within the AKC, the purpose of the AKC herding program is to generate revenue for the AKC, and to keep members within the AKC system by plying them with easily-obtained titles and awards.

 

If the AKC were truly concerned about the ability of the herding breeds to actually work livestock, they'd stop judging them based on an arbitrary physical standard in the breed ring completely and start judging them based on the results from meaningful stockdog trials. They don't. They won't. So, saying it is so can't make it so.

 

 

 

That's a cop out quite frankly. Without judges, set out and sheep, there's no trial. Without a trial, there's no AKC herding titles. I know lots of people who host AKC trials, rent sheep to AKC trials, judge AKC trials, set out for AKC trials. Many of them are good friends. We just agree to disagree on this. But, it's disingenuous to claim you aren't supporting the AKC when you are facilitating their ability to host herding events. The fact that you're getting paid for it rather than you paying them doesn't really enter into it. The end result is the same. The AKC prospers at the expense of the working Border Collie.

 

Pearse

 

 

Pearse, I was going to set this one out, but could not.

 

This is my question to you:

 

From where did the AKC Breeders get their foundation stock???????????

 

What about "Big Hats" who sell to "Sport Breeders" or "Sport Homes"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From where did the AKC Breeders get their foundation stock???????????

 

What difference does it make? A lot of them came from Australia, some of them came from here in the US, some of them came from the UK and even Europe,for all I know. But suppose the AKC breeders got every single one of them from farmers and shepherds and "Big Hats." Can you spell out why that has any relevance to whether the AKC is good or bad for border collies, or whether supporting the AKC and its events is good or bad for border collies?

 

What about "Big Hats" who sell to "Sport Breeders" or "Sport Homes"

 

What about them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The AKC Border Collie is an oxymoron.

 

For the life of me I can't see why it matters what standard they use to bestow the title of "Champion" on some of those oxymorons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think trying to work from within is as likely to be as effective as boycotting the AKC - ie not at all.

 

However, I respect your decision to try and do something your way rather than just talk about it. Wasted effort is better than no effort in my book.

 

The internet gives people an inflated view of how important what they think and do actually is because there is so much opportunity to obtain validation from like minded strangers. It happens on all boards; espousing the board view gives a sense of belonging to a community and ganging up on anyone who has a different view is virtually inevitable.

 

However, the truth is that beyond that community bubble the majority of the inhabitants of the real world don't care - not about the working ability of dogs (or lack of it), or any other cause which may be dear to our hearts. They have lives to live and concerns more important to them.

 

There is a vast deal of difference between "doing nothing" (denying funds to the AKC) and "working from within" (especially if it involves giving them money or taking money from them to enable their events.) To my mind one act cancels out the other. People who whinge about the clear-cutting of rainforests and then buy products from companies that do that clear-cutting are behaving in a way that is, from my POV, hypocritical.

 

There is more going on than ego stroking and a mutual admiration society on the Border Collie Boards and a number of other boards/blogs. I came to the Boards in complete ignorance of the co-opting of the Border Collie by the AKC, and of the absolute importance of breeding Border Collies for working ability. I didn't join to have my opinions validated. I joined because I read clear and cogent arguments why some of my long-held beliefs were in error. Reading and participating in discussions here help me understand the issues being discussed. Being a blabbermouth, sometimes I end up saying some dumb things and feeling a bit of a fool. But I do learn.

 

Discussions like this one have motivated me to download and burn copies of "Pedigreed Dogs Exposed" and give them to anyone who is willing to watch them. As a result, most of my friends say they will never buy an AKC/ conformation-bred puppy again. Is is possible to make changes. And the Border Collie Boards and blogs like Terrierman help. The individuals and families who have turned away from the AKC do have larger issues in their lives that the AKC, as do I. But it cannot be denied that no one needs a sickly, inbred and useless dog. Owners of such dogs suffer - financially and emotionally. Their children suffer. The dogs suffer. And that is important - even in the big picture.

 

I doubt if letter writing and anguished diatribe will sway the power-structure of the AKC to change. But cutting their legs from under them by denying them funds will help to bring them down. Donald is right. Their registration numbers are falling. This is their bread and butter. Take enough of it and they will starve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From where did the AKC Breeders get their foundation stock???????????

Ask yourself, how do you define Border Collie?

 

 

Is an object made out of glass shaped like a hammer, really a hammer? Could it be used to build a house? Do you define a hammer by its shape, the material it is made out of, by its color, or by being able to hammer nails?

 

Does it really matter where the AKC got their breeding stock if they continue to evaluate their Border Collies as pretty objects (nouns) as opposed to how we evaluate our Border Collies (verbs)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As yourself, how do you define Border Collie?

 

 

Is an object made out of glass shaped like a hammer, really a hammer? Could it be used to build a house? Do you define a hammer by its shape, the material it is made out of, by its color, or by being able to hammer nails?

 

Does it really matter where the AKC got their breeding stock if they continue to evaluate their Border Collies as pretty objects (nouns) as opposed to how we evaluate our Border Collies (verbs)?

 

Now that really "hits it on the head" :@) GREAT POST!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that really "hits it on the head" :@) GREAT POST!

I guess Mark really "nailed it"!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ask yourself, how do you define Border Collie?

 

 

Is an object made out of glass shaped like a hammer, really a hammer? Could it be used to build a house? Do you define a hammer by its shape, the material it is made out of, by its color, or by being able to hammer nails?

 

Does it really matter where the AKC got their breeding stock if they continue to evaluate their Border Collies as pretty objects (nouns) as opposed to how we evaluate our Border Collies (verbs)?

 

Agreed. The one part that kills me is that the AKC paints said glass hammer as the "real (New and Improved!) thing".

As long as the AKC calls their dumbed down, black and white fluff balls "Border Collies", real Border Collies lose. By calling them Border Collies, they misappropriate the history, likeness and character of the working Border Collie. It's false advertising, the kind that makes the imitated product cheaper.

 

The AKC is spoiling the Border Collie "brand".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The AKC is spoiling the Border Collie "brand".

 

Most farmers I know call them "dogs" or "it". We don't do fancy names that are longer than necessary round here.

 

Most agility/obedience folk I know call them "collies" - avoids misunderstandings between non registered working sheep dogs and ISDS or KC registered dogs. Doesn't matter which they are to most people in those circles as long as they can do the job.

 

The only people I know who tend to call any version "border" collies as a rule are show orientated people or members of the general public who don't know much about dogs.

 

And "Borders" are Border Terriers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most farmers I know call them "dogs" or "it". We don't do fancy names that are longer than necessary round here.

 

Most agility/obedience folk I know call them "collies" - avoids misunderstandings between non registered working sheep dogs and ISDS or KC registered dogs. Doesn't matter which they are to most people in those circles as long as they can do the job.

 

The only people I know who tend to call any version "border" collies as a rule are show orientated people or members of the general public who don't know much about dogs.

 

And "Borders" are Border Terriers.

I see you're from England. We may be a bit different here in the States. Thus the United States Border Collie Handlers Association and the United Stated Border Collie Club.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...