BorderlineCrazy(: Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 The AKC's Border Collie Society of America is holding a survey, and will be revising the breed standard if enough people want them to. The survey is here; http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CXWHFG8 And be sure to send in comments here; standard@bordercolliesociety.com The people I've talked to so far have sent in comments suggesting to focus on working ability over conformation. I don't know what the chances are that they'll actually do this, but if enough people speak up they may listen. Worth a shot, hmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Considering that: (1) I don't think that the Border Collie should be included within the ACK's pervue and (2) I do not believe in breed standards (although intellectually I understand the purpose of breed standards) I am not inclined to waste my time with this survey. It would be impossible to factor in working ability into an AKC breed standard since the AKC show system values only aesthetics. Sorry to be such a wet blanket, Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Moon Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Considering that: (1) I don't think that the Border Collie should be included within the ACK's pervue and (2) I do not believe in breed standards (although intellectually I understand the purpose of breed standards) I am not inclined to waste my time with this survey. It would be impossible to factor in working ability into an AKC breed standard since the AKC show system values only aesthetics. Sorry to be such a wet blanket, Jovi I believe they still need to hear it. Loud and clear. If we don't keep reminding them that it's NOT OK to dillute the breed and that Barbie Collies are NOT Border Collies they'll stay in their comfortable echo chamber and believe they're doing "what is best for the breed". I say we give them a good slap across the chops every chance we get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Seems to me you just can't fix stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedismom Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 This from the Border Collie Characteristics page of this board: While a group of one hundred Border Collies will probably look as if they belong to the same breed, they will not have a uniform appearance. Since a "good" dog can be judged only by its herding performance, there is no "breed standard" of appearance to which Border Collies should conform. In general, they are of medium size (25-55 pounds), with coats that may be smooth, medium, or rough. Colors are black, black with tan, and, less common, reddish-brown, all usually with white markings. Predominantly white Border Collies and merles, though unusual, also occasionally appear. The true Border Collie is known by how it works sheep and cattle, and by no other standard. I will email this to them just for kicks. However, since it goes against everything they're about, they just won't buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Why not let them pervert their version of the breed even further? Then push the ABCA to tighten up the dogs under it's registry? And EDUCATE the public as to the fact that AKC dogs are NOT bred for working and that their 'herding titles' only mean a barely sufficient amount of ability and trainability to get some stock around what is generally a small pen? AKC will never accept a working standard-that is one facet of the "Dog Wars". Several clubs tried and AKC kept optioning for the club that did not want any working within the breed standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 So, Pam, when you go judge the AKC herding trial this weekend in St. Louis and you award those 'herding titles,' what form of education will you be using? When you hand them the ribbon, will you say, "Your AKC dog in NOT bred for working and it barely has enough ability and trainability to get that dog broke stock around that small pen, but congratulations anyway" or will you hand them a flyer with their ribbon, or will you just erect a sign in the winner's area for when they take photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 I fell in love with a breed many years ago that could come in so many different packages. It is still one of the most endearing traits. Working ability is not endearing - it is thrilling and the essence of this breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Jodi I knew you would respond. YES, I am an AKC judge, never hid the fact. And IF you knew me, you would realize I say the same things in regards to the AKC trials and the AKC Border Collie to the AKC. Always have-in fact, longer than you have even had Border Collies. And Jodi Darling, if you understood (which apparently you do not) AKC is about more breeds than the Border Collie. There are people who truely care about their breeds, many who do not delude themselves that the AKC is NOT perfect and some who actually work within to try to change things in the AKC. There are people within the AKC who try to improve their breed (and most who don't but rather breed to the conformation standard only). Just like the people within the ABCA, who would breed to a mediocre dog of colour because they like that colour, or breed dogs with faults that could affect their health (and that of future generations). If you want to know the education i do within the AKC< come and find out, don't you have AKC registered dogs, and haven't you ran those dogs in AKC herding as well as other AKC sports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Why don't we all ask them to close the stud books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 You're right. Silly me. I'm just too stoopid to get it. Yes, I registered a dog years ago, and "competed" with him at AKC herding trials. I actually have experience with AKC herding and have seen first hand how inflated people's minds become over the titles that you award, how it encourages them to breed more dogs just like those who win, and how political the entire process is. And if I didn't have any direct experience with the AKC, I'm sure that would be the first thing you pointed out, huh? But, you're right, I don't understand. Are you completely excited that this weekend you might get to award someone their very first Herding Started Master title? In fact, you might be able to award the very first one! You could go down in the history books of the BCSA and the AKC!!! Exciting!!! "If you understood ..." and "come find out...." are weak, at best, Pam. Why not just answer what I asked? What form of education are you using to educate the public "as to the fact that AKC dogs are NOT bred for working and that their 'herding titles' only mean a barely sufficient amount of ability and trainability to get some stock around what is generally a small pen"? And how is it not hypocritical when you are handing out those very titles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 . And Jodi Darling, if you understood (which apparently you do not) AKC is about more breeds than the Border Collie. There are people who truely care about their breeds, many who do not delude themselves that the AKC is NOT perfect and some who actually work within to try to change things in the AKC. I'm sorry but this is the weakest form of rationalization ever. It's a straw man argument. The issue is not whether there are people within the AKC who care about their dogs or their breeds. The issue is whether or not what they are actually doing is in the best interests of the dogs and the breeds which, by any objective standards, it is not. The AKC destroys breeds. They've destroyed every single breed they have got their mitts on. The only possible exceptions are some of the toy breeds, created and bred to be nothing more than fashion accessories from the beginning. However, working, sporting, herding and other breeds who were created with a functional role in mind, have been turned into crippled fashion accessories by breeding to an exaggerated physical standard. The "working from within" argument is also a crock. The only way to bring an end to what the AKC does to dogs is to boycott everything to do with them. Deny them registration income, deny them income from breed ring shows, and deny them income from performance events. The AKC cannot survive without large infusions of cash because at the top end, they are an organization with high overhead. You may argue that you judge ACK trials for the money. You may argue that you agree with the AKC and don't think they are as bad as we make them out to be. It's your choice and it's not Ms Darling's (who seems to have an inordinate amount of time to spend on ferreting out the misdeeds of others online) place to call you out publicly on your choices. However, if you are going to rationalize it, you aren't going to get a sympathetic ear in this venue by saying that it's somehow some guerrilla campaign to weaken the AKC or lead them to the light. Just. Not. Going. To. Happen. Pearse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 I believe they still need to hear it. Loud and clear. If we don't keep reminding them that it's NOT OK to dillute the breed and that Barbie Collies are NOT Border Collies they'll stay in their comfortable echo chamber and believe they're doing "what is best for the breed". I say we give them a good slap across the chops every chance we get. That's exactly what I was thinking! Chances are low that they'll actually start encouraging breeding for working ability over conformation, but ya never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 By the way, has anyone on here ever seen a smooth coated AKC Border Collie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Not looking for a sympathetic ear Pearse. You do things your way and I do them mine. You can live by insulting others or helping them understand , it is a choice. As to answer your question since you, Jodi seem dense-and we have been over this time and again, I tell people that the program is NOT proof that a dog can work, yes people like the titles-you were proud of your titles you got weren't you? FTM, AHBA trials are little better than AKC and you are proud of those titles aren't you? The titles do mean that a dog can do some obedience around stock in small pens, nothing more, nothing less. If you , Jodi, cannot understand that I let my thoughts be public regarding the AKC and it's position on the Border Collie and it's herding program then you have never read things I've posted. What many seem to fail to see is that the AKC program was originally set up for other breeds to show if they had retained any ability. Insulting people is not a way to help them. I do let people know what I think of the program. Pearse I do not give them money for registration, nor do I participate in their events with my Border Collies. I do get paid to judge and sometimes to set out stock. If you don't like that, then that is your problem. But we do seem to agree on Ms Darling. As to the question of the stud book, I am NOT a member of BCSA, nor have I ever been, that question is best to ask someone in the BCSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 So, Pam, when you go judge the AKC herding trial this weekend in St. Louis and you award those 'herding titles,' what form of education will you be using? When you hand them the ribbon, will you say, "Your AKC dog in NOT bred for working and it barely has enough ability and trainability to get that dog broke stock around that small pen, but congratulations anyway" or will you hand them a flyer with their ribbon, or will you just erect a sign in the winner's area for when they take photos? As an outsider, I think I can be fairly objective. I think you're spot-on with this, Ms. Darling, regardless of the 'inordinate amount of time' you may have to pen your missive. Funny how the herd tends to want to sweep the hypocrisy under the rug until someone has the audacity to call it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Call it hyprocracy if you want. If you sit outside and only complain then you are doing nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 By the way, has anyone on here ever seen a smooth coated AKC Border Collie? Yes, I've seen smooth AKC border collies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yes ive seen smooth akc bordee collies also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 By the way, has anyone on here ever seen a smooth coated AKC Border Collie? There are AKC registered smooth coated border collies. But, I doubt you'll ever see them in the conformation ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 I sent the BCSA a long e-mail, basicly asking them to close there stud books...NEVER gonna happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Not looking for a sympathetic ear Pearse. You do things your way and I do them mine. You can live by insulting others or helping them understand , it is a choice. I don't think I insulted you, nor did I insult the people who participate in AKC events. I did insult the AKC as an organization (several times I think) as I believe it serves no useful purpose other than to line the pockets of its executives. I'm not sure that enabling individuals to continue supporting the AKC is "helping them understand". At best it's delivering a mixed message. At worst, it's encouraging a misguided notion that what they are doing (for the most part) is real stock work, and that putting herding titles on their dogs means that their dogs are good examples of working Border Collies and therefore worth breeding. If you don't believe that's the case, go look at the websites of breeders who have put herding titles on their dogs. What many seem to fail to see is that the AKC program was originally set up for other breeds to show if they had retained any ability. Insulting people is not a way to help them. I do let people know what I think of the program. I disagree with this statement. Like other performance events within the AKC, the purpose of the AKC herding program is to generate revenue for the AKC, and to keep members within the AKC system by plying them with easily-obtained titles and awards. If the AKC were truly concerned about the ability of the herding breeds to actually work livestock, they'd stop judging them based on an arbitrary physical standard in the breed ring completely and start judging them based on the results from meaningful stockdog trials. They don't. They won't. So, saying it is so can't make it so. Pearse I do not give them money for registration, nor do I participate in their events with my Border Collies. I do get paid to judge and sometimes to set out stock. If you don't like that, then that is your problem. That's a cop out quite frankly. Without judges, set out and sheep, there's no trial. Without a trial, there's no AKC herding titles. I know lots of people who host AKC trials, rent sheep to AKC trials, judge AKC trials, set out for AKC trials. Many of them are good friends. We just agree to disagree on this. But, it's disingenuous to claim you aren't supporting the AKC when you are facilitating their ability to host herding events. The fact that you're getting paid for it rather than you paying them doesn't really enter into it. The end result is the same. The AKC prospers at the expense of the working Border Collie. Pearse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 And to add insult to injury...EVERY memeber on the "board" that's determining whether to write the new standard and what it may be....are conformation breeders/handlers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 I usually stay out of these things, but I did want to say, "Right on, Pearse!" A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 AKC can kiss my keister. The end. P.S. They won't listen to us, anyway. We're talking about an organization that's fully O.K. with things like the double-merle (blind, probably deaf) rough collie sire who produced this year's BOB rough collie. They're not about to come to their senses over a survey. ~ G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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