Clicker training

[Jody's Mom]

Hi all,

 

I have a 5 yr old Border Collie (Jody) whom I have worked with in the past with basic obedience. She did very well (best in her class, of course), and is a very obedient dog. I am now in the process of getting a new puppy (Australian Shepherd), and I thought I would begin working more with Jody's training as a way of making sure I give her some extra attention when the new pup arrives.

 

With training her in the past, she was very eager to learn and succeeded quite well, but I found that most of the 'correction' methods (leash/collar jerks, etc) that were taught in obedience classes just seemed a little harsh with her submissive personality. She always seemed to pick things up better when I would informally work with her at home with strictly positive reinforcement. Lately, I have been reading up a bit on clicker training, and am considering trying it with her.

 

Do any of you have any experience with clicker training and how it works with Border Collies and their unique personalities? Jody is so smart and eager to learn that I think any method would work fine with her...but I would like to find the method that is the most 'fun' for her.

 

Thanks for any insight you can give.

 

Sandi - mom to:

Jody (5 yr BC)

Rowdy (6 week Aussie - get him in two weeks!)

[Dynamite Tess Again]

Hi,

Personally I don't like collar/leash jerking and with my little Pepsi I could never have used it anyway. You can tell just by looking into some of these dog's faces that they are disappointed themselves that they've got something wrong..if indeed they did get it wrong in the first place. Our body language and eye contact can be the difference between them getting an exercise right or wrong. I used a clicker with Pepsi when she wouldn't hold a retrieve item in her mouth. Within a two weeks not only was she holding the item, but bounding out and bringing it back. I personally think this little gadget, when used correctly, is excellent for the shier dog.

Regards, Val

 

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Val Clark

Hailsham, United Kingdom

[Jeanne Bell]

Hi Val, Your comment about Pepsi not holding a retrieve item in her mouth interests me. I have raised and trained three Border Collies. All, of course, were natural retrievers but not one of them would hold the item in their mouth. They would throw it down in front of me and back off waiting for the item to be tossed again. I find this behavior kind of annoying and tried to teach Fly to hold the item and retrieve properly. My thoughts were that by enforcing "rules" about retrieve I could control the annoyance factor better. She is good about all the rules including "that'll do" to stop but refuses to hold the item in her mouth. She became very upset when I tried to teach her to hold it. As this is the only time I ever saw her truly anxious and determined not to obey, I dropped it. Since she herds I really don't want her fetching anyway,but it's done now. ( For the record, I did not teach her to retrieve. I was trying to avoid that. I made the mistake of leaving her home with my babysitter one day and came home to a fetch-a-holic! Everyone except me was so-o-o impressed with how quickly she learned it!)

Anyway my question is, how did you use a clicker to reinforce the holding of the object?

 

Thanks, Jeanne Bell

[Dynamite Tess Again]

Okay Jeanne, I'll do my best to explain.

Here goes:

First, your dog must know what the clicker means, so just for a short while you click then give reward, click - reward [sorry fans of the no treat, but this works best with a treat. You can phase it out eventually] I put the item in front of Pepsi and every time she even looked at it I clicked and rewarded. Little eyes sparkling she kept chancing her luck coming back for a treat anyway and when she didn't get one you could almost see her thinking about what it was she had done to get one. So back she went to looking at the item...click-reward. After a while I stopped clicking when she looked at it. She looked back at me as if to say 'Okay, I'm looking at it, where's the treat' I held off, so in order to let me know for sure she was looking at it, she touched it with her nose...click - reward. Now, we've gone past looking and we're on to touching. Again, I get to a point where touching isn't enough. I want her to hold it, so again I hold off on the treats. Finally, the touch becomes a pick up..click-reward-go over the top with praise. Once the item was in her mouth and she knew that the routine was to pick up, I used the 'hold off with the treat' in order for her to keep the item in her mouth longer and longer. Yes, you need time and a lot of patience, but the results are worth it. Also, because a lot of treats are used I chopped them up into very small pieces: literally, just a taster. Because I do obedience with my dogs, training must be fun. Pepsi now gets so excited when it's time for a training session she almost squeals with excitement. Clickers aren't for everyone, but I do urge owners of shy dogs to at least give them a go. They are not expensive, so if it doesn't work it's not as if you've laid out a lot of money on it.

Hope I've explained this okay

Regards, Val

 

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Val Clark

Hailsham, United Kingdom

[susanmann]

Clicker training seems ideal for BCs- but keep in mind I'm a novice at both. I have 2 older dogs that I trained fairly well, including agility, but when I got my BC, the rescue group and my agility group were switching over to clicker. Brodie is now 14 months old, has been doing agility since he was 7 or 8 months old and now has fabulous contacts at speed, good enthusiasm, and does great sequences (8-10 obstacles in a row)- all trained via clicker. I've also done most, though not all, of his other training via clicker. How much of the difference in results (compared to my other dogs) is the fact he is a BC and how much the clicker training? I have NO IDEA!

There are some great books out there to get started, also some good web sites (I can't remember names but type "Karen Pryor" or dogs and clicker into a search and see what you find). For general concept and to get your thinking adjusted from traditional methods (I had to read it several times) you should definitely read Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor- but don't expect any step by step instructions. Also by KP with instructions is a small booklet A Dog and a Dolphin 2.0.

A clicker is just a way to tell the dog exactly what you liked about the behaviour. The click gets associated with a positive reward- but at least with my BC (and a few I know from class) you need to change the reward more frequently than with most dogs. Most people use treats (small, soft, REALLY GOOD)- i use treats less often, and several different toys, usually to tug, and change them up frequently- he never knows what he's going to get next.

I taught Brodie to do a roll over in about 10 minutes of clicker training, just by clicking successively closer behaviour (down, down & on one hip, down & sprawled, down & sprawled & flip over as I moved). The light just went on that that was the behaviour- we then worked on speed, and now he practically does it in the air.

One key that some people forget it to jackpot when the dog first really "gets it" or does something really well- then quit.

[Jeanne Bell]

Thanks Val!

 

That makes sense to me and I may give it a try. I never understood how a clicker program worked.

 

 

Jeanne Bell

[diane allen]

I have only dabbled in clicker training. One BC, and also my mixed-breed especially, took to it readily, as described. I've only tried it once with my new 4 yr. old BC - she BOLTED for a safe spot. Seems she didn't like the noise at all! I've only recently begun trying VERY gradually to get her used to the idea that "click" means "treat," but for this not-very-food-motivated girl, I think it'll be an uphill battle.

 

As mentioned, the "long patient" trial is what's needed. The advantage of the clicker is that it's IMMEDIATE - even faster than saying "YEAH!" or heave forbid, "GOOD DOG!"

The dog knows instantly that the behavior immediately prior to the sound is what was good. Not "touch the item," and look up, and then be told "Yeah!" In this case, dog might think that looking up was the behavior wanted.

 

Best of luck. I think most BCs would respond favorably to clicker training -it's incredible when it works well!

 

diane

[Guest Kat]

Hi-

 

First off, I want to say good for you that you want to get away from the old jerk em method.

 

You can try the following website. www.clickertrain.com

 

Also, some good books to read are: "Don't Shoot the Dog", "A Dog & A Dolphin 2.0", "Lads Before The Wind", all by Karen Pryor. You can find these books and some others at www.dogwise.com , which is a dog and cat book catalog place. I have found a lot of very good and informative books through these guys. You should also keep an eye out for seminars that come around your area.

 

Good luck and enjoy this way of training.

 

Kathy

[Bill Fosher]

Oh well,

 

I've tried to hold my tongue, but I just can't.

 

Here's a real-world example of clicker training versus respect training.

 

Today we were on our walk. My wife and I had three dogs: two Border collies (one of which is an 11 month old who has been with us 13 days) and my old fat Australian shepherd.

 

Three other people with four dogs entered the field, perhaps 200 or 300 yards away. None of us had ever seen the others before, so I decided the better part of wisdom was to simply walk the other way. My dogs were attracted to the other dogs, but I called them back and had them walk away with us.

 

One of the other dogs evaded his masters' attempts to leash him and came charging across the field to my dogs. His body language was happy and playful, so I wasn't too worried.

 

He didn't do anything the owner said until he was close enough to hear the clicker. No harm done in this situation, but suppose my dogs had been on the other side of a highway.

 

And why was it that my dogs, who are not given treats for obeying, were so much more obedient than the one who was? My theory is that once you reduce obedience to a transaction -- do this and you get a treat -- a smart dog will find situations where it wants to disobey you more than it wants your treat.

 

If obedience is part of the foundation of your relationship, when you say, "here," the dog will be at your feet, not because of what you offer him as a reward. He'll be there because that is what you expect from him, and he wants to do what you expect.

 

Have I ever yanked on my dogs' leashes? You bet. Have I ever hurt them by doing so? No. I've surprised them. I've gotten their attention. I've broken some of their bad habits before they got started.

 

Usually a leash jerk isn't needed with a Border collie. A change in the tone of your voice should do it. Applying psychological pressure when the dog is wrong, and releasing it when it's right goes a long, long ways. I even know some trainers who are opposed to praise, beyond a simple pat on the flank or a "good girl."

 

Bear in mind that there's nothing cruel or painful about a correctly timed and executed correction. In fact, I'd argue that it's a lot less cruel and painful than having obedience break down under stress or excitement because the for either forgets or rejects the transaction.

 

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 01-09-2000).]

[susanmann]

All right- I decided I had to reply to your posting, Bill- partly 'cause I know I'll keep it friendly and I really like the tone these boards keep. So, to address a few items:

One example of a well-trained "classically" trained dog vs a poorly trained "clicker" dog is not a true test. I can think of plenty of both well trained and poorly trained dogs from both methods.

Keep in mind that different people apply clicker methodology differently. I'm with you completely in making sure my dogs respect me. Clickers work great for teaching complex behaviours (weave poles, contact zones, etc). They also work great for teaching basic behaviours like come and stay- but once the dog knows the behaviour, he (all my dogs are males!) is expected to comply with or without a positive reinforcer- and will get a leash pop or Annnhh if not. I watched one basic obedience class that uses clicker training- with all dogs, many breeds, they did off leash recalls with the teacher petting and giving the dog treats while the handler called the dog from the other side of the class- ALL the dogs came running to the handler when called. When I took my dog through class years ago (pre-clicker) my dog was one of only a handful of dogs that had a good recall.

I was initially very leery of clicker training as well, and it took me a while to realize that it is not merely "reducing obedience to a transaction"- it is giving the dog the opportunity to learn by trial and error, with the clicker as a tool to say "YES- that, at that exact moment, was the behaviour I want! What a great dog!"

Please take this in the spirit it is meant- as a friendly exchange of differing opinions, with hopefully some light shed on this topic. There are certainly people out there who don't train their dogs well due to poor understanding of the species as well as themselves- and it doesn't matter what kind of training they use! On the whole, I have seen fewer poorly trained clicker dogs than I have non-clicker trained dogs, though this may just be a bias in that people who clicker train, are for the most part actively engaged in training, vs so many dog owners who completely neglect this- and that in itself is a good thing. Sorry if I rambled!

[Dynamite Tess Again]

Bill,

I don't know if I'm reading your post right, but it seems that the people you encountered on your walk were using the clicker to get their dog's attention. That is not what the clicker is about as Susan has explained. As I understand it there is also a point when a dog is heading towards another one when a wrong word from the owner can have the opposite effect from what they want. If a dog stops half way to sniff the ground and the owner praises because it has stopped running, they are in fact praising it for checking out the route to the other dog. In this type of situation I would only praise my girls once they were back by my side. I appreciate all you say, but personally, before I expect my dogs to do something because they respect me I would like to be certain myself that I am right. Regards, Val

 

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Val Clark

Hailsham, United Kingdom

[Bill Fosher]

Susan and Val,

 

I used that incident as an illustration, and because that incident prompted me to break my silence. I've seen similar problems time and again. Maybe there's a particularly poor clicker training program in this area.

 

Maybe I don't notice it when it's done right -- I'd be perfectly willing to concede that.

 

I will also concede -- in a heartbeat -- that clicker training is a million times better than no training, and that's often the way the options are presented if people take their dogs to a clicker obedience instructor.

 

I've been working with a neighbor of mine to "repair" a dog who soured on clicker training in about two months.

 

The recall was the worst part of this dog's training. With a clicker, she learned to come within about six feet of her owner or trainer and see whether there was really a treat. If there was, she would sit on your feet -- not at them. If there wasn't, she would dance around, just out of reach.

 

This represented a real improvement -- before clicker training, the dog would not respond to a recall at all.

 

After two weeks of long lead training, she would come to me and stand still for me to put my hands on her. Her owners didn't keep up the discipline, and just as Val points out, she got rewarded for turning toward them, not for coming all the way, and she's back to her old tricks.

 

Perhaps I'm too romantic, but I want my dogs to obey me because they want to, not because I have a device to reward (click and treat) or punish (shock collar) them. Someday I won't have that device, and if it's the foundation of our relationship, we're sunk.

 

Val, your points about wanting to make sure you're right first is well taken. It sounds like you build that foundation of trust before you start working on the more complex behaviors that Susan mentions, and perhaps that's a great way to use clickers.

 

I've never trained a dog for competitive obedience or agility, so I'm probably talking out of turn. But what I see out in the fields and on the streets are people who are using clickers as a way of avoiding learning about their dogs. They're just looking for a quick fix, and clickers seem to offer that.

 

 

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

[susanmann]

Bill- One thing that I think a lot of clicker people forget is that a clicker is just a teaching tool- not something you have to have glued to your fingers every moment you're with your dog (I know plenty of people like that!) Actually, you SHOULDN'T notice when dogs are trained properly, because they'll only have the clicker with them when they are doing a training session, or in the early stages of learning something. And it shouldn't matter whether you have a clicker or treats with you, unless the behaviour is very new. I agree with you 100%- I want my dogs coming to me because they want to come to me and respect me, and the same goes for downing, staying, etc.

One other thing that I think clicker training does well is teach people to look for what the dog is doing right and gets rid of the constant correction cycle that new dog owners often get into. Good discussion, and I think its good to bring out the issues behind it, rather than just a discussion of some techniques!

[Bill Fosher]

Here's another thought: perhaps the clicker would be best used to train the things I call "unnatural" behaviors, such as agility skills.

 

It's natural for dogs to come, sit, lie down, and stay -- they learn that with their littermates to some extent. And it's natural for Border collies to work stock. Those are the things I generally work with.

 

In stockdog training, we don't need a clicker to tell the dog he's right; we simply let him keep working. And old softies like me will praise him.

 

For behaviors that must be learned from the ground up -- like walking over an A-frame when it would be a million times easier to go around it -- I can see where it might be helpful.

 

 

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

[Jeanne Bell]

Bill, That's where I was coming from on this topic. It sounds like a positive way to teach something she doesn't seem to understand naturally.

 

Jeanne Bell