juliepoudrier Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 First rule of thumb when visiting people: befriend the guard dog if at all possible. It impresses non-dog people, but you can see the dogs who are willing to be friends but unsure of your intentions. Interesting thought. Most guard dogs I know won't easily befriend a stranger or even someone they see around the place on a casual basis. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 First rule of thumb when visiting people: befriend the guard dog if at all possible. It impresses non-dog people, but you can see the dogs who are willing to be friends but unsure of your intentions. if you are talking the LGD (Livestock Guardian dog)...I make a point of telling people NOT to be friendly to my LGD.... you leave them alone. They have a job to do and it isn't a people greeter. Get them to like people too much is a good way for them to leave their sheep in search of people and a ticket to ......?? I wouldn't want to befriend a person guard dog (if you mean like a protection dog) unless I got permission first. Just my thoughts..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Not to beat a dead horse as it were. But I have found that when working in the open with no fences, the dogs learn if they make errors they will have to fix them. So Fleecey learned something that day. 'You Chase and the sheep run like HELL!' But, If you are quiet you can control them. And Fleecey knew that the sheep could make us work pretty hard by running for miles! And so did I! This was I think more important than my lie down. It was the light bulb going on on how we can control the sheep. Now If only I could do that at the TRIALS!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 First rule of thumb when visiting people: befriend the guard dog if at all possible. It impresses non-dog people, but you can see the dogs who are willing to be friends but unsure of your intentions. I always just left dogs alone unless I needed/had permission to interact with them... I actually find it a bit irritating when people try to make friends with my dogs right away. I'd prefer that my dogs ignore random people after announcing their arrival and that's hard to do when the random person is trying to make friends with my dog. My late Missy dog hated people who tried to make friends with her. I'd tell people to just ignore her. Those that did, she eventually warmed up to. Those that ignored me got the cujo barking started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 I always just left dogs alone unless I needed/had permission to interact with them... I actually find it a bit irritating when people try to make friends with my dogs right away. I'd prefer that my dogs ignore random people after announcing their arrival and that's hard to do when the random person is trying to make friends with my dog. My late Missy dog hated people who tried to make friends with her. I'd tell people to just ignore her. Those that did, she eventually warmed up to. Those that ignored me got the cujo barking started. Not LGDs (nearly unknown here), and not running up to strange dogs and making a fuss or petting or anything. Just when you have a half-mile of yard to walk up to visit people, and the dog is out in the yard to keep strangers away and doesn't know you, I like to let them sniff the back of the hand and say a calm word or two to them, and make sure the dog sees you before you're in the yard. I see people trying to get in without the dog noticing, or charging up and ignoring the dog, or trying to outrun the dog to the door, and they make it so far before the dog goes nuts. I don't generally interact with other people's dogs, but in those kind of cases it can be necessary. Most of the time these dogs just sniff, wag their tails, and ignore you or follow you up. It's just basically looking non-threatening, and not making a fuss over anything or doing anything surprising, and being friendly to the dog if the dog initiates it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Aside from livestock guardian or personal protection dogs, I guess it depends on the situation, person and dog. I think it's important to ask first (and not be offended if the person declines), but everyone who has ever pet Hannah has asked, except one annoying kid. Even if a person might irritate me, I try to avoid the bit*h factor (though I can call it up real quick if I need a harsh aversive)*. There are some I politely decline because I sense my dog isn't enthused about the deal. I can read my dog. Where I live there are a lot of people who drive into town to walk their dogs. I'm not sure why others do it, but I do it to expose my dog to different situations. I consider people petting her part of her socialization, but I wouldn't allow anyone to foist it on her. Different 'strokes' (or that one-size-fits-all thing). *ETA: Re: the harsh aversive, I'm not always bright enough to work around it ETA2: Forgot to mention service or SAR dogs. Generally, one should not even ask in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Dogs "in uniform" are definitely off-limits, although I have seen people with service dogs encouraging people to pet and fuss over their dogs. I was very surprised, but later it occurred to me that perhaps the dogs in question were either still in training or had developed shyness or some other problem that was being worked on by having good social experiences with strangers. Generally speaking, I tend to leave other people's dogs alone, unless invited to interact. I don't much like strangers fussing with my dog, and she is rarely interested in being fussed with. I think it's pretty naive to imagine that a dog welcomes the attention of everyone it meets. Of course there are dogs that do, but I don't much cotton to that type of critter, or that type of person either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 I totally love dogs that are friendly to everyone they meet, unless that translates into jumping, humping or drooling. People are another matter (though I also prefer they don't jump, hump or drool). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Ok I also left out show/trial/performance dogs. Nothing is more annoying than having someone approach you in that tense moment before you're up to show/trial/perform/whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Ok I also left out show/trial/performance dogs. Nothing is more annoying than having someone approach you in that tense moment before you're up to show/trial/perform/whatever. Also, it is not uncommon, at least around here, for parents to bring children to performance events who have had bad experiences with dogs in the past. The intention is for the child to be able to be around well behaved dogs to have a better experience. That is risky. Not all performance dogs are good with kids. Those handlers aren't there to socialize their dogs with frightened children. Add trial stress, a stimulated atmosphere, and a frightened child into the same equation, and it could go horribly wrong for all concerned. One thing I will say is that every time I have run into this, the parents have asked if the child can approach my dog, and they would explain the situation. I was always happy to let Maddie interact with such children because she would flop down on her side and let the child approach on his or her own terms. But people are constantly walking through the crate areas with dogs on their way to run, or returning from a run, and I've never thought that to be the worlds best idea. And with Speedy, I always had to say "no", and I didn't always get a very gracious response to that. I just think it's a bad idea on so many levels. I could see taking such a child to watch the event, but going into the crate area and asking to have the child meet random dogs does not seem to me the most prudent thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Double post! My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 I just think it's a bad idea on so many levels. I could see taking such a child to watch the event, but going into the crate area and asking to have the child meet random dogs does not seem to me the most prudent thing to do. Wow, that could be downright dangerous. You get dogs in stressful situations, factor in some breed ring exhibits that are so loopy their handlers have to "string them up" to keep from getting DQ'ed, and that is NOT a good situation for kids (particulary unruly ones). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 <quote> For instance, I've been showing by bc for a few months now...the few points we are getting off are due to slightly crooked fronts and finishes. It was not from my dogs lack of trying, rather my fault for being afraid to communicate to him that what he was doing wasn't correct. I was so afraid it would hurt his enthusiasm to put in any kind of negative correction!!! He would come into front, he would sit a little off...I would tell him to "fix it"...he would and I would reward!!! He would do this over and over...thinking he was doing it right by fixing it on the second or third try, because I hadn't giving him the info that the way he was doing it wasn't right. We needed a strait front on the first shot!! I wasn't even giving him a chance to get it right!!! So...i took the plunge, came up with an idea...when he comes in and sits crooked..I give him a verbal correction "ah ah"...to let him know that wasn't quite right..I give him a stand command, have him back up a few steps and try again, if he is crooked..I repeat. When he gets it right I give him HUGE verbal praise and we start all over. If he gets the front right the first shot..THEN he gets a HUGE party of treats, praise and some times gets to TUG!!! Now that he is starting to understand what I want...we are progressing GREATLY ...so this is just an example..</quote> See myself as a trainer would teach this different and not need a none postive method to achieve this. i would just restart the behavior if it wasn`t what i wanted, from the beginning. What he was being told was you to perform to tricks a `front` and a `fix it` in order to get a treat. The dog shouldnt need a vebal correction as he is doing exactlt what he was taught. The fault usualy lies with the trainer. Simply dont fuss, and restart and dont treat what you dont want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelliePup Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 RE Body language Apparently analogies, metaphors, and similes are lost on some people. I never said dogs see us as dogs, I said they interpret our movements as if we were handicapped dogs, meaning they translate our communication efforts into a language they can understand. Body language and voice tone and pitch are critical elements in dog training, and understanding and utilizing some of the ways dogs communicate can give us a richer relationship with our dogs, not as master and dog, but as pack members (through the dog's eyes) with the human as the firm but fair leader. Patricia McConnell has an excellent example in The Other End of the Leash of an owner not using her body to really "talk" to her dog, and it resulted in the dog ignoring the owner because the dog "just heard static." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 RE Body language Apparently analogies, metaphors, and similes are lost on some people. I know exactly what you mean. KelliePup, do you remember the exact context in which I made the comments about canine "body language" that got you and I into this exchange? Without the context in which I made those comments, the meaning of what I actually said is completely lost. It is clear to me that this has occurred. . . . they translate our communication efforts into a language they can understand. Body language and voice tone and pitch are critical elements in dog training, and understanding and utilizing some of the ways dogs communicate can give us a richer relationship with our dogs, not as master and dog, Nowhere did I ever say, nor indicate, that this is not the case. If you feel that I did, you misunderstood exactly what I was seeking to convey. Patricia McConnell has an excellent example in The Other End of the Leash of an owner not using her body to really "talk" to her dog, and it resulted in the dog ignoring the owner because the dog "just heard static." Indeed that happens, and nothing that I said was intended to convey or imply the contrary. We apparently do not disagree on the importance of coming to understand and utilize some of the ways that dogs communicate. What we most likely disagree on is the exact way that we, as humans, would translate that into a training context between dog and handler. Going back into context, this should be quite clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelliePup Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Without the context in which I made those comments, the meaning of what I actually said is completely lost. It is clear to me that this has occurred. Then you can understand my frustration at being misquoted and having things taken out of context to further an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 KP, You know the quote about wrestling with pigs? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelliePup Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 KP, You know the quote about wrestling with pigs? J. Get a good boar dog to take it down? But seriously, point taken and I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Are we still talking B.O.B aggression? Oh wait. That's another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Then you can understand my frustration at being misquoted and having things taken out of context to further an argument. It would be just as frustrating as having an entire argument based on something one never actually said or intended to begin with. Based, exactly as you say, on something taken completely out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Are we still talking B.O.B aggression? Oh wait. That's another thread. If you define straightforward discussion, honest expression of different point of view, and a desire to have things understood accurately and in context as aggression, then sure. :D Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 If you define straightforward discussion, honest expression of different point of view, and a desire to have things understood accurately and in context as aggression, then sure. :D Why not? lol, Root Beer, I was just trying to interject a little levity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Dear Doggers, Dogs read and trust body language while we humans are blinded by weird theoreticals. No dog would have voted for Richard Nixon. Donald McCaig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 It would be just as frustrating as having an entire argument based on something one never actually said or intended to begin with. Based, exactly as you say, on something taken completely out of context. Oh yes, I had that very frustration in this very thread. Only then the explanation given was that the comments to me were actually addressing "the larger context" and so it was acceptable to base it on things I hadn't said or intended. Amazing how that argument gets reversed depending on who's on the receiving end. Off with KP to find a boar dog .... J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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