BorderlineCrazy(: Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Just a quick question. What are your opinions on a Border Collie Rescue that promotes the AKC and Border Collie Society of America, with no mention of the ABCA and other working BC pages? Does it really matter, so long as they are reputable and their dogs are well taken care of? Opinions? Adri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Maybe they really don't know about ABCA or USBCHA and whatnot? Rescues are just regular folks, and maybe these people, like a lot of average urban Joes and Janes, just don't know about the schism between AKC and the working BC world. They may still wander in the innocent ignorance that AKC = quality. My first thought, anyhow. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, until and unless they show themselves unwilling to be informed. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 It doesn't really matter to me. Rescue is in the business of helping as many dogs as they can, and sure, it would be nice if they promoted (with links or whatnot, I'm assuming that's what you mean) ABCA, but I don't really see a big deal one way or the other. I know that BCSA gives rescue grants to BC rescues across the country, not sure about AKC, but maybe that's why they have a link up? Just guessing. Anyway, rescue is hard, gutwrenching work (as I'm sure you're well aware), and I'm just thankful people are doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 I can understand an all-breed rescue doing that, but it's hard for me to understand how someone could be so committed to border collies as to put in the time, effort, and grueling emotional investment in setting up and operating a border collie rescue without knowing enough about border collies to know that there is an important issue here, and that they are aligning themselves with one side (IMO, the wrong side) over the other. In any case, there are a greater number of deserving border collie rescues than I have money to give, so I would just choose ones that are at least neutral (which most of them seem to be) when I'm donating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 A lot of AKC breed clubs, breeders and kennel clubs support rescue. Its considered the responsible thing to do in that culture, and despite what many of us think about the issue its the prevailing influence on many dog lovers. So if this rescue gets support and information from a AKC club, it stands to reason that particular Rescue would have links to AKC clubs. I'm not sure I would describe them as "aligning" themselves with a "side" because they probably have no interest in getting involved in that war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 So if this rescue gets support and information from a AKC club, it stands to reason that particular Rescue would have links to AKC clubs. I'm not sure I would describe them as "aligning" themselves with a "side" because they probably have no interest in getting involved in that war. Well, the OP does not tell us that this rescue gets support and information from an AKC club, and from what's posted we have no basis to assume that. The OP also doesn't tell us in what way the rescue promotes the AKC and the BCSA. We are assuming -- perhaps erroneously -- that the promotion involves links on its website to those organizations and no other. I don't see how listing/linking ABCA as a border collie registry (it being the principal border collie registry in the US and AFAIK the largest border collie registry in the world), or linking (for example) to USBCC's online pamphlet "Living with Border Collies" or to this site along with AKC or BCSA sites/publications, constitutes "getting involved in [a] war." Quite the opposite, I would say. If the rescue chooses not to do so because of a relationship it has with an AKC club, then I think it is aligning itself with that side. If the rescue chooses not to do so because it doesn't know of any registries or resources other than AKC, then I think that is surprising ignorance on the part of a rescue dedicated to border collies. But with the minimal information derived from the OP, I guess we are really just making assumptions in the abstract. All I can say is that if I encountered a rescue that I felt "promotes the AKC and Border Collie Society of America, with no mention of the ABCA and other working BC pages," I would direct my rescue contributions elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Well, the OP does not tell us that this rescue gets support and information from an AKC club, and from what's posted we have no basis to assume that. The OP also doesn't tell us in what way the rescue promotes the AKC and the BCSA. We are assuming -- perhaps erroneously -- that the promotion involves links on its website to those organizations and no other. My apologies, I should have been more specific! Yes, it was only links under their "Border Collie Links" page. It's not like the rescue has AKC/AKC-related links covering the home page. If they did, I would not go any further than their home page, my mouse would be all over that X button in a second. And no, as far as I'm aware, they don't get support from an AKC club. I can understand an all-breed rescue doing that, but it's hard for me to understand how someone could be so committed to border collies as to put in the time, effort, and grueling emotional investment in setting up and operating a border collie rescue without knowing enough about border collies to know that there is an important issue here, and that they are aligning themselves with one side (IMO, the wrong side) over the other. In any case, there are a greater number of deserving border collie rescues than I have money to give, so I would just choose ones that are at least neutral (which most of them seem to be) when I'm donating. That's exactly why I posted this. I was only in the Border Collie world for a couple weeks when I learned about how awful the AKC is. I just have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that someone so involved in the wonderful world of BC's can still support the AKC, even if it's just with a few links. I think most rescues probably choose to stay neutral so as to not defer potential adopters. You don't want ABCA people seeing AKC links everywhere, and vice versa...Although it seems like us ABC people have a bit of a stronger opinion about this than the AKC people do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I don't see how listing/linking ABCA as a border collie registry (it being the principal border collie registry in the US and AFAIK the largest border collie registry in the world), or linking (for example) to USBCC's online pamphlet "Living with Border Collies" or to this site along with AKC or BCSA sites/publications, constitutes "getting involved in [a] war." I guess I wasn't clear. If the Rescue in question is run by people who have a relationship with AKC Border Collie people they are likely to have a link for that group. Maybe no one involved with the "other side" has been involved with them, volunteered for them or donated money? Who knows, its all conjecture. I certainly would not criticize a rescue for having a BCSA link or use that as a determination of whether to offer them support, financial or otherwise, unless all else was equal. I would donate my time and money to the organization that needs it the most. Perhaps someone should reach out to the group from the ABCA community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I certainly would not criticize a rescue for having a BCSA link or use that as a determination of whether to offer them support, financial or otherwise, unless all else was equal. I would donate my time and money to the organization that needs it the most. Ditto. Considering what rescues do, I find it very hard personally, to look down on a rescue just because it has links to AKC on it's site. I'm not one to say that rescues do no wrong, but if it's reputable and helping border collies in need, I wouldn't choose NOT to support them based on a link. And I do believe that even people involved in border collies, don't get the whole AKC vs ABCA issue. I agree with the suggestion that perhaps the ABCA could reach out to BC rescues, if something like this determines their support or not. Just curious now, how involved in supporting rescue *is* the ABCA? I see nothing mentioned on their website, but maybe someone on the inside knows more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 The rescue I foster for has what looks like a Aussie, b/w, trotting with it's head up on it's logo. PRECISELY because I know someone out there will look at it and go think "oh no, Barbie Collie" it bothered me. The founder is not a working dog person. Based on several conversations I got the idea that she had little to no idea about the war. But damn if she does not work her ass off rescuing without any predjedous. So yes, in the normal world there are people that don't get into all aspects. Maybe because they simply don't have time as they are busy with rescue and life. So if the rescue is a legit group that does a good job vetting and saving I could not care less. Has it come to a point where every word is picked over to find a fault rather than to support the good content? (of course there have been instances in the past where rescues where posing as such and not legit - in those cases a link could be a tipp off to dishonest activity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient_Dog Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Well said Gisela... I have never understood why so many on this board are suspicious of rescue groups in general. Please don’t judge Border Collie rescue groups by their political affiliation, for the most part, they have none! Rescue groups by their very nature are apolitical. The primary purpose of Border Collie rescue groups is to salvage dogs from their imminent death, rehabilitate their heath and disposition, and re-home them. Rescues don’t evaluate volunteers, fosters, or adopters based on ABCA or AKC associations. Most Border Collie rescuers don’t even know about “The Dog Wars”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 A breed rescue is more about preserving individual dogs than the breed as a whole. Because of this they're not going to be as passionate about the specifics as we are - it just isn't part of the equation that they're working with. So I wouldn't expect them to pick a side and go with it the way we do - they've got a lot of other issues to worry about/deal besides the politics of registries. OTOH I'm not quite sure why a breed rescue site (of any breed) would link to one of the larger contributers to the issue of purebred dogs in rescue. (puppy mills anyone? the AKC does protect/work with those lovely corporation...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I have never understood why so many on this board are suspicious of rescue groups in general. Please don’t judge Border Collie rescue groups by their political affiliation, for the most part, they have none! Rescue groups by their very nature are apolitical. The primary purpose of Border Collie rescue groups is to salvage dogs from their imminent death, rehabilitate their heath and disposition, and re-home them. Rescues don’t evaluate volunteers, fosters, or adopters based on ABCA or AKC associations. Most Border Collie rescuers don’t even know about “The Dog Wars”. This quote exemplifies several others above that bewilder me. I am the only person who has responded saying that I would direct donations to more neutral rescue groups rather than to one that "promotes the AKC and Border Collie Society of America, with no mention of the ABCA and other working BC pages." This does not reflect any suspicion of rescue groups in general on my part -- I donate to border collie rescues every year. It does not reflect any criticism of apolitical-ness in rescue groups -- that is what I expect in a rescue group. I agree that the primary purpose of border collie rescue groups is to salvage dogs from their imminent death, rehabilitate their health and disposition, and re-home them. I don't agree that most border collie rescuers don't know about the Dog Wars -- I suspect they do, and you suspect they don't, but you have no more knowledge than I do about which is true. Finally, my response is my own personal one -- I am not speaking in any way for the ABCA, the USBCC, or anyone else on these Boards. Opinions were requested, and I gave my own. The ABCA has given money to support rescue endeavors on occasion, when requested. How it compares in amount and frequency with AKC or BCSA I have no idea. I have noticed that any discussion of rescue that comes up on these Boards tends to provoke a surprising amount of indignation and resentment, but that seems to be true whatever point of view is being expressed. It's odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 The rescue my own dogs came through, and who I occasionally foster for does not get involved with the politics, the boss man has had some issues with both sides of the situation and just does not get involved in voicing an opinion. There are limited links on the site. I have talked to him, and explained why I choose not to play AKC agility, in my opinion he stays out of the fray as his goal is to find good homes for Border Collies, not alienate a potential home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Mara kind of touched on something I meant to say before, but in my rush didn't. I do find it odd that a rescue would post links to any organization that promotes/encourages breeding. That obviously applies to both AKC and ABCA. I don't know what the specific links in question are. But, I can think of a couple of reasons why they might post AKC links, like a breed description (however misguided *that* might be) or activities people can do with their rescued border collies. So, if it's something like that, yeah, I get it, but it's still an organization that promotes breeding. That said, it still doesn't change my stance, which I stated earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I have noticed that any discussion of rescue that comes up on these Boards tends to provoke a surprising amount of irritation and resentment, but that seems to be true whatever point of view is being expressed. It's odd. Yeah, like that doesn't happen with any other discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I have noticed that any discussion of rescue that comes up on these Boards tends to provoke a surprising amount of indignation and resentment, but that seems to be true whatever point of view is being expressed. It's odd. [Emphasis added] Yeah, like that doesn't happen with any other discussions. There are some discussions where it doesn't surprise me at all that indignation and resentment ensue. Often I think the reaction is entirely to be expected, on both sides. But it does surprise me how quickly and predictably it develops in so many rescue topics, where all of us presumably support the ultimate goal. I do think it's odd. Perhaps a lot of people are overly quick to take offense at rescue being dissed, as they (mis)perceive it, and a lot of people are overly quick to take offense at being dissed by rescue, as they (mis)perceive it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient_Dog Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Eileen, Since you chose to use my post as an example, I will respond. I am a Border Collie rescuer. The point I was trying to make was (and this was my statement): “Please don’t judge Border Collie rescue groups by their political affiliation, for the most part, they have none!” I’m not sure how that could be interpreted as indignant or resentful. If it is because I prefaced that sentence with the word “suspicious”, then I apologize, perhaps I could have used a less inflammatory word. However, you yourself used the term “suspect” when questioning whether Border Collie rescuers know about the Dog Wars. I just want you to know that I am neither indignant nor resentful and I do have a great deal of respect for the belief (to quote the ABCA) “that breeding for conformation standards rather than working ability is detrimental to the health and working ability of the Border Collie”. I discovered this website because I chose to become better educated about the breed. I understand the concerns of the people on this board and I, myself, have those same concerns. My good friend and long time veterinarian, Dr. Lionel Garcia, told me in 1995, when the AKC recognized the Border Collie, it was the worst thing that could happen to the breed. I believe that now more than ever. In my experience, most Border Collie rescuers have little knowledge of the working dog world. They are people who selected this breed of dog (like most people do) based on looks, size, athleticism, intelligence, etc. These people are not concerned about AKC, ABCA or USBCC politics. When they scan the pages on Petfinder or walk the isles of their local shelter, they see dogs in need, a life to be saved. I am sure that there are some people involved in Border Collie rescue who are AKC members because they do Agility or Flyball. I don’t know anybody in rescue who does Conformation but that doesn’t mean there are none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Eileen, Since you chose to use my post as an example, I will respond. I am a Border Collie rescuer. The point I was trying to make was (and this was my statement): “Please don’t judge Border Collie rescue groups by their political affiliation, for the most part, they have none!” I’m not sure how that could be interpreted as indignant or resentful. Well, obviously that sentence is not at all indignant or resentful. It was your earlier sentence, "I have never understood why so many on this board are suspicious of rescue groups in general" that prompted my reflection that "I have noticed that any discussion of rescue that comes up on these Boards tends to provoke a surprising amount of indignation and resentment, but that seems to be true whatever point of view is being expressed. It's odd." I don't know exactly what you meant by "suspicious," but you seemed to be saying that negativity is expressed toward rescue by "so many on this board," and my point was that I've noticed negativity too in discussions about rescue, and that the negativity seems to go in both directions, in contexts where I find it very surprising. If it is because I prefaced that sentence with the word “suspicious”, then I apologize, perhaps I could have used a less inflammatory word. However, you yourself used the term “suspect” when questioning whether Border Collie rescuers know about the Dog Wars. Well, for heaven's sake, when I said that I "suspected" most rescuers know about the Dog Wars,I wasn't accusing them of something nefarious or underhanded. I'm not "suspicious" that they know about the Dog Wars. I think it's to their credit that they know about the Dog Wars. Anyone involved with border collies should know about the Dog Wars. And when I said you "suspected" they didn't, I wasn't implying that you thought it "suspicious" that they didn't. Obviously, you don't. If I had thought the word "suspect" was open to this kind of misinterpretation,I would have phrased it as "I think they do, and you think they don't, but you have no more knowledge than I do about which is true." I did not interpret your post as indignant or resentful. I cited it as an example of what seemed to me to be a misreading of what I wrote. I can totally understand why rescues would be (or at least strive to appear) apolitical, neutral, even-handed, etc. I didn't understand the OP to be asking about a rescue that presented as apolitical, neutral and even-handed, and consequently my response was not about a rescue that presented as apolitical, neutral, and even-handed. I suppose we are all shaped by our own experiences. None of the border collie rescuers I know are unaware of the Dog Wars. Some may have little knowledge of working dogs, but they have enough interest and experience with the breed to have learned this much about it. Among those who are involved enough with the breed to single border collies out for rescuing, IME there may be many who don't care, but few who don't know. I see that your experience is apparently different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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