Spay/Neuter in Agility dogs

[The Good Shepherd]

With the recent discussion about Agility /Stockwork in mind I found this posted on a local diehard agilty board, makes me wonder if the agility people are thinking on using this to get full registration on puppies?

 

http://www.caninesports.com/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

[Rave]

Most of the agility people I know are more concerned with their individual dog's health, not ABCA registration. Granted I don't speak for the agility masses or the few extreme sport breeders out there, but that's my take on the general consensus.

[The Good Shepherd]

You would be (nor maybe not) surprised to what length some of the serious agility people go to down here

[terrecar]

And then there's this rebuttal of a different article that was written by one of the authors of the above masters thesis summary, on the subject of early spay/neuter.

[KelliePup]

Interesting study, but, IMO, flawed. There are too many unknown variables which the researcher does not appear to have accounted for, including, but not limited to: diet, exercise (both mental and physical), training techniques (if any), owner experience, living conditions, etc.

 

It warrants a closer look, don't get me wrong, but I found it very peculiar that there were no outlying statistical data anywhere in the study, granted that's not impossible. I would say the parameters were far too broad with too many unknowns to reach any definite conclusion.

[terrecar]

Interesting study, but, IMO, flawed.

 

 

You're not the only one who thinks so.

 

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf

[Rave]

The rebuttal article was not for this study. Not that I'm a fan of CZ's anyway, but let's not muddle the facts here.

 

Regardless, the current common practice among sports people is to wait to spay/neuter until growth plates are closed and the dog is physically mature. The sports breeders I know allow for this in their contracts, if they are requiring a spay/neuter.

 

Delayed neutering is not anything new. If any breeders aren't aware of this, then that is their problem for not fully discussing this with their potential puppy buyers.

[juliepoudrier]

I also wonder at a study that uses the owners' subjective accounts of whether their dogs were slower to learn, etc., after neutering. Of the two littermates I have the snarky, slow to learn one is the intact female. The sweet, loves everybody open trial dog and right hand dog on the farm (at least when he isn't injured) is the one I neutered (at 2 though). So with my n = 2 I'd come to the opposite conclusion on the behavioral aspects of neutering.

 

J.

[terrecar]

The rebuttal article was not for this study. Not that I'm a fan of CZ's anyway, but let's not muddle the facts here.

 

 

I thought I made clear in my first post that the rebuttal was for a different study. However, what I did not mention is both articles shared some of the same facts.

 

The article posted is not "the study". It is a masters thesis summary that cites the study. More importantly, since both articles share some of the same "facts", it appears that the only one muddling them is Dr. Zink, if the rebuttal is to be believed.

[AgileBC's]

FWIW I spayed 2 of my female schnauzer at 1 year of age (they are agility dogs). My mom has a litter mate to one of my schnauzers and she was spayed at 5-6 months. My girls are 13" tall and around 14 lbs. My mom's dog is a pony! She probably weighs around 20 lbs and is a good 2-3 inches taller than my girls. Both my border collies are rescues, so they were spayed and neutered before I got them, one at 6 months and one at 2.5 years old, so I can't compare them to anything. But my schnauzers were enough to convince me to wait. My oldest schnauzer was spayed at 6 months and she's had some back issues and temperment issues, but hey, she's a terrier! She was also on the high end of the height scale, but had shrunk a little bit due to age.

 

It's too early to tell healthwise if this has made any difference, but in size wise I believe it did.

[Black Watch Debatable]

http://www.bordercol...ndpost&p=347419

[alligande]

There is a solution to not breeding, and still keep your dog intact: vesectomony. When I was making a decision about when to neuter I read a lot of opinions, as I am not a scientist I have to rely on the conclusions. I began to realize that the choice of spay/neuter has largely become a cultural choice.

 

From what I read in certain parts of Europe working dogs (SAR, police etc) were being given vasectomies to make sure the drive remained. This is the route we have chosen to go, my own dog at 2 is very sweet, immature and does not seem to have a clue what sex is. If there were behavioral reasons then I would neuter. In the many conversations I have had regarding this, I have come to realize that at an agility trial there are many intact dogs (FYI in the States you can not run a bitch in heat, you can in contentinal Europe) who interact well.

 

My own vet thought there was absolutely no reason to do any surgery, she breeds standard poodles but as he is a rescue there is the moral obligation to neuter to prevent breeding, a philosophy I am fine with.

 

Bottom line:

If the point of neutering is to prevent breeding, and the reason to remain intact is structure and drive then both of these goals can be achieved with a vasectomy.

[MrSnappy]

FWIW I spayed 2 of my female schnauzer at 1 year of age (they are agility dogs). My mom has a litter mate to one of my schnauzers and she was spayed at 5-6 months. My girls are 13" tall and around 14 lbs. My mom's dog is a pony! She probably weighs around 20 lbs and is a good 2-3 inches taller than my girls. <snip>

It's too early to tell healthwise if this has made any difference, but in size wise I believe it did.

 

I have mentioned this before, but Dexter's litter were all done at 8 weeks except for one sister who was done at 7 months, and Dexter himself, who is being neutered next month at the age of 2.5 years. Dexter is taller than almost all his brothers (except Hoot), and his sister who was done at 7 months is roughly the same height as her sisters. There is no discernable difference between the littermates as a result of early or late neutering.

 

Tweed was done at about 3-4 months and he's a shortypants. If across the board early neutering makes for tall dogs, he would have been practically invisible if I'd left it until later, apparently.

 

Kristi's Wick had 4 pups, back in the day before I did pediatric neuters (those pups just turned 10). The 3 females grew up to be average sized dogs. The male was/is simply ENORMOUS.

 

Of the dozen or so litters I have neutered at 8 weeks, the range of sizes goes from outrageously tall to completely normal height. With a couple of those litters also I have let close friends who adopted one leave them intact for as long as one year, and there is no significant difference between littermates and the ones who were done early. In at least one case, the later neuter is taller than all his brothers. Clearly this isn't a huge representative sample, but it's at least first hand.

 

RDM

[terrecar]

My own personal ethic regarding spay/neuter—and in the absence of mandatory spay/neuter laws, it really is a personal choice—is that I will always have any companion animal spayed or neutered. Having said that (and having read the data), I would probably wait until the dog is at least six months, and preferably a year old, although my anecdotal experience has not borne out the health fears.

 

Neutering has significantly decreased the number of dogs in shelters. That, for me, is a good enough reason to support it. That does not mean I ignore the risks. Although, reading the literature, it appears to me that the benefits vs. the risks pretty much cancel each other out.

 

Having said (all) that, the staunch libertarian in me seriously blanches at the idea of mandatory spay/neuter. Not only that, there has not been any credible evidence that would suggest it is the answer to the problem of companion animal overpopulation.

 

I think the ASPCA takes a reasonable stand on mandatory spay/neuter. They do not support it and outline the reasons why they don't. My experience with ASPCA, the Humane Society of the United States, and the American Humane Association is that they are way more balanced than PETA. But one only has to be reminded of some of the histrionics of Peta members' "campaigns" to find that fairly evident.

 

Here is a link to a position paper from the ASPCA on MSN: http://www.aspca.org...euter-laws.aspx

 

 

ETA: I know this thread isn't about MSN, but I think I've pretty much established my propensity for tangents.

[workindogs]

I occasionaly breed and don't routinely spay/neuter my dogs, but will do so if I think its necessary or the dog is not breeding quality.

I neutered my 3 yr Open dog (very talented and very well pointed in Open and easily qualified for the Open Finals as a 3 yr old) because he was constantly sniffing for bitches, wandering, distracted while working, lacked confidence and insecure in my pack. BTW at 3 yrs and intact, he'd grown to a rather huge size, long legged, long bodied and 58 lb skinny lean. I delayed neutering because I thought he might lose drive (he was already somewhat low intensity). I know that many working dog people worry about loss of drive as a result of neutering and have known dogs to be left intact who have absolutely no breeding value (i.e. CHD, mediocre workers, etc) simply due to concerns about working drive.

After neutering my dog, I found his drive and intensity actually increased, his confidence improved a lot and he quit wandering and sniffing for bitches (yeah!). He was a very good dog intact, but he is a much better dog (and better working dog) neutered.

[Ooky]

I must admit I get frustrated when I look into this topic on the internet.

It seems IMO too important a subject to trust to master's theses, which are very often useful as a STARTING point for data and analysis, but typically limited in scope, often fall prey to biases and subtle logical fallacies because these students are beginners in their field, and are really kind of "baby steps" into science. OF course I don't know who is going to pay to do a large scale randomized clinical trial covering multiple sizes of dogs using only objective endpoints as measures (NOT owner reported subjective measurements), that goes all the way to geriatric age on the trial cohort, NOR do I know how you would find enough owners willing to leave the decision on whether to neuter or not and at what age based on the randomized trial, so I suppose I should stop whining.

 

I do think BOTH the health benefits and risks must be *relatively* minor in most individuals, because that reality would produce the often contradictory research you see on it when dealing with small sample sizes, different endpoints, correlative studies, and individual breeds with their own health issues as confounders. And while anecdote is not the plural of data, I'm sure we all know of many very healthy dogs neutered before their growth plates closed.

 

Not to mention that this is such a polarizing issue to people who really really care about their dogs, I think there is a lot of rhetoric on it that is not science-based in the least, even among those who should not fall into that trap due to being "experts" (CZ, I'm looking at you!). And as terrecar pointed out, there are always those touting reasons to do this on a large scale for general welfare of dog populations, which does not necessarily say much about appropropriate and healthy choices for your own individual dog.

 

Or maybe not. I think I am a pretty on the ball dog owner (for a pet person), but I would be very nervous to have an intact pet - I never have and don't know how much difference it would make in your life. But is SEEMS nervewracking. I know that when I go to sheep dog clinics and lessons where I personally most often run into intact dogs, and Odin is [politely] meeting other dogs, I get a lot of sort of panicked sounding "Is he neutered??" And when I say yes there is a visible relaxation. I know of one respected handler that has asked people multiple times in my presence "Is that bitch spayed? Because if she ties with my dog you're going to owe me a stud fee." And these are all (for the most part anyway) very well behaved dogs behaving in mannerly ways. So out in the general public? Or me having to be the owner asking o thers what the neuter status of their dog is so I can be that much more vigilant...

 

I know we are discussing sports here, but I willingly did a pediatric neuter on Odin thinking at the time that is what a good pet owner should do. He ended up with unilateral OCD, which after much guilt and had wringing on my part, both I and his vet team do NOT think was due to early neuter at all. But I have thought a lot about when I will alter my next dog (because I certainly WILL at some point, just don't know when). While Odin may not be any taller at all, he certainly has a different aspect to his whole head/neck/mane/shoulder area than intact dogs I know or have seen (including his father) - like there's something that looks a little teenagery in build on him even today.

[vaporflowers]

I would argue that the secondary sex characteristics of male dogs certainly get more "set" with later neutering. I've seen it repeated many times within the guide dog population at the school I work for. Intact males have larger heads, more muscle tone, larger "equipment", and in certain breeds (when we used Aussies, for example) more coat. Males neutered at 6 months or earlier had smaller heads and were less "thick" than their brothers who remained intact. Males neutered later would often lose some of the bulkiness to their muscle, and sometimes the excess coat would die down as well, but they did have a different appearance than their earlier-neutered brothers. The larger head is the most obvious at first glance, and there are multiple clues that can help in identifying an intact dog (BESIDES testicles I mean).

 

Taller dogs when neutered earlier...? I've never seen that in my 3 years working with a large sample of guide dogs, although I've never measured them officially to find out. Narrower when neutered earlier...? That I've noticed, although how much is testosterone-influenced muscle versus actual structure, I'm not sure.

 

It's enough of a difference that our on-staff vet now prefers not to neuter until at least 10 months of age. (That goes for females too; he's convinced that the benefit of hormones is real)

 

My own dog that I left intact until 2.5 definitely had a ton of mane, muscle tone, a wide head, and a larger package than any of my early neutered males ever did. He's lost some of the mane and maybe some of the muscle bulk too. He's kept everything else.

 

For me, just the fact that there is such a difference in appearance (in general) between early-neutered dogs and intact dogs, versus the smaller difference between later-neutered dogs and intact dogs, shows that hormones are having SOME effect on growth (at least in the growth of the head, muscles, and coat). Even without the studies, that's enough to make me want to wait and allow my dog to develop fully.

[terrecar]

He's kept everything else.

 

 

 

LOL!

 

 

For me, just the fact that there is such a difference in appearance (in general) between early-neutered dogs and intact dogs, versus the smaller difference between later-neutered dogs and intact dogs, shows that hormones are having SOME effect on growth (at least in the growth of the head, muscles, and coat). Even without the studies, that's enough to make me want to wait and allow my dog to develop fully.

 

I think that is reasonable.

[Liz P]

My experience has been that dogs neutered prior to puberty are more happy go lucky (puppy like) and less mentally mature. Dogs who are neutered after puberty seem to have all the benefits of being fully mature adults without those distracting hormones. For me it's a personal preference to have the adult brain in a working dog. If I had a pet, I might actually prefer the perpetual puppy state that early neutering causes.

[SS Cressa]

Ok I didn't read the whole article. But one thing I thought was odd unless I read it wrong. It seem to suggest that altering your pets increased aggression, and stress. I always understood it the other way... did I misunderstand what I read. I really just skimmed it and looked at their graphs.

[rushdoggie]

and sometimes the excess coat would die down as well

 

...

 

My own dog that I left intact until 2.5 definitely had a ton of mane,

 

 

It funny you say that, because nearly every dog I have ever neutered developed a wooly sheddy coat after the surgery. Ross was 6 when I got him and his coat changed dramatically after I neutered him. So did my male Papillon who was neutered when I got him at age 2 and turned into a Hair Bear.

[vaporflowers]

It funny you say that, because nearly every dog I have ever neutered developed a wooly sheddy coat after the surgery. Ross was 6 when I got him and his coat changed dramatically after I neutered him. So did my male Papillon who was neutered when I got him at age 2 and turned into a Hair Bear.

 

Hmm, I don't know if I'd want a "wooly" coat replacement hahaha. (If what you mean by "wooly" are those soft, fluffy, tangle-y hairs)

 

But I do miss my boy's mane!

 

Intact:

100_0391 by VaporFlowers, on Flickr

 

Neutered:

IMAG0210 by VaporFlowers, on Flickr

 

He's been neutered for 2 years, and it doesn't appear to fluctuate much seasonally.

[Maralynn]

My own anecdotal evidence - Missy was spayed at 6.5 y/o, Kipp was neutered at 2 y/o Kenzi was spayed at 5 m/o.

 

Missy was serious, Kipp is serious (and temperament/drive didn't change at all after s/n) Kenzi is becoming more serious but at 3 y/o still has a goofy puppy streak. Maybe she'll eventually mature out of it and I have no real grounds to base in on her earlier spay, but with that evidence and the ease of keeping an intact dog for me I would definitely choose to keep a dog intact until after puberty.

 

As far as SAR dogs go, if your dog has sufficient drive then a s/n shouldn't affect it's overall working ability.

 

The only thing that bugs me about early s/n is the idea that touted that it is the "responsible thing to do". No the responsible thing is to keep your dog contained/under control and not to produce puppies without a really good reason. If you chose to use surgery to help you with this, fine. But there is nothing irresponsible about keeping your dog intact if you can handle an intact dog (which the majority of pet owners are not prepared/able to do hence the routine early s/n...)

[terrecar]

The only thing that bugs me about early s/n is the idea that touted that it is the "responsible thing to do". No the responsible thing is to keep your dog contained/under control and not to produce puppies without a really good reason. If you chose to use surgery to help you with this, fine. But there is nothing irresponsible about keeping your dog intact if you can handle an intact dog (which the majority of pet owners are not prepared/able to do hence the routine early s/n...)

 

This is really very well said.

 

I didn't have a problem keeping intact dogs when I was showing. But then, I could always send the boy back home.

 

I never kept intact males of my own, just bitches.

 

Re: The coat change with a spay or neuter, I've noticed LH Dachshunds tend to get the fuzzies

[Smalahundur]

Well, all fine and dandy Maralynn, but I can´t count the puppies around here produced unwillingly by owners that thought they had it "all under control"...

The majority of those got pts.