Two Cultures

[Smalahundur]

I am not (very) sentimental, and do not adhere to the "Every dog Must Live" philosophy.

Culling a useless dog is acceptable in my eyes.

If one of my horse can´t be ridden, if a ewe won´t produce anymore I will put them down. Now mind you, I have dogs had live out to ripe old age and die of old age. But if I am training a bc and it turns out it is useless, then I would consider putting it down one of the possible options. Of course rehoming would be preferable, but not always possible.

There is no way a breeder has a moral duty to take back and rehome dogs that have for whatever reason not worked out.

[Grizel]

Usually, I take well bred washouts and try to find an activity we'll enjoy together, whether it's herding, rally, obedience or agility. This conversation has made me rethink this approach, which is neither cheap, nor easy nor terribly likely to result in smashing success. I've been lucky so far; the people I've worked with have been supportive and invested in their dogs, no matter what their age.

 

If I do this again, I'll screen where the dog originally came from a little more carefully. If the original breeder isn't too interested, I think I will pass. There is such a thing as being a chump, and I know for a fact that there are at least some breeders who do care about what they have put in the world. And, of course, the world is full of washed out sheepdogs.

 

I'm very glad Donald brought this up. One of the first things I learned buying a stock dog is the concept of "buyer beware." You owe it to yourself to be educated about the dog and the environment it comes from.

[Eileen Stein]

If I were ever puppy buyer, there would be an appeal to dealing with a breeder who didn't mind what happened next. It would certainly provide a lot of autonomy, especially if I were buying a puppy for a specific activity that I was determined to succeed in.

 

Who should have autonomy with respect to your own puppy, if not you? Subject, of course, to whatever contractual limitations you have agreed to in the purchase contract (if any).

 

What's most appealing to me is to buy from a breeder whose philosophy and approach are similar to my own.

 

Usually, I take well bred washouts and try to find an activity we'll enjoy together, whether it's herding, rally, obedience or agility. This conversation has made me rethink this approach, which is neither cheap, nor easy nor terribly likely to result in smashing success. I've been lucky so far; the people I've worked with have been supportive and invested in their dogs, no matter what their age.

 

If I do this again, I'll screen where the dog originally came from a little more carefully. If the original breeder isn't too interested, I think I will pass. There is such a thing as being a chump, and I know for a fact that there are at least some breeders who do care about what they have put in the world.

 

What an odd reaction to this conversation. You would pass on doing something for the dog, unless its original breeder took it back? If the original breeder took it back, it wouldn't need you, would it? If its original breeder wouldn't take it back, it might need you. Why would taking such a dog and finding an activity you enjoy together make you a chump?

 

And, of course, the world is full of washed out sheepdogs.

 

It is?

 

I'm very glad Donald brought this up. One of the first things I learned buying a stock dog is the concept of "buyer beware." You owe it to yourself to be educated about the dog and the environment it comes from.

 

That is good advice no matter what kind of dog you're buying, or what you're buying it for.

[geonni banner]

While it isn't popular in today's pet culture, there were a number of times when I was doing rescue that I bailed a Collie out of the pound and euthanized it. It was always a dog with a poor prognosis for placement. If the dog had a lot of medical problems, was feeble with age or a behavioral nightmare, I would put it down. This was usually after a veterinary consultation, and a few days of peace and quiet in my home, where the animal was shown kindness and given all the time I could spare. Perhaps that was not necessary, but it seemed to me, preferable to spending its last days in the racket and isolation of a chain-link run in the pound - or worse, adopted by a family or individual that would bankrupt themselves trying to fix the dog and come to resent it, ignore it, and finally send it back to the pound. If the dog was pregnant and not close to term, but otherwise a good prospect, I would abort the pups, even if they were known to be purebred.

 

I got a lot of flack for this - I live in California, after all - but my contention was this. Yes, the dog might be salvageable, might be treatable, might be rehabilitated, but at what cost? How many weeks, months, years or dollars would it take? What are the chances that the adopting person would tire of the constant drain on their resources of time and/or money? I had limited resources, and the bright, well-adjusted dog in the next run at the shelter was a better risk for the average pet-owner. So I put down a couple dozen dogs that might have been "fixable." It was always sad, but I stand by my choices.

[Grizel]

While it isn't popular in today's pet culture, there were a number of times when I was doing rescue that I bailed a Collie out of the pound and euthanized it. It was always a dog with a poor prognosis for placement. If the dog had a lot of medical problems, was feeble with age or a behavioral nightmare, I would put it down. This was usually after a veterinary consultation, and a few days of peace and quiet in my home, where the animal was shown kindness and given all the time I could spare. Perhaps that was not necessary, but it seemed to me, preferable to spending its last days in the racket and isolation of a chain-link run in the pound - or worse, adopted by a family or individual that would bankrupt themselves trying to fix the dog and come to resent it, ignore it, and finally send it back to the pound. If the dog was pregnant and not close to term, but otherwise a good prospect, I would abort the pups, even if they were known to be purebred.

 

All this is 100% justifiable. And, of course, you were not their breeder, so that makes it even more commendable.

[Grizel]

I've never had any problem whatsoever finding a washout. The issue is always picking which one from a multitude of choices. Since it's definitely a buyer's market (because even a washout costs a little money), I'll go with a breeder that seems interested in helping me and the other dogs he's bred, and steer clear of someone who has a history of not supporting their own dogs.

 

Not all potential sheepdogs are going to make it, so it's my way of supporting the breed. That's pretty much the major reward of this practice. Hopefully, it will make moving along a dog for a caring breeder a little easier; if the breeder doesn't care, than it's a wasted effort. I could have gotten the same kind of dog for even less from rescue, or the pound or Craig's List or wherever. Lots of other people do that instead.

 

Now, in another universe, if I were a very ambitious puppy buyer, I could see having a different set of priorities. With a breeder who didn't want to be involved, there would be a multitude of possibilities.

So there are market forces for both sides.

 

That's why I'm glad that Donald explained all this. I'll start noting what kinds of return practices various breeders have.

[juliepoudrier]

The downside to the whole return policy is that it severely limits the numbers of dogs a really good breeder might produce. I know of one breeder from whom I would gladly take anything she produced. But she breeds pretty rarely because one criterion she has is that she has to have the space, money, time, etc., to be able to take back everything she's ever produced. Granted, she's a great breeder and it's unlikely she'd get very many pups back from owners, but having that policy means that it's very difficult to get a pup from her (because there are so few), and that's a shame, too, when you consider that she's producing the types of dogs that are likely to improve the working gene pool.

 

J.

[Grizel]

When you consider that she's producing the types of dogs that are likely to improve the working gene pool.

 

She sounds like the kind of person I'd consider getting a "washout" dog from. In an ideal world, people like her could supply the performance buyers when things don't work out or if there are a few extra puppies, and free some of her space up to do some extra breeding.

[Eileen Stein]

I've never had any problem whatsoever finding a washout. The issue is always picking which one from a multitude of choices. Since it's definitely a buyer's market (because even a washout costs a little money), I'll go with a breeder that seems interested in helping me and the other dogs he's bred, and steer clear of someone who has a history of not supporting their own dogs.

 

If the prospects are pretty much interchangeable from your point of view, that sounds like a good approach. But it seems to me you're conflating two different things here. Certainly the overwhelming majority of good breeders are interested in "helping [buyers] and the other dogs [they've] bred." I can think of very, very few that aren't. That's a very different thing from committing themselves to take back every dog they've ever bred, regardless of circumstances.

 

Don't forget that willingness to take back is very common among puppy millers. It gives them the chance to re-cycle the merchandise if the dog is resalable, and if it's not, it's not real troublesome or traumatic for them to put it down. So I don't consider return practices a particularly good criterion to measure the worth of a breeder.

[Eileen Stein]

She sounds like the kind of person I'd consider getting a "washout" dog from. In an ideal world, people like her could supply the performance buyers when things don't work out or if there are a few extra puppies, and free some of her space up to do some extra breeding.

 

How would that free her up to do extra breeding? Are you saying she doesn't need to keep herself able and willing to take back the pups that go to performance buyers?

[Grizel]

If the prospects are pretty much interchangeable from your point of view, that sounds like a good approach.

 

Yes, I've always looked at whoever came along. I have that luxury since I don't have any specific needs, and I can be fairly flexible with what activities I do. I asked that they came from reasonably good herding lines, needed a home and were fairly young. These kinds of dogs are easy to come by. Along the way, I got lucky and met some very helpful people, including breeders.

 

I certainly don't expect breeders to make commitments far into the future and anyone's situation can change abruptly. However, the 60 day return policy is an excellent red flag. Again, I am glad Donald brought it up.

[stockdogranch]

I am one of those who will always take back/buy back any dog I have produced. While I don't have a ton of room for more dogs, I have enough confidence in my breeding program that I feel I could take back any dog, put some training on it, and get it into an appropriate home (most probably a rancher needing a dog to work cattle). The only exception to that would be if the dog had been worked with an ecollar--then all bets are off.

 

So far I have only had the opportunity to buy back one--I had sold it as an 8 week old pup, and the owner suddenly passed away when the pup was just a year old. I put some training on it (a year or so, as I recall, as it had had some pretty bad training), but then took it to Red Bluff and sold her. She was great. One other pup from the same litter ended up changing hands (the guy who had bought her as a pup did *not* contact me, as our contract stated), but she went to a good home where she was being worked. Later on, she changed hands again before I got wind of it and could step in. I would have loved to have her back, as well.

A

[ShoresDog]

Slightly off topic... Anna, I remember Alli well. Also, as one of those sentimental sorts, I remember your description of how after Alli was sold at Red Bluff, her new family met up with her, and she happily went along with them and didn't look back as she set off for her new home and future life on their ranch. Sentiment and practicality can coexist -- you are a good example!

[Maja]

My pups have a lifetime guarantee too. The answer to the question "Why should I take a pup that somebody can't deal with" is simple: because it's a living creature, not a thing. If I sell a car and they crash it the next day it's not my problem. But my pup is a feeling creature, and I would go and get my pup from a shelter if they ended up there, so why go through the trouble, if I can just make sure in the contract that the puppy will come back to me. I have had one puppy returned to me, but I re-homed it though.

 

It of course puts a bit of a lid on the breeding program, but that's a part of the deal of breeding. I moved away from breeding hair sheep because I was not happy with the average hair-sheep buyer. I came to the point that if I heard one more time "I need a live lawn mower" I was going to blow my stack.

 

Maja

[terrecar]

This has been bugging me so...

Donald: I did not in any way think you were putting other people down with the word "sentimental". You are quite charitable, even when dealing with the AKC folks. Please accept my apologies for being a clumsy writer. (I'll try to pick it up on the reading comprehension as well.)

[Eileen Stein]

This has been bugging me so...

Donald: I did not in any way think you were putting other people down with the word "sentimental". You are quite charitable, even when dealing with the AKC folks. Please accept my apologies for being a clumsy writer. (I'll try to pick it up on the reading comprehension as well.)

 

Don't let it bug you! I thought your post was an insightful one, and I almost added that to what I said in response. What Donald wrote could certainly have been read as self-deprecating, and may very well have been intended as self-deprecating. I never understood you to be saying it was a put-down of others. And your point that sentiment has shaped and still shapes our ethics is a good one. Look at Dickens. Sentiment has certainly revised our attitude towards animals over the generations, and generally for the better.

 

And who could disagree with this:

 

I hear words like "usefulness" in connection with sheep herding, but I also hear words like "poetry". That smacks of a sentiment. Don't get me wrong, I share the herding/poetry sentiment, but I don't think I could successfully argue that it is on any higher plane than the animal welfare sentiment.

 

Very well said, I thought. I don't see anything in your post that Donald -- from what I know of his thinking -- would disagree with. Your post made a solid contribution to the discussion, IMO.

[Donald McCaig]

This has been bugging me so...

Donald: I did not in any way think you were putting other people down with the word "sentimental". You are quite charitable, even when dealing with the AKC folks. Please accept my apologies for being a clumsy writer. (I'll try to pick it up on the reading comprehension as well.)

 

No offense intended nor taken. My wife Anne is even more sentimental than I am. We own fifteen thirteen year old non-breeding ewes. When a guard dog is old and enfeebled, it sleeps - for the first time in its life - in the house. It's like having a second couch that likes to sleep by the stove.

 

Donald McCaig

[ShoresDog]

When a guard dog is old and enfeebled, it sleeps - for the first time in its life - in the house. It's like having a second couch that likes to sleep by the stove.

Sometimes I wish there were a "LIKE" button here! Humorous, vivid, and, yes, sentimental all at once.

[terrecar]

Thanks Eileen

 

 

and Donald, Re: your wife, I like her already! Compassionate people rock!

[MyTDogs]

Sometimes I wish there were a "LIKE" button here! Humorous, vivid, and, yes, sentimental all at once.

 

Okay, this is the second time tonight that i have looked for the like button! Kinda got me thinking we should have kept it...

[Tea]

I would take back any of my pups at any time in their lives. All our dogs sleep in the cabin. Even the retired sled dog team. Which is like having a group of couches sleeping by the wood stove!

[Gloria Atwater]

It's even more fun when one of your couches gets on the actual couch! Can't remember which of your behemoths it was, but I remember getting a good snuggle from one of the sleddies.

 

~ Gloria