BorderlineCrazy(: Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 What are the requirements for most trials? Do they need to be ABCA dogs? Do they allow dogs from other registries, such as the AKC? I'm still in the "research" stage when it comes to trials. Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 Any dog, registered (with any registry) or not registered, can run in a USBCHA-sanctioned Open class or Nursery class (meeting the age requirements, of course for Nursery). USBCHA Open is just that - open to all, so if a trial is sanctioned, it must allow any entry (up to the number that it can accomodate). If a dog, registered or unregistered, earns sufficient qualifying points for National Finals, it can also run there but there are/may be certain restrictions (I believe) on cash payouts or awards (since ABCA is a big sponsor), although the dog may run and place like any other dog. I just don't remember the details on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted December 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 Thank you. So, would you happen to know how common/uncommon it is for an AKC dog to place(1st, 2nd, 3rd) in open trials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 Pretty rare. It has happened (one dog I can think of), but not with any regularity at all, A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted December 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Just what I was hoping to hear. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 How common or uncommon are other breeds in USBCHA trials? Has anyone seen Kelpies, Aussies, anything else, or mixes compete and do well or place in USBCHA trials, any class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 I've not seen much other then border collies running on sheep in the open field, but there were two Aussies at the Yellow Rose Cattle Dog Trials this past weekend running in Open, both did well, it was a tough go. He also ran the pair in the sheep division at the same trial and I know 1 was in the money, I believe 3rd out of 30 dogs. One had placed high enough at Denver last year to earn himself a spot into the National Cattledog Finals but the owner was unaware of the USBCHA membership requirement prior to entering Denver. He is a member now. Janet Covington used to come to the cattledog trials with a awesome little Kelpie female, Karot (sp?). A friend of Wayne's down in Texas, run kelpies on sheep, he was at the Oklahoma State Fair in the sheep division with Wayne, I don't know if he runs open field or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 I have seen a few Kelpies and Aussies run reasonably in the lower classes (I think Novice and ProNov). In my very limited experience, I've never seen another breed run in Open. It's not common to see them at trials but I have seen a few that would do a fine job on someone's farm or ranch as a working stockdog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Thank you. So, would you happen to know how common/uncommon it is for an AKC dog to place(1st, 2nd, 3rd) in open trials? It depends on how you define AKC dog. There are probably more cross-registered tha people realize. I've seen a few do quite well (of those I know the registration for). But those are realy ABCA dogs with AKC papers added on. I don't know all that many 'pure' AKC-only dogs running beyond the novice level, let alone in Open and getting into the ribbons regularly. I do not personally know of any running in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Butch Larson was quite successful with his kelpie Oscar - what a grand dog. If I recall correctly, he made it to Saturday at the 2000 National sheepdog Finals in El Reno, Oklahoma. They were a great team. Amy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 I could register Nan with the AKC and then say I am sucessfully running an AKC Border Collie in USBCHA trials and she has a good chunk of points for the upcoming Finals...but I think you are asking any AKC bred Border Collies...meaning ones that are not ABCA lines but from only AKC lines with o outcross to ABCA lines....if that is your question.....then...NO. I am talking AKC lines that do not have any ABCA dogs in at least four generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Are there any "true" AKC line border collies yet? Not talking conformation lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Are there any "true" AKC line border collies yet? Not talking conformation lines. I'm nots sure what you mean by this question? Most working stockdog people mean conformation lines when they say AKC border collies. It goes without saying that working-bred dogs whose owners have dual registered them with AKC don't really count as AKC dogs when answering the OP's question. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Any stockdog breed is welcome! I've seen a couple kelpies and an Aussie in Pro-Novice, but I don't think they get much beyond that point. They're just not bred for the sort of work a BC does, out there a umpty-hundred yards. As for "true AKC lines," if you mean dogs that are bred from nothing but AKC show lines, you bet there are. I've seen them. They were stocky, boxy dogs with tons of coat and absolutely no working instinct. At best, they'd make a chasing dive at the sheep, then go back to eating poop pellets. They probably go back 5 or 6 generations of show dogs, by now, if not more. I suspect some are from imported Australian or New Zealand show dog lines. But definitely there are AKC barbie collies out there whose working ancestors are so far back, they're completely off their pedigree page. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted December 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/breed_judging/herding/2010_3/border-collie/v1201639 Look at them. They're like clones. Disgusting little clones. I'd like to bring my dog in there and show them what a REAL Border Collie looks like. She'd be busy trying to herd all the other dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelliePup Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 http://video.westmin...collie/v1201639 Look at them. They're like clones. Disgusting little clones. I'd like to bring my dog in there and show them what a REAL Border Collie looks like. She'd be busy trying to herd all the other dogs. They're all soooo...... boxy. Like Aussies with longer backs. No wonder I was told KZ's flanks weren't wide enough. Silly me, my first thought was "How would you know? You haven't seen her work! ----- Oh, you mean her butt." Wouldn't be able to turn fast on stock my a$$. Is it just me, or do the working border collies seem sleeker? More streamlined and aerodynamic? There goes my aviation background again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Any stockdog breed is welcome! I've seen a couple kelpies and an Aussie in Pro-Novice, but I don't think they get much beyond that point. They're just not bred for the sort of work a BC does, out there a umpty-hundred yards. Many lines of kelpies are bred to work at large distances, and can easily cast (outrun) over a kilometre. They aren't bred to do ISDS/USBCHA style trials, certainly, but they are much, much closer to border collies in their work than either breed is to Australian Shepherds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 There is a kelpie in this area running in open. BorderlineCrazie, You could show your dog all year long and you wouldn't teach anyone anything. It's a whole different mindset that drives conformation breeding and showing. When AKC first recognized the border collie, some working breeders did enter their dogs in shows to try to educate about working border collies--you can see that those efforts had little lasting effect and so really just put $$ in AKC coffers with no useful outcome. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 A friend of mine, Angie Untisz (OR), used to run her kelpie, Dodge, in Open....both sheep and cattle. He wasn't consistent in the sheepdog placings, but every so often he'd kick border collie butt. I also remember in 2003 or 2004, Eric Harlow (OR) took his kelpie, Dillon, to the USBCHA Nursery Finals in Sturgis. And I believe George Frei (OR) qualified his Australian Shepherd, Grit (??) for the USBCHA Open Cattle Finals in Red Bluff, CA....I believe that all of his qualifying points came from arena trials. Another handler, Ron Green (WA) used to run a kelpie, Chocko, that he had some success with in USBCHA Open Cattle trials....I can't remember but I'm certain he would have qualified for a Cattle Finals or two. There are a couple of sporter collies (agility bred...working x nonworking pedigree) running in Open in this region...one or two place semi-regularly in Open. There have also been a handful of unregistered dogs qualify and compete at the National Finals. USBCHA Open/Nursery (and training classes...PN, NN) trial entry forms usually don't ask for registration numbers.....so it doesn't matter what registry, what breed or whether the dog is registered at all. It only matters that the dog can complete the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 In Canada there is one trial that allows only CBCA registerd dogs. The Canadian Championship. You must be a CBCA member and your dog must be registered with the CBCA. So it is not an open trial All open trials are just that, Open to anyone /any breed that can do the work. I have had an ongoing argument with a friend who does AKC herding that AKC registerd dogs are not allowed to compete in USBCHA trials. That is not true, they can run in the trials, no one cares who they are registered with, if they are border collies, or if they are registered at all. Andrea Dekenedy ran a kelpie named Toby in open with some success. We have several kelpies running in NN and PN; A couple of aussies and shelties have run in the NN level. In Canada the only AKC registered dogs are conformation dogs that show in the CKC and AKC and I've not been particularly enamoured with them. They have lost their outrun and sense of balance. And some don't really want to work, just chase and run away. Cynthia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 And Coleen Hawker runs kelpies in Colorado/Utah, at at least the open ranch level. I am not sure if she is running open with any of them yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Laura, was that the kelpie that I met at Finals this year? He was a nice dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Laura, was that the kelpie that I met at Finals this year? He was a nice dog. Certainly was, Jan! Coleen and her dogs were helping with exhaust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 There are Kelpies capable of running Open, but they are few and far between mainly due to lack of training. Gusto (my Kelpie) has all the skills but due to many factors he isn't ready to run Open. He has run PN and Open ranch and has run Open on cattle. Other breeds are allowed to run in USBCHA trials but few would be capable of getting around the course in the time limit. You will see other breeds at the lower levels (which are not official classes) from time to time and in arena trials. Unlike AKC Border Collie trials are for the most 'Open' to all who can do the work--that in and of itself limits entries for many. As others have said, AKC registration can mean a lot of different types of dogs called Border Collies. A well bred working dog can be registered with AKC and hence compete in both AKC and USBCHA, but a show line bred dog would likely not be able of being competative in USBCHA trials although allowed to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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