Lines with Seizures

[rushdoggie]

Yes. I have a good friend going through this with her good boy right now and its so heartbreaking. This disease is so hard on the owners...

[Liz P]

At the genetics and breeding conference this fall, the researches didn't sound too optimistic about developing a genetic test for epilepsy or HD. The problem they are facing is the apparent polygenic nature of the diseases. A feeling of frustration permeated the room while they discussed the issue.

 

From the way they were talking, the DNA test for adult onset hearing loss should be out in the very near future (unless they run into more snags).

[abcollie]

At the genetics and breeding conference this fall, the researches didn't sound too optimistic about developing a genetic test for epilepsy or HD. The problem they are facing is the apparent polygenic nature of the diseases. A feeling of frustration permeated the room while they discussed the issue.

 

From the way they were talking, the DNA test for adult onset hearing loss should be out in the very near future (unless they run into more snags).

 

Well, that's depressing :@( I know there is a lot of research with humans but I doubt it includes "breeding" as much as it has with dogs?

 

Good news on the Onset hearing! I guess one thing at a time ... just glad someone is working on it.

[vandog]

Hi. Back when I lived in the states, I met two dogs from a popular (color) breeder in Oklahoma that were epileptic. They shared a common ancestor a few generations back. Both were purchased for herding/agility, and both were incredibly prone to seizures and had a pretty poor quality of life.

Here in Canada there is a local breeder (Vancouver area) who breeds and several of her pups had epilepsy. Seeing as they are from different litters but shared bloodlines, I'd venture to guess that it is indeed genetic.

I'd ask the breeder about epilepsy in their lines, but don't always expect an honest answer. That's where research and finding past puppy buyers on your own comes in handy.

[abcollie]

Are there genetic diseases that only come from one parent ... or are the majority found to be recessive and need both sides of the pedigree to reproduce it? I read something about genetically dominant trait (which I would assume meant ... only one side of the pedigree?)

[Mark Billadeau]

Here is a good overview Basic Genetics. This is from the top of this webpage.

 

We now know that chromosomes are essentially DNA molecules. In an advanced (eukaryotic) cell, these chromosomes appear as threadlike structures packaged into a more or less central part of the cell, bound by a membrane and called the nucleus. What is more important is that the chromosomes in a body cell are arranged in pairs, one from the father and one from the mother. Further, the code for a particular protein is always on the same place on the same chromosome. This place, or location, is called a locus (plural loci.)

 

There are generally a number of slightly different genes that code for forms of the same protein, and fit into the same locus. Each of these genes is called an allele. Each locus, then, will have one allele from the mother and one from the father.

 

This means both parents contribute alleles to the offspring, however, one of these alleles will be dominant. This is a good description of dominant and recessive.

 

The terms dominant and recessive refer to the interaction of alleles in producing the phenotype (what we see) of the heterozygote (offspring that carries one copy of both allele options). If there are two alternative phenotypes, by definition the phenotype exhibited by the heterozygote is called "dominant" and the "hidden" phenotype is called "recessive". The key concept of dominance is that the heterozygote is phenotypically identical to one of the two homozygotes (offspring that carries 2 copies of the same allele option). That trait corresponding to the dominant allele may then be called the "dominant" trait.

 

If you read through the Basic Genetics webpage the author gives the Black & brown example where Black is the dominant allele and brown is recessive which means any offspring that gets a Black allele from a parent will look (phenotype) Black and in order for the phenotype to be brown the offspring must get two brown alleles.

 

In terms of diseases, if the allele associated with the disease is dominant than any dog that carries one copy of that allele will be "affected". This hypothetical disease could easily be bred out since every dog that carries any copies of the allele for this disease is obvious.

[Liz P]

And then you can get into the more complex stuff like sex linked traits (carried on the sex chromosomes). For example, normal male x normal female = cryptorchid male pups. The female carried the gene but no one would have known because her ovaries didn't need to go anywhere.

 

Or late onset health problems that are still dominant like polycystic kidney disease in some breeds of cat. Only a single copy of the gene is needed, but the cats are generally middle aged before they get sick, so they have already been bred. The carrier rate in some breeds is as high as 40%.

 

Or traits that don't express the same level of disease from one dog to another (like CEA).

 

The study of genetics is very complex, but I find it fascinating. People thought I was crazy when I took extra classes on the subject in college for fun.

[abcollie]

Thanks guys ... I think :@)

[Mark Billadeau]

Dr Neff suspects there is a gene which causes EOD (early onset deafness) and likely another gene which controls when.

 

 

[abcollie]

Dr Neff suspects there is a gene which causes EOD (early onset deafness) and likely another gene which controls when.

 

Wow ... interesting and so much more complicated than what it seems :@(

[Pam Wolf]

but what happens when Mr Bad Ass Big shot Ben's siblings/grandchildren get bred together, isn't there a greater chance of epilepsy? It pays to know the information and sometimes it is worth the risk.

 

In the case of the hypothetical Ben, I would risk him (provided I liked how he worked and how his offspring worked), but would be grateful to have the knowledge that the owners were willing to share and not just sweep it under the rug nor cover it up with half truths.

[cetrulo]

Hi! I've been lurking for awhile and even tho this thread is old, it seems the appropriate place to post. I used to breed Aussies (no knives please!) and was involved heavily with the breed for over 15 years. My last breeding, which I researched for years) produced an epileptic pup. After I went very public with this knowledge, I was approached by an alarming number of people who had information I could've used before the fact. Even worse, I had already talked to some of them!

 

In a long winded way, I will get to the point. I have a lovely 5 year old BC bitch that I would like to breed. I've been able to get *some* information on her pedigree and some on the potential sire, but researching lines is proving difficult and getting some folks to talk to me...well...

 

Any ideas? I'm more that willing to communicate privately and I'm not out for gossip mongering. My Aussie pup broke my heart enough that I spayed/neutered everyone and its taken me over 7 years to even think about breeding anything again. I know every breeding is a risk but some are riskier than others.

[Sue R]

In a long winded way, I will get to the point. I have a lovely 5 year old BC bitch that I would like to breed. I've been able to get *some* information on her pedigree and some on the potential sire, but researching lines is proving difficult and getting some folks to talk to me...well...

Welcome!

 

First - have you read the "Read This First"? If you haven't already, or are not very familiar with the prevailing philosophy of these boards, particularly with regards to breeding, you might want to do so.

 

Second - Although you have "some" information on her and a potential sire's pedigrees, just what is outstanding about your bitch that leads you to feel that she is breeding-worthy? Is she an outstanding trial/farm/ranch dog (and by outstanding, I mean is she a reasonably successful Open level trial dog, or a farm/ranch dog that has shown herself very capable of doing good work at a level that is demanding and multi-dimensional)?

 

Third - What is your reason for wanting to breed your bitch? Is she (as above) a quality example of the working Border Collie? Do you want/need a replacement pup for your own use from this type of bitch? Do you have at least some people interested (truly interested, as a lot of people say they want a dog "just like yours" until the pups are on the ground or become old enough to outgrow the cute puppy stage and are chewing, making messes, nipping the children, etc.) in pups from this breeding for stockwork (and not simply pet, companion, sports, or other uses). In other words, is the primary reason for breeding to produce quality working-potential pups or pets/companions/performance dogs?

 

My reasons for asking these questions should be understood if you read the "Read This First".

[vandog]

I personally believe that epilepsy is the result of a certain genetic match at work.

i.e a male bred to a female a will produce 0 pups with epilepsy

same male bred to female b will produce pups with epilepsy

I think the pedigree/genetic cross idea works because certain breeders have dogs from the same or similar crosses producing epilepsy.

 

I also think epilepsy is a real problem because breeders aren't patient and don't wait for health results. Epilepsy typically shows up in dogs that are three or older - so say you like the way the bitch's first litter is maturing at two, and you repeat the cross. Puppies in the older litter start seizing and you are stuck with now two litters of potential epilepsy dogs.

 

With that being said, there is no test so it is a risk that you must take owning a Border Collie.

 

To avoid any legal issues, I will say that I have friends with dogs with vet confirmed epilepsy from:

Rising Sun Kennels

Lock Eye BC

Astra Sheepdogs

[vandog]

Hi! I've been lurking for awhile and even tho this thread is old, it seems the appropriate place to post. I used to breed Aussies (no knives please!) and was involved heavily with the breed for over 15 years. My last breeding, which I researched for years) produced an epileptic pup. After I went very public with this knowledge, I was approached by an alarming number of people who had information I could've used before the fact. Even worse, I had already talked to some of them!

 

In a long winded way, I will get to the point. I have a lovely 5 year old BC bitch that I would like to breed. I've been able to get *some* information on her pedigree and some on the potential sire, but researching lines is proving difficult and getting some folks to talk to me...well...

 

Any ideas? I'm more that willing to communicate privately and I'm not out for gossip mongering. My Aussie pup broke my heart enough that I spayed/neutered everyone and its taken me over 7 years to even think about breeding anything again. I know every breeding is a risk but some are riskier than others.

 

My bitch is mostly cattle/ranch dog lines (no show records, because they work for a living) and Holman. I found the information on here quite easily using google. If you can't find her breeding online or it's an unknown, that might be a red flag. How is she bred? I assume ABCA.

[Amelia]

From personal experience, here's what I know about epilepsy in dogs.

 

Brains teach themselves to seize, so each seizure increases the liklihood of another. Dr. Jean Dodds has done work that is nothing short of miraculous with seizure dogs, and I would go to her immediately asking for her 5-panel thyroid test, and recommendations. The sooner the better.

 

http://www.hemopet.org/ Her website.

 

Epilipsy can sometimes be controlled with drugs other than debilitating phenobarbitol and potassium and sodium bromide. Soloxine, a thyroid hormone, can dramatically reduce/control/eliminate seizures in some (hypothyroid) dogs. So can diet, timed feedings, and titer tests instead of vaccinations.

 

So much great info in this thread. Thanks so much everyone.

[Wings]

Hey, Hello!

 

I am breeder from German,

and hope to find some more "Lines with seizures" but it seems that here is more about genetic basics.

 

It's a very interesting but also frustrating topic.

And i think it will be like in German, no one like to talk about or know about it.

The most breeders take it personally instead of responding to them.

 

Liz

[Maja]

Here is some good information:

http://www.bcccz.cz/epilepsie.html

[Pam Wolf]

Here is some good information:

http://www.bcccz.cz/epilepsie.html

 

Thanks Maja! If only all owners/breeders would be so forthcoming!

 

Unfortunately this isn't our only issue, i am hearing more and more of people willingly/knowlingly breeding lines that are known to produce early onset deafness. It is a sad state this breed is heading towards!

[Maja]

I wrote to them about a pup from my Kennel. But doing right gives no comfort, I can tell you that.

 

maja

[DeltaBluez Tess]

.

 

 

To avoid any legal issues, I will say that I have friends with dogs with vet confirmed epilepsy from:

Rising Sun Kennels

Lock Eye BC

Astra Sheepdogs

 

 

What lines have the epilepsy? Do ALL of the dogs they own have it? I would BET not all of their dogs have epilepsy? If any dogs have epilepsy, it would be certain lines.

 

What tests did the vet use to confirm it was Hereditary epilepsy or seizues that maybe caused by encephalitis or Canine distemper or liver issues?

[juliepoudrier]

What tests did the vet use to confirm it was Hereditary epilepsy or seizues that maybe caused by encephalitis or Canine distemper or liver issues?

I know you didn't ask me this question, but I can say that the first marker was seizures occurring after the 2nd birthday in a vaccinated dog (won't mention the possibility of vaccines causing seizures). A complete physical exam and blood panel after the first seizure. Record keeping on my point detailing when the seizures occurred. Oh, and in my dog's case, control of the seizures with classic seizure meds.

 

I guess one could argue that these few things aren't PROOF of epilepsy, but then again, that's why the full name is idiopathic (= arising spontaneously or from an obscure or unknown cause) epilepsy. In my dog's case, two littermates also had seizures (one started at nearly 6 years old), so diagnosis was also based on the fact that close relatives were diagnosed as epileptic.

 

In fact, after my dog's first seizure, my vet specifically said that epilepsy would not have been his first diagnosis, especially given my dog's non-classical presentation, except for the fact that there was a littermate that had seizures.

 

Anyway, there is no test to prove idiopathic epilespy. It's diagnosed based on elimination (which is I think what you're asking about; that is, what possible seizure causes have been tested for and ruled out).

 

The problem I have with discussions of "lines with seizures" is that, at least in my case, neither line (sire or dam) had produced seizures, and yet the cross I made produced it. And then do the lines that created my bitch get labeled as lines with seizures, even though all crosses up to and beyond my bitch (close relatives all over the place) have never exhibited seizures? Or is the line with seizures just the pups from the cross that actually produced seizures, and any offspring they might have?

 

Everyone who knows me knows that I am completely up front about the dogs I produced with seizures. One had to be euthanized because the seizures became uncontrollable. My one dog is well controlled with traditional medications. The two surviving epileptics are neutered as are all but maybe one of that litter. And the person with the intact dog is well aware of the epilepsy. So that particular line ended with those pups. But do we then work backward and say the dam's and/or sire's lines are now lines with seizures (even though, as I said before, the dams lines have been used far and wide with no known epilepsy, and the sires lines also do not appear to have produced it in other crosses)?

 

In my case, I was thinking about breeding a close relative of my bitch, and one of the potential studs that I liked got knocked out of the running because he's the grandson of the brother to the sire of my epileptic pups. Chances are the cross wouldn't produce epilepsy, but I won't take that chance.

 

I think all breeders should be upfront about any suspected genetic diseases that have appeared in their pups, but I have a harder time labeling whole lines as problematic, especially when the diseases in question are polygenic. The only way to know if a line truly produces something with any frequency would be to do a bunch of test matings and see what the outcomes were, but most people wouldn't want to produce a bunch of puppies just to prove that their lines did or did not have something. JMO.

 

J.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

JUlie

 

Good answer. I appreciate you are upfront about your dogs.It would be interesting to see what had to line up to make that happen, given the fact the generations were fine.

 

What I was trying to say was by stating certain kennels have proven epilepsy sounded like all dogs had it. And what proof and how many dogs? Was there a common dog in the dogs that had epilepsy? What type of epilepsy? How was it figured out it was epilepsy?

 

 

I think it has to be certain combination to cause the epilepsy and not perhaps the lines. Otherwise we would see a lot more epilepsy. What is the common denominator?

 

Labeling a kennel or a person's line with epilepsy or deafness or blindness can do a lot of damage. Was the breeding done knowingly? Was it done and then it showed up? Did follow-on litter produce it? Was different sire/dams used? Was money offered back? Was the new owner part of the problem, via meds, over stimulation or ??? It may NOT be totally the dogs fault.

 

 

I sold a dog that was partially blind in one eye and the new owner was well aware of that. I found out later that another person was telling people I was selling blind dogs or dogs that would go blind. I went to her and had the vet report that stated "the dog had lost part of his vision when he ran into a stick." This was provided to me by the prior owner as part of the sale as well as the vet visit notes. The prior owner took him to the vet right after the accident. Then I asked her to name the "other dogs" that were blind...in front of the people she had been telling that my dogs were blind.....she crawled off and the issue was closed. She didnt look at the report either. The issue have never come up again.

 

As a good breeding, you need to disclose all you know about your dogs as well as the lines. That way buyer can make an informed choice.

 

Diane

[Pam Wolf]

Unfortunately people like to demean others and their dogs any chance they get. But I applaude the owners willing to let information on possible genetic problems become public. If people would not make it a sin to have a dog with a problem and use the information for the overall good of the breed, then perhaps we would see a lot less of the major issues affecting the breed today.

[Liz P]

Diane,

 

I have personally done research on one bloodline and know people who have researched others. At one time I had a list of dozens of dogs from one kennel with classic idiopathic epilepsy. You can trace it clearly in some lines (from kennels that keep a bloodline and line breed on it). Even when dogs from that kennel were outcrossed it seemed there was a higher rate of epilepsy in the pups. To me, that says the dogs carried a higher percentage of the genes responsible for causing epilepsy.

 

I do think that like HD, every Border Collie probably carries at least some of the genes that cause epilepsy. You can breed normal parents together and produce epilepsy or HD in a litter when those same parents have been crossed with other mates and produced only healthy pups.