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Serena+Eluane B.C.

Bridging division between Working Border Collie Tradition vs. “Working” Agility Dogs+Other Disciplines

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.

 

Also great news is that I'm looking forward to visiting a sheepherding farm in 2012, hooooray! It's quite a long drive, and lol, it is a little less than double the distance that I've ever had to travel to a trial. 36 miles is the farthest I will go to an agility trial...Hopefully my incessant loopy learning-disability way of communicating is not gonna spin outta control and tire the sheepherder out, lol! Bless her! I am a handful, so I did talk to her more in detail about the learning disability and the typical havoc it wields...

 

Tea I'm going to look at your blog tomorrow, more in depth but here is only the tip of the iceberg on the questions I will be slamming you and another very kind sheepherder with in the future...

 

 

 

 

 

If nothing else, this shows the importance of understanding where your food comes from. Thank goodness for people like Tea who work so hard to remind us!

 

"There are two dangers in not owning a farm: the belief that heat comes from the furnace and food comes from the supermarket." - Aldo Leopold.

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Dear Wouldbe Agilitydoggers,

 

I love my candy-colored agility dog! She's purty. :-) And you know I can see firsthand now that RED DOGS ARE CRAZY! :lol:

 

 

Woof! (Robin objecting to the generic label "crazy".)

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Any border collie once it sees another border collie utilizing the equipment, will know exactly what to do. They are that smart. Show them another border collie with its agility handler, they will not be pissing on that equipment

 

This just cracks me up! You can't be serious Serena.

 

And this....

Also great news is that I'm looking forward to visiting a sheepherding farm in 2012, hooooray! It's quite a long drive, and lol, it is a little less than double the distance that I've ever had to travel to a trial. 36 miles is the farthest I will go to an agility trial...

 

I'd love to live in a world where i never had to drive more that 36 miles to get anywhere. My DH drives over 40 miles one way to get to work, we consider it a privilege to live out in the country. And nope I'm not trialing at the moment either, for the same reasons Julie mentions. But we have the farm so no need to feel bad for myself.

 

I keep coming back to read this thread....really feels like torture or a bad sitcom now!

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Thank you Julie, exactly what I was going to say.

 

Way to "build bridges" Serena. It's a good thing tracking doesn't involve any brains, otherwise all those SAR dogs would be useless (extreme sarcasm if you can't tell).

 

You want to see masterful timing? Try Attlia and Fly, arguably one of the best teams this world has ever seen. So it's not ballet, but the skill it takes to get to this level can still be appreciated. I dare you, Serena, to even attempt something like this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crmD_B8ERzk

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi4qvMmWJWs&feature=related

 

 

I need to leave this thread now before I get really nasty.

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Any border collie once it sees another border collie utilizing the equipment, will know exactly what to do. They are that smart.

 

You seriously believe that? :blink:

 

And other than that, I got nothin'. Every one of your posts just gets further and further "out there". I think Julie's advice is spot on.

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Yup, Julie covered it all.

 

36 miles? Are you for real?

 

WOW!!!! :(

 

By the way, nice approach to "bridging the division"!

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You want to see masterful timing? Try Attlia and Fly, arguably one of the best teams this world has ever seen.

 

And you know what is most impressive about Attila? He doesn't talk down to his fellow Freestylers, regardless of their level. He doesn't refer to us as "mere hobbyists" or "pet owners" or "mediocre". He is respectful, and sincerely interested in those who participate in the sport, regardless of skill level, goals, etc. He doesn't give anyone a "pat on the back". He has authentic respect and it is obvious by the way he expresses himself in discussion.

 

If he talked in such a manner (hobbyists, mediocre, etc.), I would have zero respect for him, regardless of his achievements or performance level. I respect him primarily because of his respect for others in the sport, secondly for his training and performance ability.

 

And he is a phenomenal trainer and performer, certainly one of the best in the world.

 

I dare you, Serena, to even attempt something like this.

 

I double dare you. :D And with video, please!!

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Those freestyle videos are amazing.

 

Are the dogs' moves cued verbally or is it all handler body language and non verbal cues?

 

Attila is using almost all non verbal cues. Most are choreographed in a way that they aren't obvious unless you are looking for them. For instance, as the dog sidepasses toward him, and he lifts up his own leg in a kind of "kick", he cues the leap into the air on the sidepass. The head wiggle as he pivots in place cues the continual back around. Notice when he holds his head still, Fly scoots right back into heel. The big hand wave to "come" is actually a cue to "stay", etc.

 

I'm not sure if he's using any verbal.

 

Rules on cues - verbal/nonverbal - vary from country to country and venue to venue. Here in the US (much to my dislike) there is more of an emphasis on verbal cues. There is a new venue that encourages more physical cueing, though. In Europe there is more of an emphasis on nonverbal cues.

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Yeah Serena, in that one post I think you managed to insult basically every single dog-handler team on these boards except for European and AKC "highest level" agility teams and *possibly* shepherds. The latter of which you then turned around and illustrated once again you know nothing about, yet chastise by name OTHER members of this board for not "learning about their border collie's sheepherding [sic] roots" simply because they mentioned they personally enjoy agility and that stock work is not their thing. Which NONE of the stock work people on this board even have a problem with, I'd wager to bet, yet YOU feel the need to guilt someone like that...and why?

 

You know, I'm sure it is hard for me to understand how I can't possibly be challenging my border collie's brains since I am just a mediocre pet owner who doesn't even know how to do European MACH-style AKC agility or dance ballet, but I enjoy very much, as does Odin, doing agility on found objects completely for free as someone (Julie?) mentioned earlier. I know that wouldn't begin to rise to your elitist standards but I bring it up because I just want to touch again upon the idea that you are FORCED to do what you do. I call BS. After 4 weeks and 750 posts, I think its very clear you do not have a problem with AKC really and instead consider them to be, I guess outside of Europe, the only thing worth doing with your dog. If you can't see that sort of snobbery as a CHOICE, then I just don't know what to say.

 

I mean 36 miles. Really? Really???!?!? I just drove 454 miles round trip on Friday AND worked a 7 hour day in the field. And was thinking to myself, because I'm going to need to go to that site many many times this spring, that I need to make arrangements to take Odin down and start boarding him at a stockwork trainer I know down there and setting up afternoon lessons after my field work days -- I know the work site is near that trainer because I actually have travelled and made that trip just to see that trainer before. But as a mediocre pet owner I of course do not go to nearly the lengths you do to challenge a border collie's mind.

 

And, as always, Julie said it so much better than I.

 

 

 

 

And while I'm at it, I hope you realize that while you're complaining about people disparaging agility you turn around and DO THE VERY SAME THING when you mention freestyle. Talk about OFFENSIVE. Those comments really take the cake of offensiveness. If you can do better than the folks already putting their hearts and souls into it, by all means do so. But don't come here and cry that people are unfair in their beliefs/assumptions about agility and then engage in the exact same behavior when discussing a sport in which you don't even participate. The arrogance is astounding. Big deal that you're a former ballerina. Many of the folks who post to these boards have special skills and abilities--we just choose not to trumpet it out every chance we get. And FWIW, I can name a number of artists who were considered artistic geniuses after their deaths who were actually repeatedly disparaged by their peers. Your analogies don't even work.

 

And it's a shame that you're operating under the belief that the only way to challenge your dog so completely is by doing AKC agility. How limiting for both of you.

 

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If we all stop responding, Serena will have no one with whom to 'discuss'. I think it's time to stop feeding this thread. Serena is not getting it, for whatever reason.

 

Ruth

 

HEAR HEAR! cant argue with yourself, Well unless you are truely crazy!!

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HEAR HEAR! cant argue with yourself, Well unless you are truely crazy!!

 

Please tell me there's a loophole for that maxim? :lol:

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"This is the THREAD that doesn't end, Yes, it goes on and on my friend, Some people started POSTING TO it not knowing what it was And they'll continue POSTING TO it forever just because......"

 

I think of the never ending song everytime I see another page added to this thread......it's just crazy

Shawnee

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And while I'm at it, I hope you realize that while you're complaining about people disparaging agility you turn around and DO THE VERY SAME THING when you mention freestyle. Talk about OFFENSIVE. Those comments really take the cake of offensiveness. If you can do better than the folks already putting their hearts and souls into it, by all means do so. But don't come here and cry that people are unfair in their beliefs/assumptions about agility and then engage in the exact same behavior when discussing a sport in which you don't even participate. The arrogance is astounding. Big deal that you're a former ballerina. Many of the folks who post to these boards have special skills and abilities--we just choose not to trumpet it out every chance we get. And FWIW, I can name a number of artists who were considered artistic geniuses after their deaths who were actually repeatedly disparaged by their peers. Your analogies don't even work.

 

 

Yep. You have managed to be rather insulting too many people here, not so bridge building, really.

 

And FWIW, I drive 47 miles each way to take an an agility lesson every other week, so almost 100 miles round trip. I do it twice a month because that's what I can afford (my husband is out of work right now). I rent time at an agility barn with friends to cut the cost down and do 3/4 of my training in the backyard on backyard equipment because the handling between the obstacles doesn't require professional equipment to practice. My dog has a great time, and its what I can afford right now.

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Serena-

 

 

 

Ok.....If you call me a sheepherder one more time I may have to come to Kansas and drop a house on you.

 

 

 

 

 

Your questions will be answered but you will have to call me on the phone or you could look them up.

 

 

 

My Phone number is on my blog.

 

 

 

I think you must be very young. You have a right to learn and even tho I might sound a bit onery- I actually am onery. But I will still answer your questions.

 

 

but you gotta call me.

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Any border collie once it sees another border collie utilizing the equipment, will know exactly what to do.

 

 

You must be talking about an agility bred border collie.

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Serena,

I am no longer going to spend a lot of time on this thread because I think you aren't bothering to understand what some folks are *really* saying.

 

So this time, I'm going to be quite blunt. You have repeatedly commented about how little money you have and how difficult it is for you to train because of that and also how it has caused divisiveness with your boyfriend.

 

Here's my message, as plainly as I can state it: If the thing you want to do costs more than you can afford, then you have to make CHOICES. If doing something less than competing at top levels in AKC is beneath you, then STOP WHINING about the money! Either you make a compromise, which, by the way, millions of people do every day, or you stop moaning about the lack of money and do what you need to do to have the money you need to do what you want.

 

I was already there--competing in open with enough success to qualify for the National Finals numerous times. I love training and trialing. But I don't have extra money right now. So I don't make excuses, or talk about how I'm special and I want to do only the best and therefore I just HAVE to do it the AKC way or not at all. Do you get my point? If you are unwilling to compromise because of your financial situation (and by the way, you can build agility equipment for a lot less than you claim), then stop whining about how much it all costs. It's that simple.

 

And while I'm at it, I hope you realize that while you're complaining about people disparaging agility you turn around and DO THE VERY SAME THING when you mention freestyle. Talk about OFFENSIVE. Those comments really take the cake of offensiveness. If you can do better than the folks already putting their hearts and souls into it, by all means do so. But don't come here and cry that people are unfair in their beliefs/assumptions about agility and then engage in the exact same behavior when discussing a sport in which you don't even participate. The arrogance is astounding. Big deal that you're a former ballerina. Many of the folks who post to these boards have special skills and abilities--we just choose not to trumpet it out every chance we get. And FWIW, I can name a number of artists who were considered artistic geniuses after their deaths who were actually repeatedly disparaged by their peers. Your analogies don't even work.

 

And it's a shame that you're operating under the belief that the only way to challenge your dog so completely is by doing AKC agility. How limiting for both of you.

 

At the risk of being reprimanded by Eileen, I just want to say that I think you need to get over yourself.

 

P.S. I would have thought that someone who makes a living as an artist would have the imagination and creativity to figure out how to do what you want without spending the money you say you have to struggle for in order to pay the dog club and do AKC agility....

 

 

J.

 

 

where's the like button..

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You seriously believe that? :blink:

 

And other than that, I got nothin'. Every one of your posts just gets further and further "out there". I think Julie's advice is spot on.

Amen. Even the theme from The Twilight Zone is seriously understating the unreality of each succeeding post by the OP.

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You must be talking about an agility bred border collie.

...with "sheepherding roots".

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You must be talking about an agility bred border collie.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Julie, Ooky, Rootbeer, workindogs, et al -

 

Absolutely, positively.

 

And the "Gladiator" freestyle clip was great.

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And thank you, Julie - again - for putting a great deal into perspective, clearly and straightforwardly.

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1. You cannot challenge one's pet B.C. unless you yourself are an extremely good and excellent competitor. These are the extremely difficult levels I train for. And I can't measure how successful Eluane and I are until others judge us and critique us. A brilliant ballet dancer and brilliant artist seeks to be measured by the best of our peers.

 

2. It's like being an outstanding artist or pianist versus just doing something because it's a fun hobby. Also I know of many mediocre artists who are perfectly happy and feel fulfilled where they are at. But my former colleague-illustrator friends and I would be miserable and utterly depressed producing such works. Just like being a gifted engineer or physicist who goes to CalTech, MIT and is at the head of their class- we expect a lot! out of ourselves. e "border collie"?

 

3. Because she is a border collie, Eluane must use all of her border collie brains, she must be the best she can ever be because she is a border collie, after all. Just like if I am an artist, I must do really good work!

 

4. Any border collie once it sees another border collie utilizing the equipment, will know exactly what to do. They are that smart. Show them another border collie with its agility handler, they will not be pissing on that equipment.

 

5. When one owns a border collie, "mediocre" just doesn't cut it for me. But--- I am not willing to settle for my mediocre level, not ever! Eluane needs to be mentally challenged, her mind needs to be stretched as far as it can take her.

 

6. Also great news is that I'm looking forward to visiting a sheepherding farm in 2012, hooooray! It's quite a long drive, and lol, it is a little less than double the distance that I've ever had to travel to a trial. 36 miles is the farthest I will go to an agility trial

 

7. Ummm, Rootbeer it's critical for every owner who owns a border collie to research our sheepherding roots. It not only makes for a great read but it's essential to understanding our heritage and our responsibilities as owners of Border Collies. Granted everything pales with real sheepherding, but they have that faint "shadow" of the original B.C....

 

Seriously cropped post with my numbers added.

 

1. What is wrong with just working for yourself and the joy that it brings you and your dog?

 

2. Thank goodness I'm just mediocre at everything I do and I'm happy with that, instead of endlessly searching for what may not be genuine praise or constructive criticism.

 

3. Must point this out to Stella and Twinkie, they are not using their Border Collie brains even though both are working bred. Well Twinkie's name is Twinkie for a reason.

 

4. I did do some agility work with my first Border Collie, Hope (also working bred) and she did not get it. Probably because it was a retriever who was instructing us.

 

5. Again see #1, I'm fine with being mediocre. My dogs work to the best of their ability and so do I. If that's mediocre so be it.

 

6. I am going to a sheepherding farm today. And get this, I'm driving more than 70 miles each way. Should I just pat myself on the back or ask someone else to do it?

 

7. I don't even know what to say to that. How many people do I know with Border Collies that the most research they've done is the movie Babe? Shame on them. They should quit enjoying the dogs that they love and give them to someone who will truly appreciate them.

Laura

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OK first it is possible to get good results from minimal agility equiptment. It is the training that is important. And it is TRAINING! The dogs do NOT learn from watching other dogs! this is akin to tethering a pup to an older dog in order to teach it stock work (not a good situation if you've ever seen it!). O saying my dog can learn shedding by watching trial videos. Doesn't work that way. Training is the key.

 

As for equiptment in KS winds so you have to set jumps up again when it is windy-and there are days where you can't do much due to extreme winds but there are more days when you can train. Equiptment does get wet when left outdoors and I can find 2 people not too far away who have agility equiptment outside 24/7. It lasts a few years then they have to build new stuff not too big a deal. A little imagination and equiptment is not a big problem either.

 

Freestyle takes a lot of hard work! it is also cheap to do. Dog, human, boom box (you can pick those up at thrift stores cheap or display models at stores), music and an imagination! I push it for 4H all the time as it is so user friendly. No need for expensive classes, no real need to join expensive clubs, and it is fun!

 

Tracking can easily be done on a budget and is user friendly. My dogs I tracked with LOVED it. Remember a dog's world is alot of nose work. And there is nose work-another cool new sport, training for that is NOT hard (IMO but I love scent work).

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It's like being an outstanding artist or pianist versus just doing something because it's a fun hobby. Also I know of many mediocre artists who are perfectly happy and feel fulfilled where they are at. But my former colleague-illustrator friends and I would be miserable and utterly depressed producing such works. Just like being a gifted engineer or physicist who goes to CalTech, MIT and is at the head of their class- we expect a lot! out of ourselves. We give a pat on the back to those who try their hardest. Just like my friends in England give me a supportive "pat on the back". But it all comes down to this-- you cannot train any other dog breed to reach as outstanding of a stockdog as a border collie. My challenge to myself is always--- have I utilized every single ounce of Eluane's brains to the fullest level as a pet border collie owner? Have I done my utmost that every accomplishment we make gives honor to the name "border collie"? Those are the measures that I go by. Because she is a border collie, Eluane must use all of her border collie brains, she must be the best she can ever be because she is a border collie, after all. Just like if I am an artist, I must do really good work!

 

If you truly believe it is not enough to be "just doing something because it's a fun hobby," then I don't see how you can be fulfilled by doing agility at all. Because in your scenario, a gifted engineer or physicist is indeed a border collie, but CalTech and MIT are not AKC agility, but stockwork.

 

So, following your own logic, Serena, then you are doing your border collie a huge disservice by not actually "us[ing] all her border collie brains" teaching her to work stock, as her brain was developed to do.

 

But I guess I can just give you a pat on the back for trying your hardest since you must be "miserable and utterly depressed" in your own scenario.

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