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Bridging division between Working Border Collie Tradition vs. “Working” Agility Dogs+Other Disciplines

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Dear Wouldbe Agilitydoggers,

 

I love my candy-colored agility dog! She's purty. :-) And you know I can see firsthand now that RED DOGS ARE CRAZY! :lol:

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Hey... I got one....

I just heard ACK is changing or has changed their title system for herding!!

You can now get a Master title in any level of herding! So if you want to, you can now be a master at novice!

 

Try that one on in your head....go head try it on...a master novice title! What will they think of next?

Ok.....just adding to the post numbers!

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I know I've contributed nothing to this post, just griped about it on Facebook-but really 36 pages?

Has anyone changed their opinions because of what they've read here?

 

Isn't there anything else that someone wants to talk about other than this?

Laura

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Dear Wouldbe Agilitydoggers,

 

I love my candy-colored agility dog! She's purty. :-) And you know I can see firsthand now that RED DOGS ARE CRAZY! :lol:

 

You mean they're not??? ;)

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Isn't there anything else that someone wants to talk about other than this?

Laura

 

Are you looking to build a bridge between those who want to talk about this and those who don't?

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these things do not 'earn' any achievements on paper, just in my heart.

 

Well, they do earn a glass of iced tea for the human. ;-)

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The USDAA which our BC Boards support is a fantastic organization but here is the catch. We agility folks are forced to do AKC. There are only a few scattering of USDAA trials available and you have to go to a different state hundreds of miles away to amass your rank. Tons of folks cannot afford this constant airline travel with our dogs.

 

So I never actually read the first post of this thread because it was already over 30 pages when I got here, but all I can say is WOW is this completely off the mark!! :o:blink::o

 

My dear Serena, do not include me as part of your "we". If you're referring to yourself and your situation, as you obviously are, use "I" because you don't speak for the masses of "agility folks".

 

BTW, my girl Wick was in the top 10 in all classes we entered (i.e. all but snooker) before she got injured and had to take a hiatus and I can say we didn't fly to any trials or have to drive that far away.

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Right now I get up....put goats in- milk them- put them out.

 

Sort the wool sheep that won't lamb till april- move them out of the barn and paddock area away from the hair sheep which are lambing soon. And take them down the trails to where they are currently foraging. This can be a couple of miles. Then they stay out.

 

Totally off topic (or topics as the case may be), but can you tell this suburbanite if goats and sheep can be kept together. I have been in contact with someone who breeds Nigerian Dwarf milking goats, and have been considering them for some time. This has nothing to do with stockdogs, admittedly, but..... I am also considering a couple of Babydoll Southdown sheep. Can they be kept together?

 

ETA: No space concerns. This will be on 8 rented acres.

 

How to tie this in with dogs...ah yes, KelliePup's post on early spay/neuter is very good.

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quick look at the USDAA website seems to show over 30 events across the US in each of January, Feb, and March... a bit more than a smattering?

 

dave

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Terrecar,

Sheep and goats have different mineral requirements; sheep need much less copper, and too much is toxic to them. You can run them together, but you'll have to make sure that the goats are getting sufficient copper while the sheep aren't getting too much (which means you'd probably need to set up something so you could provide mineral separately). For grazing purposes they should be fine together, but if you're feeding, the goats may be more aggressive than the sheep and hog the feed.

 

If you look in the top section of this forum (working stockdogs), there is a livestock management forum where you can post livestock questions.

 

J.

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I'm personally doing two more before the end of the year! B) Excited to be trialling again after the injury hiatus. :D

 

Congrats on getting back to it!!

 

I'm ready to go back myself. Not much longer . . .!!!!

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quick look at the USDAA website seems to show over 30 events across the US in each of January, Feb, and March... a bit more than a smattering?

 

dave

 

And if there are no events nearby, there is nothing to stop a motivated person from forming a club and hosting trials. Yes, it could take some time and work, but obviously it is done . . . And if there are AKC events nearby, there is obviously an Agility population to draw from. A lot of people cross venues if there are multiple venues that offer trials in an area.

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Thanks Julie. I think I'll start with just goats at first, mainly because the breeder is willing to sort of mentor me. I'll look through the livestock area here as well.

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Dear Rave and Dave, like I mentioned wayyyy back if you are to go through 36 pages, or just go to what I wrote, lol, you will see that the region I'm at and the trials available are very few...And neither have you considered my entire financial circumstances. I am the amongst the millions of Americans who cannot even afford any! health insurance. And the monthly prescription costs are phenomenal for me in my situation. All my money goes to my dog, making sure she's got activities which mentally and physically challenge her, gives her as much "working" mentality as possible in the region I live at and how far I can afford gas mileage. Again, read through how extremely expensive things are for me agility-wise and how I cannot afford things...Agility in itself costs $600 per year $720 without any discount per year. and we train with no one to help us save for a kind MACH friend by long distance correspondence in Illinois, the rest of the folks are in England.

 

Umm, I do think Rave that it is safe to generalize that many AKC agility Border Collie folks do not have any interest in breeding...I still maintain this. About 75% or greater I would guess....They are too busy training and competing to do this. They usually go to either sports lines or the working line. Most from what another forumer tells me, most go to sports lines but indeed there are those like myself who prefer the working lines. My Illinois MACH friend chose a farm border collie.

 

Virginia MACH handler who relocated to Kansas complains allllll the time about our lack of trials and how far out he has to travel. We are not like Illinois where you get a trial every weekend. My total trials is one in February, one in April, and usually 2 in September and that's it for us. Those are the only ones close enough for me. I cannot take the USDAA because the tire is too small and set too high....Eluane goes so fast through the tire that it's a possible crash and burn...If this were to happen, it would set us back an entire 8-12 months' worth and I'm unwilling to take this risk, until next year, when Eluane will be ready to take that risk. In the past, only one USDAA was available and close enough to compete additionally. Once a year does not cut it for me. Ha! Person with my particular disabilities cannot organize, cannot lead anything...I have to worry about getting enough freelance to pay the bills, folks. I already sap out 8-12 hours every week driving, setting up equipment, getting video, commuting, preparing video for my friends to help me out, NO TIME LEFT!!!! Eluane deserves and needs every second of my time! Plus making friends with my offbeat, kooky personality is very difficult too. Lack of verbal and communication skills is another aspect of my learning disabilities.

 

Folks who explained about the sheepherding and things involved, THANK YOU! and hehe, would love to see some videos on some of the cool Open trials at sheepherding trials from the experts too. And the simpler videos on daily living as well with accompanying explanations. Folks believe me, even the breakdown of daily living on a farm, even with its variance is part of the respect we pay by learning some of that culture too. It's what being part of the Border Collie family is about. We need some common ground of understanding and really wanting to explore things. Going to separate threads is often very difficult for us agility folks to understand. Because we do get confused about the terminologies. I keep trying but certain phrases I started to lose out on, until Gloria finally posted the basic elements about drive, and other sheepherding elements... Gloria's video is a stepping stone, and stepping stones are very important for sheepherding folks to help the rest of the "family" catch up with that knowledge. For those later-agility folks here is what she sent as a refresher.

 

 

But in the same way, it's important to have agility experts also sharing some of their knowledge visually. That's why I question why our agility section doesn't have this on at our boards....Our section is so weak compared to England. No comparison, if I am to be brutally honest. Everyone else scatters to the winds in the U.S. It quickly becomes a commercial endeavor where you are forced to go to private trainers, buying books, videos, ridiculously expensive seminars, paying through the teeth in certain locales like mine if they have specific ambitions and goals in mind.

 

In the same way I hope sheepherding folks can start compiling other things about their farm life, how they start preparing for their typical tasks during certain seasons.

 

You see what troubles me is that so far only a scattering of agility folks with really great performances are not adding their own links either. And there is a shutdown in that it seems if I look back on all 36 pages, very few sheepherding folks have any interest in agility and some don't want agility videos shown at all...As Mums24dog noted, in England, there is no "us versus them". And perhaps this is why our agility section on our Boards is so weak by comparison. At least Mums24Dog had some absolutely lovely agility videos and no one yet save for a scattering have commented on them. In England there is a shared community too. The venues are outdoor, there's a lot of flowing spaces. Also their courses are far more advanced. It took a few threads overseas before I started to realize this, and my own limited experience--Eluane and I are just starting the Excellent level already, so I bare had much opportunity to study our U.S. Excellent level. Nowhere as difficult as internationally. I come here because I love to learn about the sheepherding and about the traditions. But for learning about agility, an agility person who does no sheepherding or livestock work is gonna get pretty darn scared if they look at some of the undertones of "Agility is nothing but fun and games" and that it is an "inferior" endeavor...

 

Kelliepup, thank you for very "rationally" explaining pros/cons issues about spaying/neutering. Just for me, personally, there is still a huge difference between spaying a very young tender age of 8-14 weeks too young whether or not it's a teacup or a St. Bernard pup, and there are horror stories of botched operations as well for too young of an age. Six months is young enough to speedily recover, and mature enough not to mess with hormones IMHO. A tiny teacup at 8-14 weeks is not ready...6 mos. it is mature enough to be ready... Kelliepup, you say a sheepherder should spay at this young of an age if an agility person who wants a young pup from their lines, and that is why I am doing a total yikes and am totally against this.... It's better to have a paper contract and ask that the new owner submit veterinarian spaying/neutering proof that they honored the contract. This is all that is necessary!

 

Folks, all I know is that I have indeed learned a huge amount from this thread....I've had the opportunity to look at great videos, I learned more about the sheepherding lifestyle. Changing minds is a gradual process I'm thinking. It's keeping our minds open, discussing. Heck one can't even change one's own relatives, lol! so it takes tiiiiime! and we are still all part of the Border Collie family, no matter what. Just think of this as somewhat of a messy family reunion.... :P

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It's not the owner's sentience that confers that responsibility. Perhaps we are using different meanings of the term sentient?

 

Souls are matters tied to beliefs about the essence of beings (usually human but increasingly also non humans) and are not the same thing as morality--regardless of what some people may believe. Certainly, it is not the fact that some people believe humans to have souls that makes it illegal for parents to castrate their children but legal to castrate their companion animals.

 

I think perhaps we are using different definitions.

 

I am using both sentience and the soul as interconnecting elements in the definition of a person. Sentience in the terms of using the conscious mind, ie reasoning, to determine courses of action rather than acting on instinct. The soul, among other definitions, is defined as a person's moral nature.

 

The law is very much into the definition of a person, as is evidenced with the US shady history regarding women and ethnic groups (especially these, Native and African Americans were not thought to possess a soul, therefore they were not human) other than Caucasian.

 

(My point in bringing up gender ambiguity was that parents are free to (consent to) castrate their children if they deem those children to have ambiguous genitals--I agree that they are generally not free to perform such castrations themselves. It's interesting to consider, perhaps, what would happen if a "mentally deranged" person, who showed evidence of cocaine and methadone in their blood at the time, castrated their pet dog with a sharp instrument while it slept--as was described in the article you linked to. Somehow, I suspect they could be charged with animal cruelty. But, I'm not a lawyer. ETA: It does bring up questions regarding the topic of this thread though. :D )

 

That's a good point. I had forgotten about ambiguous genitals. They did a special about it on tv a while ago, but I'm afraid I don't remember much except that the adult children were irate when they found out what had happened. It does pose an interesting case though about whether the actual genitalia is needed for the body to release testosterone and estrogen in sufficient quantities for gender identity as the child grows.

 

There was another case some years ago about a mother castrating her son to get back at her husband. I just can't remember where I read it... It's not common, but it does occur from time to time.

 

I suspect animal cruelty charges could be leveled at such a person. The judge or the jury would have to decide.

 

Yeah... I don't know what to make of the story behind that thread. I don't know why anyone would do it that way when there are other, safer methods to use?

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A tiny teacup at 8-14 weeks is not ready...6 mos. it is mature enough to be ready... Kelliepup, you say a sheepherder should spay at this young of an age if an agility person who wants a young pup from their lines, and that is why I am doing a total yikes and am totally against this.... It's better to have a paper contract and ask that the new owner submit veterinarian spaying/neutering proof that they honored the contract. This is all that is necessary!

 

No vet that I know would perform a surgery on a puppy that small. That's where size and weight comes in.

 

I did not say, "a sheepherder should spay at this young of an age if an agility person who wants a young pup from their lines."

 

What I said is that the only way to be absolutely certain a dog was not used for breeding was to spay/neuter it before it goes to its new home. I said that a bit tongue in cheek from a rescuer's mentality because I know the logistics of it are really not possible, but the sentiment, that being 100% certain the dog is not bred, holds true because, while a contract could be broken with really no legal ramifications, the surgery is irreversible. The next best suggestion I have read on this thread is a co-ownership arrangement until the surgery takes place when the dog is older.

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P.S. I have several lifestyle sheepherding/goat herding questions for Tea but will post my questions this weekend. No time left. Entire rest of the week has to involve freelance and Eluane...

 

Ummm, city vets here refuse to spay regardless of "size" or breed that young either (8-14 weeks)

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Folks, all I know is that I have indeed learned a huge amount from this thread.

 

Really? Because your position seems to have changed not one iota.

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But in the same way, it's important to have agility experts also sharing some of their knowledge visually. That's why I question why our agility section doesn't have this on at our boards....Our section is so weak compared to England.

 

I don't know that anyone here is particularly interested in discussing "experts" (on the other hand, there very well could be), but if that is something that you are interested in seeing discussed in the Agility section, you could always start topics on the subject. Anyone who is interested would most likely join in the discussion.

 

I'm not sure why you would expect to see discussion of a topic in a particular section of the board that you haven't really brought forth for discussion yourself.

 

Also, I don't really see why you would expect those of the stockwork folks who are not interested in Agility to start such discussions, nor why you would expect them to be interested in the topic of "experts" in any discipline in which they do not have interest.

 

No comparison, if I am to be brutally honest. Everyone else scatters to the winds in the U.S. It quickly becomes a commercial endeavor where you are forced to go to private trainers, buying books, videos, ridiculously expensive seminars, paying through the teeth in certain locales like mine if they have specific ambitions and goals in mind.

 

Yes, it costs money to get good instruction. That is pretty much the case with just about anything one sets out to become proficient at.

 

In many areas of the country, however, Agility folks have groups to train with (although that still entails costs) - clubs, many quite active, groups from classes, or sharing training time, etc . . .

 

I get that hasn't been your experience, but circumstances are quite different in many places around the country.

 

But even training on one's own can work. I train Freestyle on my own. Doing so does present limitations in performance and practice opportunities, but it's important to me, so I make it work. So I do pay to go to workshops sometimes, I take part in online training groups, and focus mostly on improving through the actual work that I do with my dogs instead of looking to outside sources for it.

 

Around here, at least, Agility opportunities are far more widely available.

 

And there is a shutdown in that it seems if I look back on all 36 pages, very few sheepherding folks have any interest in agility . . .

 

And why should they? I'm not interested in stockwork, Flyball, Lure Coursing, Tracking, SAR, Gundog, etc.. It would be quite unrealistic if posters on the board began to insist that I should be interested in any of those disciplines just because my sport partners are Border Collies and people do those things with Border Collies.

 

Serena, you are the one who keeps pointing out that different people have different interests, passions, etc. Not everyone is going to share a passion for Agility, regardless of the role that the Border Collie plays in Agility for so many people.

 

Stockwork folks - correct me if I'm wrong - but I seriously doubt that any of the stockwork people on the board, even those not interested in Agility, would object to Agility topics being discussed by those who are interested in Agility, especially in the sport section of the board.

 

If I am not mistaken (and I may be), the objection to the videos in this thread was an objection to the videos being presented in support of breeding for Agility, not an out and out objection to Agility videos being shared and discussed here.

 

The objection all along in this thread has been to breeding for Agility.

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What I said is that the only way to be absolutely certain a dog was not used for breeding was to spay/neusentiment, that being 100% certain the dog is not bred, holds true because, while a contract could be broken with really no legal ramifications, the surgery is irreversible. The next best suggestion I have read on this thread is a co-ownership arrangement until the surgery takes place when the dog is older.

 

Ack... don't know where I cut to... stupid smart phone...

 

But does ABCA allow for co-ownership? I was always under the impression you weren't able to co-own.

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And neither have you considered my entire financial circumstances. I am the amongst the millions of Americans who cannot even afford any! health insurance. And the monthly prescription costs are phenomenal for me in my situation. All my money goes to my dog, making sure she's got activities which mentally and physically challenge her, gives her as much "working" mentality as possible in the region I live at and how far I can afford gas mileage. Again, read through how extremely expensive things are for me agility-wise and how I cannot afford things...Agility in itself costs $600 per year $720 without any discount per year. and we train with no one to help us save for a kind MACH friend by long distance correspondence in Illinois, the rest of the folks are in England.

Serena,

I, too, am a freelancer, largely because I lost my regular job 2 1/2 years ago and couldn't find another job. I know what it's like to deal with the feast or famine aspect of freelancing. I understand what it means when a client is late paying and so I am late on my own bills. I get the inability to afford health insurance. I can't afford it either. I live in fear that my vehicle will break down and leave me stranded because I won't be able to afford to fix it. I keep thiking I need to sell off some livestock to lower the feed bills.

 

My solution? I don't trial right now, and I travel to trials only if the host is paying me to set sheep. I still do the basic chores around the farm, but I don't spend gas money, entry fees, money for clinics, etc., because my priority has to be paying my bills and putting food on the table.

 

It makes no sense to me for you to cry poor and at the same time talk about the money you spend to be in a dog club and apparently to enter AKC agility trials, the entry fees for which I imagine aren't small.

 

For the cost of a yearly membership in your dog club, you could probably set up agility obstacles at home. Once the initial cost has been incurred, there are no additional costs, unless you want to take lessons with someone occasionally. You don't have to compete at all! You're choosing to spend money on *wants* and not *needs*, so I don't know why you expect the rest of us to have sympathy for your situation. Maybe the money you pay for entry fees and the dog club could even cover the cost of health insurance....

 

Eluane doesn't care whether she does agility or not; she'd be happy doing anything with you, even free stuff, like going for long walks or playing outside.

 

As for the stockworking folks not wanting to watch agility videos, frankly, an agility video, even of the creme de la creme, isn't going to convince working breeders that agility dogs should be bred. Some may see some poetry and skill in videos of dogs running agility courses, but you seemed to be posting the videos to try to prove that agility is somehow the equal of stockwork, despite all the comments disagreeing with that idea. Why, if I don't think agility and stockwork are even remotely comparable, would I want to watch a bunch of agility videos?

 

Like Kristine said, it's not where my interests lie.

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But does ABCA allow for co-ownership? I was always under the impression you weren't able to co-own.

 

Unless I misread the site, you can.

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