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Bridging division between Working Border Collie Tradition vs. “Working” Agility Dogs+Other Disciplines

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3rd no you don't know the typical mindset of agility folk. Maybe some but I don't think that mindset is typical for most. :) at least I don't think so.

 

I concur. And quite a few people on this board do participate in Agility and not one has chimed in to back up this view of the Agility participant mindset. Seriously, if that were typical, it is a sport I would stay far, far away from. My experience has been quite the opposite.

 

And ps... it IS a game for most people(if I have to see another novice handle pissed off at their dog for 1 following their signals and going off course or 2 making baby dogs mistakes or 3 entering a dog not ready for competition and expecting excellent levels from them... Ooo it makes me upset!

 

That bothers me, too, and if the antidote to that is "it's just a game", then I'm all for it. When I say it's more than a game, I am thinking in terms of using Agility to give my dog an opportunity to thoroughly enjoy his or herself, using Agility as a confidence builder, using Agility to build a working partnership between dog and handler, and in terms of the commitment and effort it takes to get to be halfway decent at it!!

 

But from that perspective, I'm definitely with you on that point!!

 

This is a game you are suppose to enjoy with your dog! And what the other thing we get drilled into our heads? That if your dog makes a mistake it most likely your fault?!)

 

The culture of blame is one of the few things I detest about the Agility world. I don't buy into it and I flatly refused to live by it. Sometimes I made mistakes. Sometimes my dog made mistakes. It was all good. Sometimes I made a poor choice in the ring and sometimes my dog made a poor choice in the ring. It was all good. And sometimes my dog was utterly brilliant and I handled her well. Those times were especially good - although some of the "flubs" are among my favorite memories now. Man, I miss her and I miss running with her. And I'm glad I never once "blamed" her for anything and that I didn't waste my energy blaming myself either. We learned from our mistakes together. It was a good way to be.

 

Sorry, another tangent.

 

But, yes, if "it's just a game" can get people off the "blame the handler" or "blame anybody", for that matter, I'm all for it.

 

Blame is useless.

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They look like vultures.......

 

 

 

 

 

"Why yes, yes they do. Actually they are vultures. They are attracted to the smell of dead stuff. Anything DEAD 'round here?"

 

 

Where were you when I needed an awesome comeback?? Haha!

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I have written and rewritten several replies and thoughts throughout these many posts, many scratched because I end up getting downright pissy :). Just spent another bit if time editing...

 

Serena,

 

There is tons of info on agility all over the place. I would suggest that you do more research on dog agility other than coming up with assumptions and beliefs based on your (limited?) AKC experience. Many of your posts and thoughts are very narrow (possibly naive?) and are creating reactions from some within this topic, that are a little scary for the majority of agility folks... those who have placed their relationship with their dog(s) as the main focus to choose agility as a sport to play in.

 

You are wrong to believe that those who

"trains, conducts seminars, competes at World Levels--- it is no longer a "game" then".
Many believe it is a game. They train, teach and compete, making it a game for their dogs! This is not to say that being good at games does not take hard work, dedication, commitment and relationship building within teams.

 

Yes, I love the challenges and I strive to be the very best in agility that I can. My very best teacher (and I have been privileged to work with many fine human teachers) was my dog who taught me the meaning of success in agility...to run connected with my dog(s), to play as a team, to laugh at both of our silly mistakes, exchange smiles at a job well done. She taught me patience with humor, not an easy thing for me. She didn't care what venue we ran in.

 

I think it might be good for you to go and review the history of agility and study the various organizations/venues. Meet other agility lovers/handlers/supporters besides just the "MACH handlers" that you hold in such high esteem, you may be pleasantly surprised and maybe humbled.

 

You support and condone AKC puppy mills, conformation dogs, etc. every time you enter an AKC trial (pay AKC), period.

 

You wrote,

"You see, I only believe in a .0000000000001% of agility champions to be bred, the rest of the agility dogs and folks either need to have a rescue dog or go back to the original working line. I just know that top agility champion folks are gonna want a top agility dog too, so we do need a very strong and proven line for just the agility champions and experts in the agility field to continue their lines in a constructive way."
... This is just weird, wanna be, thinking. Who gets to decide who these agility-god-like-chosen-ones are??? Get over yourself and go play with your dog, without the need to worry about never being good enough to be one of your "MACH handlers". And I am not amused by this reference. Here I go getting pissy again :).

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It is a tragedy to breed just for looks, and yes, this will indeed destroy the entire B.C. breed. You see, I only believe in a .0000000000001% of agility champions to be bred, the rest of the agility dogs and folks either need to have a rescue dog or go back to the original working line. I just know that top agility champion folks are gonna want a top agility dog too, so we do need a very strong and proven line for just the agility champions and experts in the agility field to continue their lines in a constructive way.

 

 

Look at this way. Why is breeding for looks bad? Is it bad to have good looking dogs (beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all that aside)? There is nothing wrong with a good looking dog. But it's wrong to BREED FOR a good looking dog because then you aren't breeding for working ability. That is why breeding for looks will 'indeed destroy the entire B.C. breed' as you stated. Because it breeds away from the working ability.

 

So now ask yourself, how is breeding for agility performance any different? It is STILL not breeding for working ability. It disregards stock working talents in the parents and does not evaluate the stock working ability of the offspring. Same as in a conformation breeding. It will ruin the breed just as surely as breeding for looks.

 

And throwing a working bred dog in there from time to time does NOT preserve or improve upon working ability. Working dog breeders do not breed just any old working dog to another. You have to match up the traits to get a good dog out of it. If you breed two 'nice' dogs together and both are very flanky and wide working, you may get a dog that won't come onto its sheep and can't get the job done. If you breed two dogs that are the top end of the pushness spectrum, you may get a dog who's too hard to train and work with. When you do breed together two dogs that seem a good match, then the next step is you test out the offspring to see how you did and determine if the breeding was good, and if the offspring now deserve to be bred (it does not matter how good the parents are if the match of the two produces a dog with reduced ability). Working ability must be thoroughly tested at each and every generation.

 

There is an art to good breeding, and breeding for agility disregards all of these considerations. The breeding you describe would be 'random' in terms of the working traits. And the outcome of this random breeding would not be fully evaluated, but if the dog is good at agility, it would be bred to make more agility dogs. It doesn't matter if you throw a working bred dog in there every generation, if the breeding is not well planned based on working ability, it doesn't matter how good ONE of the parents is if the other is unknown, random ability and likely has reduced talent (which will certainly be the case after several generations of this type of random breeding).

 

The goal is not to breed dogs with working dogs in the pedigree - the goal is to breed dogs that WORK. Your scenario does not accomplish that goal, therefore it is bad for border collies.

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I have learned a lot from reading information posted on the boards, but sometimes I feel that people are being verbally attacked in the responses to their posts. And this actually saddens me, this apparent hostility. Perhaps it is not intentional, but these responses sometimes appear hostile.

 

My introduction to border collies was through flyball tournaments and then research. The border collie is the breed that opened my eyes to the frailty of AKC and their standards. I probably won't ever own sheep and therefore will probably never train my BC's to herd, however, I do recognize that the herding instinct is innate for the BC. I spend a great deal of time with my BC's in a variety of different training classes looking for a niche that we can both be happy "working" at.

 

When I read Serena's post I was given the impression that she was only trying to convey that not all of us are involved with the herding aspect of the BC but that we still had a voice. I agree that there were many points she made that are open for discussion, but some of the comments made were just not very polite (imo).

I am not an expert on BC's and I appreciate the BC education that I am receiving from this forum and do not wish to ruffle any feathers, but I think Serena had some good points and had nice things to say about people and the information on this forum. Am I wrong to think this way? I hope I am not reprimanded for my post, I really do try to be careful what I say in the posts as I do not want to offend anyone.

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Shawnee,

I think what you're seeing is people's frustration with Serena and her apparently inability to understand why no one agrees with her. After more than 200 posts from various people all stating the same things ad nauseum, it's not surprising that people are getting a bit testy. I simply quit responding, but I have to give credit to the poor souls who keep trying. Maybe it's time for everyone to just leave this thread. It's clear to me that no one is really getting through to the OP anyway, and everything that could possibly be said has already been said.

 

Serena is not asking to have a voice. She's asking for agreement that working border collie breeders should be willing to help some certain percentage of sport breeders (those amazing "MACH handlers") with their breeding programs. And she's asking for the majority to concur with her idea that it's okay to pay money to AKC to register one's dogs and participate in AKC events if only you also petition AKC against puppy mills and conformation showing of border collies. She's being either disingenuous (rationalizing her participation with AKC) or incredibly naive. But after all these posts and her saying the same things over and over again, I fear you're just seeing comments made out of exasperation. Don't take what you see on this thread as the overall tone of this forum.

 

J.

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What points do you feel were good? I think she is very good hearted and sincere. But nobody can quite undertand her bottom line - including those who are involved in AKC agility! And a main tenant of this board is not breeding for anything besides work. So it is very odd to try to get membrs here to agree that breeding for agility may be acceptable in some situations.

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:-) your right maybe blame is the wrong word it helps when your upset though. It takes the focus off the dog after a NQ run and reminds the handler their dog is awesome no matter what. Yikes not sure how to word that better?!

 

I should say its useful in that it helps the human aspect to know what went wrong and sadly when things mess up somehow their is normally a human/handle that can be found at the cause of it. What for me it miscommunications generally.

 

Probability bad analogy but its kind of like gambling. Some do it for fun, other cause their hook, and other make it a career(not sure how just going off what I heard on the tv!). Lol don't know if some gambling involves teams or not... don't think it does. But I know you spend a ton of money on it. at the end of the day I hope everyone who plays knows it still was just a game probability with higher stakes...

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Everyone stop what you are doing and take a good long look at your dog.

 

Ok

 

Now take a good long look at yourself.

 

Ok

 

In this world

 

In all of time and creation

 

This pairing between you and this creature will never ever happen again.

 

You are both....One of a kind

 

Never to be repeated

 

Like snowflakes.

 

 

 

I don't know you, Tea, but I enjoy your posts. You always have something insightful to say. :)

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I have learned a lot from reading information posted on the boards, but sometimes I feel that people are being verbally attacked in the responses to their posts. And this actually saddens me, this apparent hostility. Perhaps it is not intentional, but these responses sometimes appear hostile.

 

I'm going to answer this. I'll probably get myself in hot water for it, but I'm sensing I'm already a pariah on this board anyway (having shown in AKC*) so I may as well go for it.

 

I think most of the users on this forum are truly trying to educate. If you'll read the OP's posts, you will see that she seems a very sweet person, but good golly miss molly she is a frustrating student (no offence Serena). For someone who truly cares about the breed, I can see how this can elicit some real impatience. I mean look, most of these people have written some pretty eloquent and patient responses without having seen any evidence that it's getting through.

 

However, I also think herd mentality brings out a person's true character on these types of forums. I like to think of it in dog terms. Although the following is being challenged by canine behaviorists, it works for my anaology.

 

I know that I can trust my alpha bitches to be fair and authoritative. But there will always be a beta bitch who wants to crank it up a notch and attempt to get the lowest ranked dog to roll over and show its belly. Now, if it were an alpha doing the rolling, she would only 'correct', but wouldn't go in for the kill. However, the beta bitch is a different story. She isn't real secure in her status, so she goes in for the kill in an attempt to ingratiate herself to the alpha.

 

 

 

* I just wanted to spend my life around dogs... That's for any of my moral superiors who wish to charge me with filthy lucre

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Sport

Noun: An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others.

"Sport" comes from the Old French desport meaning "leisure"

Synonyms: fun - game - play - amusement

 

Game

Noun: A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength or luck

Synonyms: play - match - sport

 

Work

Noun: 1. Activity involving physical or mental activity to achieve a purpose or result

Synonyms: job - labor - business - labour - occupation – employment

 

OK, now we have this out of the way.

 

Agility is a sport. On may work very hard at a sport, and one’s work may be connected with a sport, as in coaching, teaching, organizing, etc. But there’s a reason pro ball players are called players. It’s because chasing a ball around on a field in and of itself will not put food on the table. You can’t eat a baseball or a football or a hockey puck.

 

Sport is an artificial construct designed primarily to entertain – the players and the spectators. It may also be instructional, or help build condition and stamina which will translate later into actual work. It may be arduous. It may be difficult, but it is not by definition, work. It usually involves a few rules, a set of skills and varying degrees of motivation. It can generally be done by anyone – with varying degrees of success.

 

Agility is a wonderful sport. It can be enjoyed by any dog-owner team, with any level of skill, in a variety of settings. Properly done it builds rapport between the dog and its handler, and is good exercise. I am all for it. But it is sport – a game – play.

 

Stock work is just that. It’s work. A vocation. A living. People eat sheep and cows and ducks. Unless, of course, the stock work doesn’t get done. Then they don’t eat. Stockwork as expressed by the Border Collie is a very complex set of innate abilities expressed genetically and behaviorally in concert with a judicious amount of training and partnership with a farmer/rancher handler.

 

The abilities of the stock dog and its handler may be exhibited in the sport of sheepdog or cattle dog trials. This is a sport. But there is a difference between the sheepdog trial and the agility trial. The difference is that not only the general characteristics of a talented player of any sport are exhibited, (such as speed, quick reflexes, strength, cooperation with teammates, etc.) but the competency in specific skills needed to perform a task of work are displayed.

 

What makes a Border Collie a Border Collie is the work it was created to do. It is a complex and painstakingly assembled package of components which needs constant monitoring and tweaking to remain present in the stock dog. If one element is absent or present in the wrong amount, the "machine" doesn't run - or it runs poorly. In every generation the myriad pieces are reshuffled and presented in a slightly different form. This is why Border Collies must be bred to function. And they must be bred by people who are intimately familiar with all the pieces and how they affect each other. If all the elements are not present in the right proportion then what you have begins to be something other than a Border Collie. It becomes a mere dog. It may be a smart, sound and healthy dog ready and willing to do your bidding; but it will have ceased to be a Border Collie.

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Work

Noun: 1. Activity involving physical or mental activity to achieve a purpose or result

 

If you think you can get even halfway decent at a dog sport without exactly this, I can attest that such has not been my experience by a long shot!!

 

Work is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Again, I am not talking about breeding here, but just about how some of us actually regard some of these pursuits with our dogs.

 

Agility is a sport. On may work very hard at a sport, and one’s work may be connected with a sport, as in coaching, teaching, organizing, etc. But there’s a reason pro ball players are called players. It’s because chasing a ball around on a field in and of itself will not put food on the table. You can’t eat a baseball or a football or a hockey puck.

 

I can't eat a high school student, either (bleh - not that I want to!!), but teaching them puts food on my table and in my dogs bowls. You might not consider it work, but if you don't - seriously, there is no way you have ever done it!! Work X100!!

 

Sport is an artificial construct designed primarily to entertain – the players and the spectators. It may also be instructional, or help build condition and stamina which will translate later into actual work. It may be arduous. It may be difficult, but it is not by definition, work. It usually involves a few rules, a set of skills and varying degrees of motivation. It can generally be done by anyone – with varying degrees of skill.

 

Again, it's in the eye of the beholder. I consider anything that requires - well, let's see - physical or mental activity to achieve a result - to be a form of work. Maybe not a career. Maybe not primary employment, but work all the same. I consider housecleaning work (that I do not enjoy), I consider sewing to be work (which I do enjoy), and training dogs and working with them to achieve certain goals - yep. Work. Highly enjoyable work, but certainly a form of work.

 

Stock work is just that. It’s work. A vocation. A living. People eat sheep and cows and ducks. Unless, of course, the stock work doesn’t get done. Then they don’t eat. Stockwork as expressed by the Border Collie is a very complex set of innate abilities expressed genetically and behaviorally in concert with a judicious amount of training and partnership with a farmer/rancher handler.

 

It's a certain kind of work for a certain purpose, yes. But doctors also work, and they are not raising sheep and cows and ducks. Teachers work although they are not producing food through that work. Go back to the definition of work and you will find there is no requirement to actually eat anything in order for something to be considered "work".

 

Again, when I use the word "work" in a far broader sense than just "stockwork", it is not to say that Border Collies should be bred for any other purpose. But "work" is not limited to farming, nor even only to those things we do for a living (I certainly don't clean my house for a living!!). I like the definition you presented - physical or mental activity to achieve a result. Yes, becoming proficient at dog sports requires exactly that.

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Nitpicking, the way the term "work" is used on this board is different from the every day definition, and you have been around here long enough (much longer than I ;) ) to know it.

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Thank you

 

 

 

I don't know if I have insight or I'm just crazy.

 

 

 

But someone turned the whole flock in together today.

Ewes and lambs, many rams, unbred ewe lambs and ewes about to lamb.

 

 

 

Sweep and I spent the whole friggen day sorting it out.

 

 

 

And all the time one tune kept playing in my head.

 

 

 

He's Shaun the Sheep

 

He's Shaun the sheep

 

He hangs out with those that never bleat......."

 

 

 

Good God!

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... the way the term "work" is used on this board is different from the every day definition...

Absolutely!

 

Just because something requires *effort* doesn't make it "work" (not the way that "work" is used with regards to the Border Collie). Just because it isn't "the work" doesn't mean someone puts in any less effort, but the effort expended doesn't make something (agility, obedience, any performance sport) "work". "The work" is stockwork.

 

Boy, there have been a lot of really well-written comments on this long and belabored topic - thanks to those who have made the effort to write them and tried to communicate!

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I'm in the market for an agility prospect (rescue? pup?)and this thread has certainly helped to clarify my thoughts.

 

It is my hope that rather than acting as mentors for agility prospect breeding that some of the members of this board will act as mentors to agility folks looking to purchase pups from working lines or acquire washouts from the stockdog world.

 

Serena, I fear that your esteemed MACH handler friends are giving you koolaid. Among other things, my mind is blown that you seem to think that your dog is over the hill at 5.5 years of age. I know several people who have put MACHs and other championship titles on dogs much older than that.

 

Tea, I love your poetry.

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If you think you can get even halfway decent at a dog sport without exactly this, I can attest that such has not been my experience by a long shot!!

 

Work is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Again, I am not talking about breeding here, but just about how some of us actually regard some of these pursuits with our dogs.

 

 

 

I can't eat a high school student, either (bleh - not that I want to!!), but teaching them puts food on my table and in my dogs bowls. You might not consider it work, but if you don't - seriously, there is no way you have ever done it!! Work X100!!

 

 

 

Again, it's in the eye of the beholder. I consider anything that requires - well, let's see - physical or mental activity to achieve a result - to be a form of work. Maybe not a career. Maybe not primary employment, but work all the same. I consider housecleaning work (that I do not enjoy), I consider sewing to be work (which I do enjoy), and training dogs and working with them to achieve certain goals - yep. Work. Highly enjoyable work, but certainly a form of work.

 

 

 

It's a certain kind of work for a certain purpose, yes. But doctors also work, and they are not raising sheep and cows and ducks. Teachers work although they are not producing food through that work. Go back to the definition of work and you will find there is no requirement to actually eat anything in order for something to be considered "work".

 

Again, when I use the word "work" in a far broader sense than just "stockwork", it is not to say that Border Collies should be bred for any other purpose. But "work" is not limited to farming, nor even only to those things we do for a living (I certainly don't clean my house for a living!!). I like the definition you presented - physical or mental activity to achieve a result. Yes, becoming proficient at dog sports requires exactly that.

Little testy, eh, Rootbeer?

 

If you read the whole post, (yeah I know, too much work) You may have noted that I said the following:

"It may also be instructional, or help build condition and stamina which will translate later into actual work. It may be arduous. It may be difficult, but it is not by definition, work." I laid out the definition for purposes of this illustration.

 

I'm sure you work hard with your dogs. OK?

 

The main activities under discussion in this thread are agility (and other sports) and stock work. So I don't think I need to go into how hard doctors, mechanics, systems analysts work.

 

I'm sure you work very hard with your students too. OK?

 

In point of fact, I think you (and the greater pert of the regulars on this forum) are well aware of the qualitative difference between dogs bred for stock work and dogs bred for sport. But the OP still, apparently, is not. Hence my (apparently offensive) attempt to clarify the picture.

 

I am very sorry if you felt demeaned or trivialized by my post. It was not my intention to demean or trivialize anyone with my post. Sheesh! :blink:

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Oh tea, have you ever seen shawn the sheep the cartoon? It's the best! I specially like the "fat" sheep. When they pull all sorts of things out of her wool.

It's my favorite grandson watching netflix show!

 

A thought on games and sports...

Let's take a look at professional sport players. They make it a profession but its still a sport. A game. they make crap loads of money and it is their life. But still a sport or game.

 

Working sheep or livestock can be called a game if you put akc into the mix.

Even usbcha trials verge on a game. It's about demonstrating what traits their dog has for real stock work and showcasing a particular dogs talents and genetics, helping other stockmen to make good breeding crosses by watching the dogs and seeing things they'd like to introduce into their lines.

Or its just great fun to share in our passions for these dogs with other like folk.

 

Sad thing is, poor Serenna is not able to understand what we are trying to help her learn. You can only learn what you are ready to learn.

 

Many a time on sheep I'll have an ah-ha moment. I might of had that lesson many times before that day, but until I am ready to learn that lesson it will just be words in my head.

You can only receive what you are ready to receive.

 

I hope Serenna will be ready someday.

 

Typed on my phone, excuse the extra words and auto correct. :$

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"He's Shaun the sheep

He hangs out with those that never bleat......."

 

 

 

Oh geeze, someone else who has those videos! We're corrupting our granddaughter with them!

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Little testy, eh, Rootbeer?

 

Nope. You? :D

 

If you read the whole post, (yeah I know, too much work) You may have noted that I said the following:

"It may also be instructional, or help build condition and stamina which will translate later into actual work. It may be arduous. It may be difficult, but it is not by definition, work." I laid out the definition for purposes of this illustration.

 

There we must agree to disagree. By the definition that you posted, learning, building condition and stamina - all to achieve a specific purpose - is, indeed, work. Even if the "work" in question is not one's profession or livelihood.

 

The main activities under discussion in this thread are agility (and other sports) and stock work. So I don't think I need to go into how hard doctors, mechanics, systems analysts work.

 

And yet, the fact that doctors, mechanics, systems analysts, etc. do, in fact, work, does illustrate that the definition of work does, in fact, extend far beyond stock work. Yes, farming is work - hard work, absolutely. But there are countless other pursuits that are also work, or consist of a work component, whether their ultimate purpose is livelihood, career, or on the side endeavor.

 

Considering Agility in the bigger picture, if one wishes to become proficient at it, work is going to be involved on the part of both the dog and the handler. No, not stockwork. But work, by the definition that you provided, all the same.

 

Hence my (apparently offensive) attempt to clarify the picture.

 

I'm not offended in the least. Sorry you read my direct response to you as offended. It was not intended that way, nor have I taken offense.

 

You and I disagree on the application of the definition of "work" to dog sports. We're discussing that disagreement. No need to read offense into that.

 

I am very sorry if you felt demeaned or trivialized by my post. It was not my intention to demean or trivialize anyone with my post. Sheesh! :blink:

 

Again, I thought we were having a discussion of a difference in point of view. I don't know why you read those emotions into my last post, but I assure you that no such feelings were in play.

 

I will try harder to nicey nice up my responses (although I'll admit I didn't with this one). :P :P :P

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Gloria, in agility, the border collie intuits and reads us instead of the sheep. The dog must make the decision to absolutely!!!! obey us, and often they have to discern and sift out our mistakes in NANO-SECONDS! They do independent logic, because they understand how critical speed is to us and how to get that path moving in as fast and as brilliantly as they can. Any wrong signal, the border collie has to break and switch over to recorrect the mistake we've made...One of the biggest test of control is the running contacts. Easy to run with that blazing speed, but one or more feet have to touch the yellow zones for all contact equipment. Many B.Cs have such a long stride, they actually have to remember! and force/break time that instant strike on the contact zone.

I can't believe I'm responding. rolleyes.gif Serena, I have a border collie with running contacts. He also competes at the Open level in USBCHA sheepdog trials. Let me tell you, the discipline and impulse control required for his running contacts (or anything to do with agility really) is absolutely minuscule compared to what he needs when he's penning, or getting ready to sort off sheep, or even just holding the sheep off while I put hay down. You want fast and brilliant? Watch a good dog cast out for his sheep which are so far away, they're just dots on the horizon.

 

Running contacts, independent weave poles, obstacle discrimination ... all that can be taught with toys, cookies, and repetitions. They're just dog tricks. Yes, it's pretty when it's all strung together in a course, but almost any breed or mixed breed can do it. No matter how good a border collie is at agility, it should NEVER be the criteria for which it is bred.

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Nitpicking, the way the term "work" is used on this board is different from the every day definition, and you have been around here long enough (much longer than I ;) ) to know it.

 

And yet, when speaking in an Agility context (or any dog sport context) the "work" that goes into it is the every day definition kind.

 

Of course, there is a distinction in type of work and they are certainly not the same thing.

 

But the idea that "it's just a game so there is no work involved" just doesn't ring true to me based on my own experience and the work that I see my fellow participants putting into training and preparing their dogs for performance sports.

 

Not that the fact that there is a real type of work involved means that Border Collies should be bred for sport - I'm not saying that at all.

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Please can we drop the "what is work?" discussion? Hasn't that one been discussed TO DEATH here in the past? No one is going to change their position on it, so why not let it drop? Please, please, please! It's getting almost as bad as Serena's insistence that the way to change AKC is to pester them with petitions.

 

J.

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Nitpicking, the way the term "work" is used on this board is different from the every day definition, and you have been around here long enough (much longer than I ;) ) to know it.

Yup, yup. All true. I do. But there are those who don't - folks new to the whole idea of work, stock work, and sport training work. (All of which, yes may entail various amounts of plain old generic work.)

 

Just trying to draw a picture for someone who is grappling with that issue of sports dog/ stock dog in re breeding.

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Please can we drop the "what is work?" discussion? Hasn't that one been discussed TO DEATH here in the past? No one is going to change their position on it, so why not let it drop? Please, please, please! It's getting almost as bad as Serena's insistence that the way to change AKC is to pester them with petitions.

 

In my opinion, the topic is very relevant to the discussion at hand, especially in light of the definition that Geonni presented, which I do not recall discussion on before. Must have been in a thread I missed (or I just don't remember). I don't expect anyone to change their position on the matter any more than I am going to change my own, so I do disagree with your comparison between this particular discussion and the OP pushing for petitions.

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