Bridging division between Working Border Collie Tradition vs. “Working” Agility Dogs+Other Disciplines

[KelliePup]

Serena,

 

First of all, let me explain a fundamental point about communication: the particular words you use matter. English has been called a hard language because a single word can have several different definitions, and the context does not always give the reader a clue as to which particular definition is being used. For example, straight out of the dictionary:

 

mere·ly

   [meer-lee] Show IPA adverb 1. only as specified and nothing more; simply: merely a matter of form. 2. Obsolete . a. without admixture; purely. b. altogether; entirely.

 

 

sim·ply

   [sim-plee] Show IPA adverb 1. in a simple manner; clearly and easily. 2. plainly; unaffectedly. 3. sincerely; artlessly: to speak simply as a child. 4. merely; only: It is simply a cold. 5. unwisely; foolishly: If you behave simply toward him, you're bound to be betrayed.

 

That's where miscommunication starts. Certain adverbs and verbs seldom leave room for exact interpretation, making language an impure science by all accounts. The adverb "merely" gives the connotation that you think little of either your abilities or the abilities of others in the agility ring, unless you have achieved a MACH title, because you are "nothing more" than a hobbiest and pet owner. Little things like that, whether we consciously recognize it or not, affect the psyche and limit our ability and potential. So please, take care when choosing your words, not only to avoid miscommunication, but also for your own mental health. You are obviously putting a lot of work into your dog and agility, and that makes you more than merely, or simply, a hobbiest and pet owner. That much work makes you exceptional, regardless of the titles you have achieved.

 

My next question, logically, is why you would choose to have anything to do with an organization in which the members think so little of the work you do with your dog. To me personally, it is depressing to be around people who look down on me and my dog. It is also an attitude which I have only come across at AKC shows. When I was younger and naive, I went to several AKC shows to learn, and I met cold shoulders everywhere I turned. Not one wanted to share the smallest piece of advice or kind word for my dog, and I was actively snubbed when I proudly declared I had rescued both a border collie and a border collie X boxer. I turned me off competition period; however, I found the welcome I had desired in the UKC. I took Maverick, my mix, to compete in Rally, and I was very nervous at first to tell people that it was my first show ever. I was completely blown away by the reception Mav and I received at that show. Not only were we welcomed with open arms, but everyone I talked to was more than happy to give me pointers on stepping into the ring.

 

On a side note along the same lines, how can there possibly be "prestige" attached to a title that any pure bred dog can achieve? The favorite "comparison" I've heard involves someone teaching their golden retriever to herd. Sure, the commands are known, but what if a ewe or ram decide not to cooperate? I have yet to see or hear of a golden making a decision on their own to get the sheep back in line. Goldens just weren't bred for that.

 

Okay, I have to clear the air for a moment. My initial post concerning SAR was my nicest possible rendition to be offended by your claim of the AKC agility being the only practical form. So, I gave some examples to how practical UKC agility obstacles are to other disciplines, such as SAR. I never said we should breed border collies for SAR work. Quite frankly, it isn't necessary. Specific search and/or rescue breeds already exist and are very good at their jobs; in fact, they are supreme in their field (and I'm not talking just about labs here either. Try the Newfoundland and the Bloodhound, or other breed that was bred to hunt and weather the outdoors).

 

The border collie is the supreme stock dog. There is no way to test what makes the border collie the supreme stock dog in the agility ring; therefore, I have to agree that the act of breeding border collies for agility is deplorable because you cannot gauge the dog's stock sense in the agility ring.

 

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here, but the only possible bridge I could see even remotely being formed to accepting a sport dog for breeding is if the owner sent the dog to an experienced stock dog breeder/handler to be evaluated for a prearranged length of time and money. At the end of that period, the owner of the sport dog, no matter what titles and/or placements have been earned on the dog, would have to accept the stock dog breeder's mandate on whether the dog should or should not be bred. Frankly, I don't see that happening.

[WildFlower]

Breeding for function over form AND the meaning of words. For us, the meaning of border collie is not a black and white dog (or tri or some other color) with a certain build, ear set, and gait; nor is it an intelligent dog that can excel at many games and endeavors. The meaning of border collie is a dog that works livestock (we backup this philosophy with the ROM process). In order to maintain this meaning, these dogs should be only bred for working livestock. Breeding for some other function or for form no longer falls under the meaning of border collie. These other breeding goals only add dogs that look like border collies, replicas of the real thing, which are diluting the meaning of border collie. The problem is that one cannot tell the difference between a replica and an authentic border collie in the absence of livestock.

 

^^ This. Excellent post Mark. (And many others have had wonderful posts too.) But this really isolates the fundamental difference in the way "working people" view the border collie. (Underline and bold emphasis of last sentence added by me.)

 

I am sure that this is falling on deaf ears, but Serena, I really hope that you take the time or make the effort to take your dog to sheep or go to a USBCHA sheep dog trial. Nothing but that experience will help you to see and/or feel for yourself what so many people have thoughtfully and eloquently tried to convey to you in their posts. IMO, one of the most beautiful things to see is a border collie working stock in person.

 

ETA: Also, reading the Dog Wars by Donal McCaig may help you understand the position held by so many on this board.

[Root Beer]

That's where miscommunication starts. Certain adverbs and verbs seldom leave room for exact interpretation, making language an impure science by all accounts. The adverb "merely" gives the connotation that you think little of either your abilities or the abilities of others in the agility ring, unless you have achieved a MACH title, because you are "nothing more" than a hobbiest and pet owner. Little things like that, whether we consciously recognize it or not, affect the psyche and limit our ability and potential. So please, take care when choosing your words, not only to avoid miscommunication, but also for your own mental health.

 

Very, very well said.

 

I can't say I have any respect at all for the "MACH Handlers" that you know who have led you (Serena) to think in terms of being "merely a hobbyist"' or "nothing".

 

I don't believe that sort of elitism has a proper place in Agility. It is, in fact, far more characteristic attitude associated with conformation which you (Serena) are so vehemently against. Irony.

[Pam Wolf]

I'll admit to not having read the entire thread (computer troubles kept me offline a few days) and I hesitate to address the OP. But while doing activities with the Border Collie is acceptable breeding for those traits that enable these dogs to do all those tasks -breeding for livestock working ability at a high level) is what has made the BC so desirable for dog sports. But dog sports are man made tasks which require no natural 'instincts' but rather a good trainer that can use and improve on the dog's natural drives for a task that is simply 'trained'.

 

Breeding should be for livestock working ability which entails many traits like biddability, trainability, athleticism, stamina (both mental and physical) as well as some that can only be discerned by working the dogs on livestock.

[Gloria Atwater]

Sorry, Gloria, but Serena has given you inaccurate information on the ETS issue in her statement that dogs outgrow it or that handling causes it. ....

Whether or not there is a genetic component to the syndrome is unknown. And, no, Serena does not have information about it that those who are actually studying the issue have somehow missed as they collect information, study individual dogs and groups of dogs, and work with veterinarians, etc.

Thanks, RootBeer, for the clarification. I thought as much, and I'm glad to know that actual scientific thought is being given to the issue. I didn't mean to go on a tangent! I'm just kind of at wit's end how to reach this woman, and I used "ETS" as an example of a problem that apparently exists only in agility, and that might be negated entirely if people stuck to breeding working border collies. Which may or may not be true, but that's a conversation I'm not equipped to have! I don't want to side-track this discussion onto any more tangents than it's already taken.

 

Thanks again! Now on with our regular programming.

 

~ Gloria

[Root Beer]

Thanks, RootBeer, for the clarification. I thought as much, and I'm glad to know that actual scientific thought is being given to the issue. I didn't mean to go on a tangent! I'm just kind of at wit's end how to reach this woman, and I used "ETS" as an example of a problem that apparently exists only in agility, and that might be negated entirely if people stuck to breeding working border collies.

 

True - I definitely didn't want to go on a tangent, either. But neither did I want you to base your understanding on a personal opinion that is significantly different from that of those who have the most knowledge of the issue.

 

So, sidetrack over . . .!!!

[ejano]

....

 

When I was younger and naive, I went to several AKC shows to learn, and I met cold shoulders everywhere I turned. Not one wanted to share the smallest piece of advice or kind word for my dog, and I was actively snubbed when I proudly declared I had rescued both a border collie and a border collie X boxer...

 

The local AKC club was downright snooty when I thought I might try agility and brought Robin to be measured. "He's not registered," they said. But they loved his striking red tri-color coat!

I don't question the dedication of agility handlers or their devotion to their dogs. But, as has been pointed out several times on this thread, the traits that make a great agility dog all ready exist in the working Border Collie.

 

Years ago we considered buying a Newfoundland pup for our son - it seemed like a good match. He loved the water, was a Red Cross swim assistant instructor, working toward Water Safety instructor - his summer job from the time he was 14 through his second year of college. The idea of training a lifesaving dog was an appealing outgrowth of his current interests. Then, our investigation revealed the breed's monumental health problems: short life span, orthopedic, eye, kidney, cancer - the list goes on.

 

The local SPCA used to show pound puppy videos on the local access cable channel every Saturday morning. My husband spotted our Lucky Girl, a 6 month stray BC mix and an hour later we were at the SPCA, filling out papers. Aside from her annual health checkups, I can't recall a time when Lucky Girl needed vet care for a health problem until her final days - she lived to be nearly 14. To this day, Lucky Girl remains the smartest, cleverest dog we've ever owned (including the three BCs who currently reside with us ) -- the only thing she didn't like to do was, ironically, swim. Our son could never convince her to go into the water.

 

We were the lucky ones to have her in our lives, as we are to have another SPCA adoptee - Ladybug who has been equally healthy - she's 12 now and the only necessary trips to the vet have been for her routine care - annual checkups and shots. Robin and Brodie now over two years old come from working lines and show no inclination to be anything other than healthy, active dogs who have the BC work ethic, interest and ability. It is a joy to see them develop their skills and to participate in working stock.

 

Why would anyone deliberately seek to take a healthy breed into an organization whose culture deliberately encourages the breeding of unsound animals? Follow the money, a wise man once told me...

Sometimes you just can't change an organization from within.

 

Liz

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

Everyone, thank you so much for still trying to talk "sense" and logic into me, and the ones who have been very, very and extremely patient with me!!! amongst them, Gloria, Eileen, Root Beer, even though I continually frustrate people unintentionally. As I explained on the boards, now that Eileen clearly wrote and re-emphasized:

 

 

Eileen sums it:

 

2. It is wrong to register border collies with the AKC or to support the AKC by entering their events.

 

3. It is important that these positions be publicly stated and defended.

 

 

These are HER BOARDS that she very lovingly and in very dedicated fashion set up for the sakes of border collies as a breed, and these boards are the most important board for B.Cs in the entire nation. Period. No mistaking this....And her ultimate care in defending the Border Collie are for very important, critical reasons. I understand WHY! but my fear is that if you exclude the very few, the very special select top agility folks from breeding; that exclusion are indeed going to completely shatter and deteriorate the agility line. The Nationwide obsession for agility and the temptation to breed indiscriminately will indeed lead people off the wrong path. So that is why I still want to include the very top-notch agility champions, who've got proven decades of experience, titles, and 1st place, 2nd place and 3rd place rankings, the breadth of expertise in their field, relations with friends who are sheepherders to still be able to go back and refresh the lines with real working border collies. Otherwise breeding agility to agility is gonna go WHACK!!!! If the very top people in the field are not allowed to breed, then breeding amongst ourselves is gonna be a total disaster zone. The very top agility champion handler wants both a top agility dog and one that has the special wonderful gifts/personality of a good solid working border collie-- the rest of us agility folk NO BREEDING!!!! That is where I am totally frustrating everyone too. EVERYONE has clearly stated the philosophy of these boards, but I know that the field of agility also needs a very gifted agility Border Collie too. The brilliant Champion agility dog only comes once in a blue moon. The champion handler/breeder do not want to lose their line either...They want to preserve their brilliant champion dogs' genes....That is why it is crucial for us to be able to go back to a really good working dog lineage and yet keep the champion agility line. And Diane, saying that the well-respected instructor at my club has made the deplorable decision to breed still is condemning her, and that is what makes me sad. I am not lucky enough to be her student or my MACH friend's local student (he lives in Chicago), but at AKC trials I always see her helping every one of her students, evaluating, taking notes for them, coaching them, spending hours with them.

 

Sadly I am a zebra. I have strong black and white feelings all mixed up....An odd mix of idealism and part "delusion". Hey, a nobody like me who is thinking about daring to ask right in the middle of her AKC trials, about petitions and puppy mill issues to other AKC handlers is ummm, not exactly in the "norm"

 

Gloria, I never ever watch AKC trialing ever! you don't have to worry about this. It was the original poster who mentioned the 60 feet away, that I was going by. I was just being an idiot, and rushing out my words from what he or she was saying. I was only talking about 60 feet when I am watching the sheepherders round up their sheep in the fenced corral of Maja's videos for example. Obviously the sheep are going to be even further away once they are out on the field. The OP mentioned 60 feet and I parroted the distance. Root Beer has witnessed plenty of my rushed out words and me causing an unintentional uproar, because I was on a loop or getting very easily distracted and helter-skelter (my learning disability does this a lot! - sorry folks, please bear with me!) Gloria, my point was that even a city slicker/Border Collie owner wants to try as hard as we can to encourage our pups to be the smartest pup that they can be. Long distance directional verbals was the closest thing I could come up with as a "city slicker" I'd stand at the very base of the hillside region and Eluane would be positioned way off into the tree section where the hills ended at, for example. Little puppy games like this....

 

Gloria, in agility, the border collie intuits and reads us instead of the sheep. The dog must make the decision to absolutely!!!! obey us, and often they have to discern and sift out our mistakes in NANO-SECONDS! They do independent logic, because they understand how critical speed is to us and how to get that path moving in as fast and as brilliantly as they can. Any wrong signal, the border collie has to break and switch over to recorrect the mistake we've made...One of the biggest test of control is the running contacts. Easy to run with that blazing speed, but one or more feet have to touch the yellow zones for all contact equipment. Many B.Cs have such a long stride, they actually have to remember! and force/break time that instant strike on the contact zone.

 

Agility won't ever reach the deep level that sheepherding requires, no question about that. Sheepherding is the most brilliant, most majestic means of expression for Border Collies. Period. I agree wholeheartedly on this. But agility with a brilliant Border Collie is beautiful to watch too, even though the rest of Border Collie owners understand that sheepherding is by far the most outstanding. You get a regular person off the street and their jaws always drop while watching the top World Agility Champion Border Collie and handler win on the field....

 

Ziggsmom we are both AKC involved which the B.C. Boards are against, if you read Eileen's point #2. So both of us since we are AKC involved do need to petition against puppy mills and the conformation issue to AKC, wouldn't you think? We have the responsibility to...Not to add pressure I still say petitioning is still important because of principle. I still have a hope that someday this might work, at least against the puppy mills....If it worked in England, it can work for us. Or at least we can join the Humane Society in knowing where to sign a petition to add more voices. If anyone is interested I can do more research on what is the biggest, most politically active foe of puppy mills that does petition...

[Eileen Stein]

my fear is that if you exclude the very few, the very special select top agility folks from breeding; that exclusion are indeed going to completely shatter and deteriorate the agility line. The Nationwide obsession for agility and the temptation to breed indiscriminately will indeed lead people off the wrong path. So that is why I still want to include the very top-notch agility champions, who've got proven decades of experience, titles, and 1st place, 2nd place and 3rd place rankings to still be able to go back and refresh the lines with real working border collies. Otherwise breeding agility to agility is gonna go WHACK!!!! If the very top people in the field are not allowed to breed, then breeding amongst ourselves is gonna be a total disaster zone.

 

Serena, let's try this from another angle. You do realize, don't you, that the opinions expressed here are not binding on anyone. We cannot enforce our own beliefs (no breeding except for working ability) any more than you can enforce yours (the top MACH handlers with placements can breed dogs untested for working ability, so long as they don't do it too often). Any agility person, accomplished or not, can breed any way they want, and they will surely be able to find a real working border collie person somewhere who will oblige them with a stud or a pup.

 

The most we can do is try to persuade.

[KelliePup]

Why in the world would it be okay to breed a border collie with no stock sense just because s/he is an agility champion? That is not a border collie, and, even if you did breed to a wonderful stock dog, the pups' border collie traits would be diluted and destroy over a 150 years of careful breeding selection that brought the border collie into existence. We love the breed and are trying to better it to work stock, not dilute those natural traits.

 

I can understand agility people wanting their lines preserved, but you're asking us to abandon our principles for it. Put the agility champion on stock and then we'll talk depending how s/he does. Again, that's only possible bridge I can see.

 

There is no "yes, I agree with everything you're saying, but..." In this, there is no middle road. Walk one side or the other side, or squish just like grape.

 

ps. Seriously, read "The Dog Wars." You can order it here.

[KelliePup]

Serena, let's try this from another angle. You do realize, don't you, that the opinions expressed here are not binding on anyone. We cannot enforce our own beliefs (no breeding except for working ability) any more than you can enforce yours (the top MACH handlers with placements can breed dogs untested for working ability, so long as they don't do it too often). Any agility person, accomplished or not, can breed any way they want, and they will surely be able to find a real working border collie person somewhere who will oblige them with a stud or a pup.

 

The most we can do is try to persuade.

 

Well said And isn't that freedom how the "border jack" came to be? Breeding for a small, fast flyball dog?

 

We're very close to getting to the definition of insanity now...

[SS Cressa]

I am not sure what petitioning AKC will do... were you around for AKC agilitt invitational I think last year? There was an up roar over how awful the agility folks were treated. You are talking about the top dogs from all breeds! I am sure someone else can fill you in on the details but it boil down to agility people left in the rain and having their dogs soaked in the kennel area while the conformation people were left in the dry inside. I might be wrong but I am pretty sure the officials even saw the conditions and not much was change.

Its not new that agility is the money maker for AKC... lol or at least that is what I am told from the clubs. Yet they-the official- could care less about what we say.

ETA:To me If you want to be taken seriously the only thing I can think of that would make them listen is "stage a boycott ". If you were able to convince the majority of competitors to boycott AKC for a month I could see them possible listening to us. But that isnt feasible.

[OurBoys]

It was the original poster who mentioned the 60 feet away, that I was going by. I was just being an idiot, and rushing out my words from what he or she was saying.

Serena, YOU are the original poster.

 

We're very close to getting to the definition of insanity now...

Yep.

[JaderBug]

I understand WHY! but my fear is that if you exclude the very few, the very special select top agility folks from breeding; that exclusion are indeed going to completely shatter and deteriorate the agility line.

 

Emphasis mine. Agility "LINE" should not exist!! Period!! Breeding for something like agility is superficial and does not have stable traits. If you love the Border Collie, you love it because it is a working dog. That's what it came from, that's what it is. Not bred for games.

 

Gloria, in agility, the border collie intuits and reads us instead of the sheep. The dog must make the decision to absolutely!!!! obey us, and often they have to discern and sift out our mistakes in NANO-SECONDS! They do independent logic, because they understand how critical speed is to us and how to get that path moving in as fast and as brilliantly as they can. Any wrong signal, the border collie has to break and switch over to recorrect the mistake we've made...One of the biggest test of control is the running contacts. Easy to run with that blazing speed, but one or more feet have to touch the yellow zones for all contact equipment. Many B.Cs have such a long stride, they actually have to remember! and force/break time that instant strike on the contact zone.

 

This whole statement completely and utterly trivializes the poetry that is a dog working livestock. A dog running through an agility course responding to its HANDLER is NOT equal to a dog doing real work with a handler AND livestock (each of which has a mind of its own and the dogs must account for that, not something that can be trained) AND having to make decisions on its own. Not the same. Not even close.

 

Arrghh this is just painful.

[Gloria Atwater]

That is where I am totally frustrating everyone too. EVERYONE has clearly stated the philosophy of these boards, but I know that the field of agility also needs a very gifted agility Border Collie too. The brilliant Champion agility dog only comes once in a blue moon. The champion handler/breeder do not want to lose their line either...They want to preserve their brilliant champion dogs' genes....That is why it is crucial for us to be able to go back to a really good working dog lineage and yet keep the champion agility line.

 

And there, Serena, is where you and the majority of posters here will disagree. Have disagreed. Vehemently, eloquently and at the rate of several thousand words, now. Agility breeders want to preserve their champion agility border collie lines ... fine. Have at it. But for whatever reason, champion agility dogs apparently can't come from purely working lines.

 

Therefore, agility breeders do not, will not, cannot preserve or be presumed to preserve the innate, inborn, instinctive heritage of the true, stock-working border collie. I don't care how many agility credentials the breeder has, it's the dog's working "credentials" that count.

 

And no matter how amazing, jaw-dropping, incredible and awe-inspiring agility is, by NOT breeding specifically to preserve those inherited stock-working traits ... agility breeders are ultimately diluting them.

 

And that's that, and that's that. There is no more we here can tell you.

 

 

~ Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

We're very close to getting to the definition of insanity now...

 

Yeah, I'm going to go take my meds and lie down, now. My head hurts from banging it on this brick wall.

 

~ Gloria

[cjohanna]

 

Agility won't ever reach the deep level that sheepherding requires, no question about that. Sheepherding is the most brilliant, most majestic means of expression for Border Collies.

 

Oh for the love of heaven -- sheepherding is the WORK of the Border Collie.

 

Agility is a flipping GAME, and you are actually comparing a dog learning to collect before taking a jump, to the manuevers of a working stockdog on a ranch or farm? And you don't even seem to see the utter absurdity of your 'argument'?

 

I've done agility for 18 years. EVERY dog has to learn to do the things you list, read the handler, blah blah blah. It's no more breathtaking when a Border Collie does it than when a German Shepherd does it, or a Bichon Frise.

 

I've been trying to learn sheepherding for about 18 months now. It's so different from any dog sport, from anything I've ever done with any dog, that it's like being in another galaxy. Everyone who posted in this thread on that topic is 1000% right. My Border Collie does agility because it's fun; he works sheep because he has to, because it's in him, because IT commands HIM.

 

Your comparisons are silly. And please, quit talking about BREEDING for agility, when there are countless BCs and other dogs in shelters and rescues who would be wizard agility dogs if they had homes. Rescue a dog, Serena. Put a sock in the silly talk and do something to help a dog. It would give you a very different outlook on the absurd topic of "breeding championship agility lines."

[alligande]

Everyday I have been sucked into this revolving thread, it has become "Ground Hog Day".

 

The dogs we love are sheepdogs, bred for one purpose to work stock. If like myself we choose to repurpose them that is fine, but the only criteria that should be used to breed is are they good stock dogs, otherwise they will no longer be sheepdogs.

 

Great agility dogs are the result of great trainers, and of course some natural drive. Bottom line is results in agility are based on excellent training and handling not genetics.

 

On a personal note, there are very few things more amazing to me than watching a dog work sheep, not in at a trial but up on the hills, where you can see them think and problem solve and really work as a team with their shepherd to get the job done.

[Smokjbc]

To sum up....

 

 

We don't need agility breeders to keep the border collie doing what it's meant to do.

 

They need us. Why else did AKC keep the studbook open?

 

IF anyone is going to "bridge the division", it's going to have to be these MACH top whats-its handling their dogs in USBCHA Open to an acceptable level and THEN breeding them. That's the only way I can see harmony on this subject.

 

As far as the tragedy of the shattered agility line goes....the sooner, the better.

[stockdogranch]

Serena: I specifically asked you to directly address this issue back on page 8. You still have not. So, here it is again:

 

The missing piece that is at the bottom of all this--the foundation on which all this is built, is the relationship between the dog and the livestock. The truly well bred dog will, inherently, have a feel for its stock. It will read the stock and respond appropriately with just enough power/presence (whatever you choose to call it) for that particular group of stock on that particular day. The truly well bred dog does not have to be taught "pace"--it will automatically adjust for the stock it is working at that moment. The truly well bred dog will know when it needs to give a nip at the heels to get the stock to move, and will also know when it does NOT need to do so. This underlying feel for/reading of stock is of such paramount importance that I can't stress it enough. AND, this is absolutely GENETIC.

 

Please address this issue, and how you breed "top agility dogs" and get this as a result,

 

A

[Tea]

Well to me, this is a warning to all working breeders to be very very careful.

[OurBoys]

(my learning disability does this a lot!....)

You don't have a learning disability, Serena. A person with a true learning disability will at least ask questions and TRY to learn and you've done neither. To say you have something when you don't is an insult to those who do. Your problem is you're close-minded. Your agenda when you started this thread wasn't to "bridge a division". It was to try and get as many stockdog people as possible to "cross over" and accept the AKC. That's why you refuse to answer certain posts, especially the ones that recommended you read "The Dog Wars", isn't it?

 

I'm not a stockdog person so this probably doesn't mean anything to you but I HATE the AKC. They are a despicable, money-grubbing organization. They don't help dogs, they ruin dogs, just like you want to ruin the border collie. Everytime I'm reminded they are out there I hope and pray for their downfall.

[JaderBug]

Agility is a flipping GAME, and you are actually comparing a dog learning to collect before taking a jump, to the manuevers of a working stockdog on a ranch or farm? And you don't even seem to see the utter absurdity of your 'argument'?

 

...

 

Your comparisons are silly. And please, quit talking about BREEDING for agility, when there are countless BCs and other dogs in shelters and rescues who would be wizard agility dogs if they had homes. Rescue a dog, Serena. Put a sock in the silly talk and do something to help a dog. It would give you a very different outlook on the absurd topic of "breeding championship agility lines."

 

Well put, cjohanna.

 

Serena, has ANY of this clicked with you? With all these people saying the same things to you (10 pages worth!!) have you had even the slightest of an "Aha!" moment?

 

I guess I would conclude that you are trodding through this with blinders on because one day you hope to achieve that elusive MACH status and that you would at that point like to breed your own agility line. You're looking for justification and a pat on the back, you're looking for a blessing from the working world. Nothing else explains your complete lack of absorbing anything we've said.

[RoseAmy]

Breeding dogs with champion agility lines to working breed dogs to get a better border collie and mantain the agility line????

 

I GET IT!!!

 

The op started this thread as a joke right??? I mean that's the only thing that would make sense. She been pulling our legs and having fun with us.

 

In case you aren't joking..let me put it like this..you can take an apple.. cover it with an orange peel..you can call it an orange BUT that doesn't make it an orange it's still an apple. You can breed all the "agility champions" you want you may have a black and white dog..but you WON'T have a border collie..no matter you call it.

[SS Cressa]

I think she is just inexperienced and new. So it still is all idealistic. :-) I was very idealistic when I first started. I hope now I am more realistic but it took/takes time and experience. I use to think the MACH was the end all to end all titles. But after competing and helping out at trials. I think I've raised my standards a bit. And its not the titles that count per say its the team and their relationship that matters.