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I haven't been on here in quite awhile, but thought I would drop on in and catch up with you all! I have a brag on my two puppies. I have a 6 month old female that I am showing in breed. Took her and my 8 month old boy to a fun match a couple of weekends ago. My little girl won the breed and the herding group. My boy got his CGC that day as well. It was a total surprise that he would pass as he has only had 2 obedience classes. Well, what can I say, he is a BC!

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Congratulations on the CGC!

 

Just so you know, conformation showing isn't something that gets congratulated or supported on these boards.

 

That is just fine with me, but I do both confirmation as well as obedience, and agility as well as confirmation. I have been showing in confirmation for over 30 years, so it is natural for me to post that as well. I find absolutely nothing wrong with that part of competition. My breed girl gets the finest care and does play at agility, disc dog and obedience also. I know some of the top obedience dogs in CA that show in both as well.

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Chi-Ann's Mom,

 

While it is great you do things with your dogs, please learn more about the working aspect of this breed. It is the proper breeding of these dogs for working livestock that enables them to be so very versatile. Selection for things other than good stock work has been shown to lead to dogs with lowered abilities in all areas.

 

And take the time to learn from people who actually work the dogs, outside the kennel club trials which do not prove a dog's working ability and often lead to breeding of lesser quality dogs.

 

A good working dog needs good structure-which is more often than not quite different from what is put up in the show ring, a sound temperment is important too but there are other qualities that cannot be qualified in a show ring and these are the traits that are the essance of the Border Collie.

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I won't come back here for reasons you mentioned, but I will say this. I did take my 4 year old, Chi-Ann to herding training. I will NOT allow anyone to hit any of my dogs to train them. I cannot understand that type of training with any animal. It is definitely NOT necessary and many of us have successfully trained our dogs with positive training methods.

 

And, are your dogs tested for health issues like hips, eyes, etc? I am sure you have no clue what your dogs are carrying in their genes. Dogs that are bred to show, not only in the breed ring, but also for all other aspects of their abilities, should be bred for temperament, and physical wellness as well as aptitude to do the job intended for them.

 

You have to get your dogs from a breeder somewhere. What are they breeding for? Money or the betterment of the breed. That is one thing I breed for, the betterment of the breed, all aspects of it. You people have no clue what your are talking about, and I will leave it at that. You need to read about health issues prevalent to the Border Collie and then you can talk about what is right or wrong.

 

Goodbye to this board, I am glad I found out what you people are all about, and it isn't about the well being of the Border Collie breed.

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I am sure you have no clue what your dogs are carrying in their genes.

 

Ha! Ha! Ha!

That is some funny stuff.

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"I won't come back here for reasons you mentioned, but I will say this. I did take my 4 year old, Chi-Ann to herding training. I will NOT allow anyone to hit any of my dogs to train them. I cannot understand that type of training with any animal. It is definitely NOT necessary and many of us have successfully trained our dogs with positive training methods."

 

And I've seen obedience, agility and show ring people correcting their dogs. Does that make those activities unacceptable?

 

"And, are your dogs tested for health issues like hips, eyes, etc?"

 

YES! Every working bred pup I've purchased or sold had all the apropriate health tests.

 

"I am sure you have no clue what your dogs are carrying in their genes."

 

Not true, not even close. I can go over the health history of many bloodlines. However, no one can know with certainty all the genes their dogs are hiding in their vast genetic code.

 

"Dogs that are bred to show, not only in the breed ring, but also for all other aspects of their abilities, should be bred for temperament, and physical wellness as well as aptitude to do the job intended for them."

 

Has the AKC brain washed you so badly that you really think the people who developed and refined the breed don't take working ability, health, structure and temperament into consideration? I can tell you that if you aren't working your dogs, YOU are leaving out the most critical part of the puzzle, "aptitude to do the job intended for them."

 

"You have to get your dogs from a breeder somewhere. What are they breeding for? Money or the betterment of the breed. That is one thing I breed for, the betterment of the breed, all aspects of it."

 

Shepherds breed to get the next generation of working partners. The largest puppy mills in the USA register AKC. In fact, the AKC makes it easier for pet stores to sell registered pups. Who is breeding for profit?

 

"You people have no clue what your are talking about, and I will leave it at that. You need to read about health issues prevalent to the Border Collie and then you can talk about what is right or wrong. "

 

Read about health issues? These boards stand behind and often are a driving force in developing new health tests.

 

"Goodbye to this board, I am glad I found out what you people are all about, and it isn't about the well being of the Border Collie breed."

 

The very purpose of these boards is to preserve the breed we love. I'm tired of the AKC's paternal attitude that it is going to somehow save breeds from the very people who created them. It smacks of 19th century ideas that caused the suffering of countless humans and animals alike.

 

And BTW, I questioned whether you were a troll because you claim to have been competing in conformation for decades, yet you spelled the very name of the sport incorrectly.

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Chi-Ann's Mom,

You come baqck with a very negative attitude.

 

One main difference is that if the dogs are truely worked hard many genetic faults show up in the dog not working 'right'. That is the type of testing that made the breed as healthy as it is today. Since the advent of bench showing I have seen more health problems arise in the breed from a lack of selection for work. And while many working breeders do do health testing they do not feel the NEED to brag about it and use it as the main selling point for their pups-the working ability is the main selling point.

 

And if you went to an abusive trainer, either you need another trainer or a better dog that is not trying to harrass the stock too much.

 

There is MUCH more to working ability than a simple herding instinct test. And Kennel Club trials are not a good test of a dog's ability to handle livestock.

 

And as for breeding for money there again AKC pups bring much higher prices than good working bred pups, so who is breeding for money???

 

And if you had taken the time to read my first post you would notice that sound temperment and structure are important for working dogs and that the show ring does not put up sound structure more often than not. (I have many friends who show and am familiar with the show ring too, just choose a better selection method for my dogs)

 

I suspect you will find that many people on this board are far more knowledgable and informed on genetic issues and general dog knowledge,especially on behavioural issues than the vast majority of people in the show world. Stick around and be willing to learn instead of having the typical show attitude.

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I've seen first hand a "border collie" with absolutely no talent on stock win "best of breed" in a conformation... To me, that isn't a border collie, just a seemingly well built, pretty marked dog. How does that sit well for the breed?

 

I also had a conformation person tell me that KZ wouldn't be able to herd because "she has bad flanks," meaning her back end was "too narrow" and she wouldn't be able to turn quickly on stock. Y'all have no idea how hard I laughed at that since KZ's been working stock all summer and can turn faster than any other dog, bcs included, that trains there. So tell me, why should KZ be shunned when she's perfectly healthy, passes all current health tests, works stock with a good eye (even if her confidence does need work), and has a remarkable temperament with other animals and people (including children)? Not that I would show her in the conformation ring anyway, I'm just saying what we think the dog should look like in order to do the job doesn't match up to the reality. Just look at the English Bulldog and tell me where that's gotten us, a breed that can't do the original job and needs help to procreate or the breed would die. Or perhaps the pug with breathing and skin issues. Or the American GSD with a rump that slopes so much that it caused problems when running. When we breed for looks, we lose the essence of the breed and can actually cause the severe health issues we were trying to avoid, or whole new ones instead.

 

I'm done now. There's my rant for the day.

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I also had a conformation person tell me that KZ wouldn't be able to herd because "she has bad flanks," meaning her back end was "too narrow" and she wouldn't be able to turn quickly on stock. Y'all have no idea how hard I laughed at that since KZ's been working stock all summer and can turn faster than any other dog, bcs included, that trains there.

 

Yes, this is just one aspect of how conformation showing, without a working test, messes up many breeds. Another breed that can suffer in the show ring is the whippet. I have a friend who owned whippets, would breed a litter maybe once every 4-5 years and would 'test' her dogs at whippet races occasionally. She never showed her dogs in conformation and was anti-AKC. She had similar experiences in which she would be told that her dogs were not 'correct' for the show ring for some minor conformational flaw (according to AKC standards), but her dogs did very well when they raced. In general, many AKC whippets could not match the racing whippets when tested on the field.

 

I cringe when I hear the AKC argument that a dog should be built in such-and-such a way because 'form follows function". Yes, "form follows function", but the AKC has lost sight of the 'function'.

 

Jovi

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And BTW, I questioned whether you were a troll because you claim to have been competing in conformation for decades, yet you spelled the very name of the sport incorrectly.

 

Snap! hahahahaha B)

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And BTW, I questioned whether you were a troll because you claim to have been competing in conformation for decades, yet you spelled the very name of the sport incorrectly.

 

 

 

get 'em, Liz.

 

:lol:

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I cringe when I hear the AKC argument that a dog should be built in such-and-such a way because 'form follows function". Yes, "form follows function", but the AKC has lost sight of the 'function'.

 

Jovi

Yes to argue that "form follows function", and then breed in the hope it also works the other way round, is the pinnacle of stupidity in my opinion.

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Yes to argue that "form follows function", and then breed in the hope it also works the other way round, is the pinnacle of stupidity in my opinion.

 

Oh YES! You said it WAAYY better than I did.

 

Jovi

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From does follow function but when breed ring showing is involved, that becomes the function and the original function is often the thing lost in order to improve the liverstarer effect

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Dear Doggers,

I've never been tempted by conformation but have sometimes thought to take the CGC test just to fail it.

(I wouldn't sign their pledge and my dogs don't sit on command.)

 

But, I'm not quite that perverse. The CGC's not an awful idea - dogs with some response to their owners' wishes are better off than dogs with none. Some people, like the OP, inflate the importance of the CGC certificate. Some dog fanciers may have never have seen a dog that can safely and happily accompany a human off leash pretty near anywhere. They may not believe such dogs exist.

 

Donald McCaig

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Oh but how about 16 off lead????

(slight hi jack)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=qFP28ANXLLA&vq=medium

Cool. Heel, schmeel. These dogs (and their owner) have it right. Dogs need "come", "sit", (or "down") and "stay" right now, every time. The rest is window dressing.

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