Barbie Collies

[muddy bob]

Me either, Sue. I need a dog that can save my sorry ass.

 

muddy

[Rosanne]

deleted

[kelpiegirl]

And that is what you get when you breed for the current "winner". You may get some nice dogs, but the phrase "flash in the pan" comes to mind. I also cringe at breeding animals with known epilepsy in the lines- much less doubling up on it!

Julie

[Rosanne]

It is scary. And to do it knowingly just blows my mind!

Unfortunately it's not JUST sports breeders with epilepsy in the lines, and very few breeders of any sort seem willing to admit that THEIR precious breeding animal might just carry a part of the lethal combination.

 

So far as I know, neither of the above-mentioned sports kennels have produced it in recent years, but I won't support them on moral grounds.

[Deb Mickey]

post from tumblehome

The days of a "real" AKC dual championship are dead and gone.

I agree that's pretty much true of the original meaning of the term. In my day (showing my age here) a dual championship consisted of a combination of a breed and working championship, not a performance championship. Found mainly in the sporting breeds or hounds, the dog had to have a Field Trial Championship with a breed championship to be considered dual titled. An attempt to honor both the reason why the breed was developed (working) and the soundness of the dog's structure.

 

Flat coated retrievers and brittanys are the few that I've heard of that are still "whole" enough to earn this distinction.

 

AK Dog Doc - Interesting you brought up beagles and their ability to scent. I know of a couple who use bloodhounds in search and rescue. I asked them if show-bred bloodhounds have the same ability to scent as bloodhounds bred from working lines and they said they found no difference. I find that hard to believe and I'm sure the same results would have been found if the study you mentioned was on bloodhounds.

 

Lately I've been watching a number of border collies start their herding careers and it's been real interesting to see the level of innate herding talent & stock sense the dogs bring to the round ring. These dogs come from all sources - working bred, show bred, sports bred, rescue, and from mom & pop breedings. Of course, all dogs have differing levels of skill & talent, but as I watch I wonder if what I'm seeing is true working intent, or the just the thrill of the chase, or serious prey drive (let me eat them) kept just under control. I wonder how their breeding (for sport, working, pet, etc.) is impacting the dog's instinct to herd. It will be interesting to me to see how these dogs progress. (as you can see I love this kind of stuff!).

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Rosanne D.:

Comebye is doubling up on lines known to have epilepsy in them, which scares the heck out of me. Also, she's known to be difficult to deal with, the dogs are all square, squat things, she breeds for color (merles anyone?), and most of them are nasty around other dogs to boot.

Wow! I know several Comebye dogs in agility and had no idea there was an increased risk of epilepsy. I haven't heard that at all! Has the breeder been lucky so far in not producing epileptic pups? I haven't noticed the dogs being real square and squat but someone with a few Comebye dogs did mention that Quinn was significantly finer boned than their dogs. I've seen some of them not being crazy about other dogs but none of them have been anything more than rude hot air, nothing that ever caused me concern.

 

Hope you had fun at your Eagles game

[Rosanne]

post deleted

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Rosanne D.:

Oh, there are TONS of Comebye dogs in agility! I could name at least a dozen right off the top of my head. They seem like a fad to me (Fluffy does real well, so I'll buy her brother!), and I don't know what her long-term breeding goals are at all! Does she do obedience? Breed? Agility? From her website it's hard to tell. . .

Yes, they're very popular around here and many are doing well in agility and obedience. Some obedience people feel her dogs are too "high" or "drivey" for the upper levels of competition. A few of the ones I know are extremely hard for their handlers to run in agility due to their speed and intensity. She breeds for both sports and I know she also does some herding herself, AKC I'm pretty sure. One Comebye dog just did really well at the National Frisbee competition. Something I hear from people who have her dogs is she is very, very helpful to them with any questions or concerns they have about their puppies or dogs.

 

She also has unilateral deafness in her lines. (Jen Pinder's Static is a uni').

 

Gee, I hadn't heard that either. For that matter, I doubt if any of my friends with her dogs have.

[tumblehome]

I agree that's pretty much true of the original meaning of the term. In my day (showing my age here) a dual championship consisted of a combination of a breed and working championship, not a performance championship. Found mainly in the sporting breeds or hounds, the dog had to have a Field Trial Championship with a breed championship to be considered dual titled. An attempt to honor both the reason why the breed was developed (working) and the soundness of the dog's structure.

 

Flat coated retrievers and brittanys are the few that I've heard of that are still "whole" enough to earn this distinction.[/QB]

 

 

I was referring to Labs and goldens specifically but yeah, some breeds can still achieve a conformation and a field championship. I know German Shorthairs are fairly consistent in producing dual champions.

 

I doubt flatties have much hope though, since they are retrievers and must acquire at least one win and some number of points in an open all-breed trial. This means going up against Labs, which are of course the border collies of the retriever trial world. Although if even one flattie can do it under US rules, that's more than a Lab or golden can claim!

Chris O

[giddymonster]

Hey Rosanne,

 

I guess if you feel you should be trashing me on a public forum then you ought to have solid facts to back up your mouth.

I'd like to see that list of all those seizure dogs you said I have produced. If you understood the value of line breeding maybe you would shut up. You do know that this breed was founded on inbreeding? Right, sure you do. You seem to imply that I never outcross. And deafness, let's see... I went public with that 9, NINE years ago. I have been instrumental in convincing other BC people and breeders to BAER test their dogs. Sorry, I can't take credit for bringing deafness into the BC, it's a problem that is there just like any other genetic problem. But I do BAER test ALL my dogs and litters that I produce. I have a collection of pedigrees from herding lines here in the US, Canadian dogs, OZ and UK dogs all affected by deafness. It's been around a long time. I also would not breed a dog if it was genetically affected with anything. I trust that you know every pedigree and every BC that has ever been produced?? Drifter, a totally clean pedigree right? You know every single dog that has come down through the years in his pedigree and they all have stellar health? Right. So you paid $300 for him...that gives you the right to trash breeders? My first herding BC purchased almost 2 decades ago cost me $400, and wow, the big hat even did hips and eyes on his dogs.

 

"They seem like a fad to me (Fluffy does real well, so I'll buy her brother!), and I don't know what her long-term breeding goals are at all! Does she do obedience? Breed? Agility? From her website it's hard to tell. . ."

 

Have you ever had a conversation with me?... would I ever want to converse with you? A fad... almost 15 years of a fad.

 

Back when I started breeding and was studying genetics and pedigrees you were probably busy playing with your Barbie dolls, maybe that's the fascination you have now with wanting to trash breeders and 'Barbie' collies, you didn't get along with your dolls? Their proportions were off, maybe that's it?

 

Just remember, you slander people on an open forum that sets you up for legal actions against you. You also agreed to the BC Boards agreement when you joined. You are in direct violation of that agreement, something else that should certainly make you proud.

 

Regards,

Janine Jordan

Comebye Border Collies

[prosperia]

Hmmm, like I said. . . spies? clarivoiant? I guess the world will never know.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by prosperia:

Hmmm, like I said. . . spies? clarivoiant? I guess the world will never know.

Well, these are public boards with a lot of members. I would have been surprised if Janine didn't hear about this thread. I know 5 people who have her dogs and that's just off the top of my head. There are a lot of Comebye dogs in agility. I've been out of obedience for a while, but I know of one who is doing great there as well.

[Lenajo]

Definately spies LOL ...but it's nice to know they are worried about the working world's opinion. 1 small step forward!

[SoloRiver]

Rosanne hasn't said anything legally actionable.

 

I don't know about a lot of Comebye dogs in agility, but from a tour of the website it looks like there are a lot of Comebye dogs, period.

 

I can't speak to this example specifically, but I do think the "fad" phenomenon is real. People see a dog doing well in agility, they want one bred just like it. Which would make sense, except that (a) ANY Border Collie should be great at agility, and certainly talented enough for the needs of most people competing in agility (let's face it, 99.999% of the people out there will never get anywhere near either "World Team") ( there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of evidence that dogs bred specifically for agility are actually better at agility and © the top handlers out there are top handlers -- and consistently so -- because of their own chops and training skills.

 

I guess I just really don't get the whole "breeding for sports" thing.

[BeezSK]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

I guess I just really don't get the whole "breeding for sports" thing.

x2, I know a few people that consistently go to AAC Nationals and place very high. Most of them are getting dogs from working breeders, not breeding their agility progeny.

[BeezSK]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

Rosanne hasn't said anything legally actionable.

This is a US of A thing isn't it? You read anything that might offend you and the first thing you do is launch a lawsuit right (especially if it's damn Christmas trees in an airport)?

And I agree, the lawsuit would have no merit and even if it did good luck suing for something that happened on an internet message board.

[Rosanne]

Um, let's see, if she had actually READ my posts, it would be obvious that I said there is epilepsy BEHIND her lines, which is, indeed, a fact. Maybe not the direct dogs in the pedigrees, but certainly close relatives, which is too close for me. For example, two different sons of Trevwen Rock produced epilepsy, one almost 50% of his pups before he was neutered.

And I also specifically mentioned that I didn't know of any dogs she had produced that seized, in fact I said I think she somehow escaped the genes that produced it.

 

I never EVER said you had PRODUCED anything other than a uni, only that it was back in the lines somewhere.

I am stating facts as I know them. That is never slander. Health information should be public information, and opinions will always be opinions; perfectly legal.

 

It seems to me only someone overly concerned with the public perception of their dogs would even bother to post such a biting reply, especially on a board almost entirely populated by working people, who have no interest whatsoever with sports-bred dogs.

 

Oh, and 15 years ago I was already training my first dog (a flat-coated retriever). I put 7 breed ring points on her, trained her in obedience, basic field trials, put an ADCH on her, and made the USDAA Finals. Twice.

I had one Barbie as a kid. She collected dust in a corner.

 

By the way, I am blocking you. You clearly only showed up to try to defend against someone's opinion, and since I am friendly with quite a few people who actually own Comebye dogs, I don't wish to argue with you further.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

I can't speak to this example specifically, but I do think the "fad" phenomenon is real. People see a dog doing well in agility, they want one bred just like it.

Indeed. Look out, Kelpies.

 

RDM

[kelpiegirl]

Indeed Kelpies are in "in" thing these days. In Canada they are usually on the world team because the BC was omitted. Many people like Kelpies, and perhaps would like to have one, but I tell people, if you want a BC, but different, just get a BC- you will end up with one anyway. We squeaked out of AKC recognition in 1997, but if it comes up again, and rumor has it, it will, I don't think there will be enough folks to stop it, so it may be that the Kelpie will again be in the AKC.

Julie

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

the top handlers out there are top handlers -- and consistently so -- because of their own chops and training skills.

 

I guess I just really don't get the whole "breeding for sports" thing.

I'm not justifying breeding for sports, but in addition to the top competitors being especially talented trainers and handlers, they usually have especially talented, driven and athletic dogs. The reason BC's hugely dominate at their height divisions is exactly because they are so great at this sport. Some top competitors not only carefully choose their dogs, but rehome those who don't measure up to some very high standards. Those World Team and National Championship dogs are the best of the best in agility. The sport is a real team effort.

 

I do agree that for most of us in agility, a good BC in general should more than meet our needs. And training and handling a very smart, very fast dog is not without its challenges. I know Quinn would be able to go a lot farther with a different handler and trainer. Not sure if he'd make it to the highest levels, but I'm definitely the weakest link on our team.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Shetlander:

I'm not justifying breeding for sports, but in addition to the top competitors being especially talented trainers and handlers, they usually have especially talented, driven and athletic dogs. The reason BC's hugely dominate at their height divisions is exactly because they are so great at this sport. Some top competitors not only carefully choose their dogs, but rehome those who don't measure up to some very high standards.

And how lame is that? For a dog sport? A dog jumping over pvc and running through tunnels, and people rehome them for not doing THAT well enough??

 

Some "team" sport.

 

RDM

[Sue R]

This is a US of A thing isn't it? You read anything that might offend you and the first thing you do is launch a lawsuit right?

I think it's just a general, "I'm offended" thing - the last time or two I remember someone threatening legal action here, it was a conformation or sports breeder up in arms over perceived offense from the working community, and at least one "offendee" was from Great Britain. I do admit that many folks in the USA are lawsuit-happy, and it's a shame, IMO.

 

I don't think I'd be interested in any breeder who advertises on www.puppysites.com, which includes such "stellar" breeders as Swafford (link no longer opens his site) and Wildrose. I doubt that any serious breeder of stock-working dogs would list there. The emphasis for most listings there is on showing, AKC, performance, pet, and color. To each his own...

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by MrSnappy:

And how lame is that? For a dog sport? A dog jumping over pvc and running through tunnels, and people rehome them for not doing THAT well enough??

 

Some "team" sport.

Again, not justifying... This is at the highest levels and these are often people who make their living in the sport through instruction and seminars. Most dogs in agility are people's pets, first and foremost.

 

I just started lessons with Quinn on sheep and when I mentioned that I had a sheltie at home, the instructor asked me if I or anyone I knew might be interested in a sheltie about 4 or 5 years old. The dog's owner started sheep herding with the sheltie who did not have much instinct/ability, so she bought a Border Collie. Now that owner wants to rehome the sheltie. Not a professional. Not a farmer who needed a good working dog. Someone starting out in a hobby whose pet was not good enough now wants to rehome the dog.

 

I felt very bad, thinking of my own little sheltie who washed out of sports due to nerves. I couldn't imagine giving her up. Shelties may not be much good at working stock, but they excel as companions.

 

I think you will find rehoming dogs who "don't work out" in any sport or activity among a minority of participants.

[Sue R]

There are a lot of folks in the stockdog (sheep and cattle) community who routinely rehome trial prospect dogs that don't make the grade. I think that's particularly true of those who trial at the very highest levels. I hate to guess how many are "put down" or turned into shelters who don't work out as farm/ranch dogs.

 

Just as in performance sports, some people (especially those who do make a living training, doing clinics, etc.) who compete at the highest stockdog trial levels are not able (won't?) keep dogs that can't consistently perform at that very highest level. As long as they rehome them well and suitably, is there a problem?

 

There are also folks like Julie P. on these boards who have a houseful of dogs because the ones that didn't work out or are retired, still have a great home with her for life. Those that might do better in another home may well be rehomed if it's for the dog's sake, not the owner's convenience.

 

Someone starting out in a hobby whose pet was not good enough now wants to rehome the dog.

I think that, to rehome your pet because you started a new hobby and it didn't excel at that sounds pretty self-centered.

 

My dogs may or may not be very good cowdogs but they will always be our dogs. I don't think I could even consider "getting rid of" a dog because it wasn't performing a dog sport or hobby at the level I might want to compete at. That seems kind of selfish to me but, if the dog is rehomed into a great situation (where I think it would likely be better off), what's the harm in that?

 

I'm often grateful that competition for it's own sake is not one of my goals. I think it often makes a person lose sight of more important priorities.

 

I expect this to be a topic of strong personal opinion.

[MrSnappy]

Yes I know this. I've been doing agility for a decade. However, I never pass up an opportunity to point out how pathetic it is that agility dogs get rehomed for not leaping through a tire well enough, or however else I can make it seem more diminuitive.

 

Having said that, I am not keen on how freely the hobby herding types go through their dogs either. I mean, they don't make their living off their sheep; most of them get sheep for their dogs. So the rate at which they plow through "potential" trial dogs is sort of creepy.

 

And don't get me started on flyball people!

 

RDM