Retention of Herding Instinct

[Geoffrey]

I've been wondering this for a while. Generally, people say that the surest way of getting a dog with instinct is to get one from herding/working parents.

 

What about with mixes? Is it possible for a dog to be any good at herding, if the only herding dog in his lineage was a few generations back?

 

My cattle dog/chow/hound/shepherd mix is what got me wondering. I seriously doubt he's any good at herding, but is it possible for him to still have the instinct?

[fooshuman]

I dont know for sure, but if the gene was dominant surely it would be possible. Just my uneducated guess

[Snorri the Priest]

My two are the offspring of working dogs, with a good reputation locally as working farm dogs. However, I keep them as household pets. The older one, Kali (12 this month) has never shown much interest in herding, the younger, Snorri (8) is terrified by stock animals (he's an orthodox coward), but has the circling moves well-established in his repertoire (he tries to round up his brother, on the beach).

 

Other than this, and a tendency to try to stop visitors from leaving, they don't show a lot of inherited ability :eek: , but a lot of that may be down to their pet lifestyle!

 

Snorri

[lrayburn]

I think it depends on the mix and the dog. My Pip is a BC/ACD cross and showed nice herding instinct her first time on sheep. Now that doesn't mean she'll be a good working dog but she does have instinctive herding behavior. On the other hand, a lot of ACK dogs have certified "herding instinct", too .

Lisa

[kajarrel]

Geoffrey,

The simple answer is that "instinct" and ability are really two different things. This is because there are so many pieces that have to be in place, so to speak, to make a good herding dog and these things are not controlled by a single "gene." So, for instance, your cross-bred dog might be sensitive to movement and sound, and might even circle sheep when exposed, but might not have an innate sense of balance or sufficient power to hold and move livestock effectively. So "yes" it's possible for you dog to exhibit some herding-type behaviors although it's a cross, but it's extremely unlikely it will work as well as a working bred border collie.

 

Kim

[Geoffrey]

Thats pretty much what I expected.

 

Possible instinct, probably very little ability.

 

(I have no intentions of herding, I was just curious, lol)

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

The thing is that there is not a "herding gene" which we could say, yes it will be inherited under XYZ conditions or no it won't. It's a complex set of behavioral tendencies and abilities both physical and mental. Moreover, there are different expectations depending on the person you are talking to, as to what competency on stock really entails. In other words, what the complete picture must include, minimally.

 

The Border collie was selected to do a certain very specific kind of work that sets it apart from every other "herding" or livestock working breed. When it is not selected for that work, chances are very good that important pieces will drop out of that generation. Other pieces may "hang on" and be evident for many, many more generations but others may be gone forever or at the very least, very difficult to recover.

 

Mixes of dogs traditionally selected for livestock work are going to be more likely to be useful working dogs, even if random bred. So, like Lisa's dog or the Aussie/BC mix I had here last spring, you might be able to train the dog to some level. But, to continue to produce such dogs, you've always got to have some way to measure whether your selected parents have what you are looking for, or you'll even lose what you started out with.

[AK dog doc]

FWIW, Ali (BCxWhippet) has excellent eye, a natural gather and good balance. The only time he was at stock in a training environment he was iffy on drive, but we haven't been to stock since our coach moved away, so who even knows what he'd be like now. His mother is a working stock dog (imported), and he followed her around the farm and copied her for the first year of his life, so I can't say how much of what ability he shows is due to inborn traits and how much is learned from following mom. However, I was quite surprised that he had ANY ability, TBH.

[Heppers]

Both of Daisy's parents worked sheep and cattle on a farm. Daisy has no herding instinct in her whatsoever !!

 

She never ever herds anything. I think Daisy may be a Border Collie in disguise !!

[kelpiegirl]

Rebecca:

"The Border collie was selected to do a certain very specific kind of work that sets it apart from every other "herding" or livestock working breed."

 

This piqued my interest Are you talking about eye?

 

Julie

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

No, I'm talking about literally a specific type of work - managing large hill flocks with minimal manpower and just a few dogs.

 

All the pieces existed in individual dogs before the demand for a single dog that could handle typical hill chores. Eye is just a teeny part of it. they weren't looking at the dog, they looked at the end result - the more complete the package, the fewer dogs had to be used (and fed).

 

When the trial competitions started displaying and promoting dogs with the complete package, the economic advantage of such a dog quickly created a demand that set the overall type of the breed within a few generations. The ISDS style trial is still the only real breed standard we use - and it's served us well. We've gone from a highly heterogenous gene pool to one that is both consistent and healthy, in just 100 years or so. We've now got a breed that produces individuals or lines that can excel in pretty much any type of stock work, take a wide variety of training methods, and even make great pet dogs under the right circumstances.

 

The development and maintenence of this breed has never been about looking for certain behaviors (a la "instinct testing"). It's been about promoting dogs that can get the job done - and breeding has been focused on creating subsequent generations that can do the job as well or better.

[juliepoudrier]

To those of you who think your dogs have no "instinct" I would suggest that you can't really say that unless you've actually tried the dog on stock--more than once. My best work/trial dog does not "herd" cats, chickens, children. She has a great ball drive. If you never saw her around livestock, you'd think she had no instinct. But put sheep or cattle in the picture, and it's a whole 'nother story....

 

J.

[Jennifer Glen]

I've got one that doesn't herd cats or children or even play with balls and he's won 3 open trials.

Jenny

[karrie]

Sam herds mice. :eek: Currently, he is working on the bunny coming to him. It probably will not be long before he figures how to open the pen and let her out so they can play. He still attempts to get the best of the cat but doesn't trully try to herd her. He seriously just wants to play and since she thinks that is beneath her we get some chases going on. He chases her, then next thing you know she is chasing him. But he is getting on her good side ~maybe~ ; she is allowing him the occassionaly sniff of the last bit of fur on her tail and one inch from her face look.

[fooshuman]

Oh heheh just reread what i posted I meant the herding breed (B.C., Aussie, etc.) *gene*was dominant. I can with all honesty say that i did learn a few things from this post

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I dont know what Kirby was crossed with but, there is no doubt in my mind he could herd. He had beautiful runs and turns. There are times I feel real bad he was in my life before I could start doing dog sports.